Harvesting bottle yeast

[McGlothan]

Hi,

I harvested the yeast from 3 bottles of my homebrew about 4 days ago. I pitched the dregs into a weak wort of 1/3 cup DME to 2 cups water. It fermented out nicely and I have now put it into the fridge to crash cool it. I want to step it up now to a larger starter, then separate it into 3 mason jars to store in the fridge for use with later batches. The small yeast layer on the bottom has unhealthy brown yeast on the very bottom and very white healthy yeast sitting on top. How do I separate these from one another when I step up to the next size? Thanks for the help!

Shawn

 

[Wig]

Are you sure the brown layer is bad yeast and not some kind of trub? I notice when I use DME in my starters I usually get 'debris'. Seems like undissoled DME or something. Never has negativley affected my starters/beer.

But to your question on seperation. At this small scale I, in my limited experience, can't think of a simple method. Having layers like that i think about harvesting from a fermentor. When you want to harvest from it you add sanitized water, swirl it up, then decant when the trub mostly settles.

On the smaller scale it seems more difficult to create seperation, but maybe the same principle would apply. Since it is settled, pour off excess liquid. Add sanitized water, swirl and see how it all settles out. if the dark layer settles first (which it sounds like it might since it is on the bottom, currently), pour off the good yeast still in suspension into some wort.

If it were me and I questioned the other layer, I'd use my innoculation loop and pick out some good yeast and make a new starter/slant/plate from it. You could use a santized paper clip. But your equipment would dictate what you can do.

 

[Rudolph]

When I harvested, I did it from just one bottle and into only 100ml of DME wort at 1.020. I didn't separate it though before stepping it up to 2L and didn't have any problems.

If you do want to rinse and separate though many recommend using distilled (boiled and cooled or pressure cooked and cooled). How much though would depend of several factors. For a small amount of yeast (or really any amount) the taller and narrower the bottle/jar, the better the separation layers. The key would be to add enough water and leaving enough head space in the jar (10% headspace is what Chris White of White Labs recommends) to break up the yeast flocs to obtain the best separation. He also recommends a high water to yeast ratio.

In short, go tall and narrow with your container. The other option would be to get one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatory_funnel and try to convince your neighbors and friends you don't run a meth lab.

 

[McGlothan]

Ok,

Thanks to both of you for the very good info. It took a while to get responses and the two I got were all I needed. So heres what I did. I decanted the first concoction into a slightly stronger (1/2 cup DME to 2 cups H20) wort. I didn't bother separating because the layers were so small as Wig suggested. I pitched all of the yeast to a narrow tall flask with stronger wort so I could:

1. Make that into a larger starter and let it ferment out. Then wash in that larger vessel with sanitized H20, split into mason jars, and put them to sleep in the fridge until use.

2. Decant this starter when its done, add yeast and three mason jars worth of sanitized water to larger vessel, swirl. Then re-distribute the yeast/water solution back to the three jars. Would this work?

 

[scoundrel]

Ok,

Thanks to both of you for the very good info. It took a while to get responses and the two I got were all I needed. So heres what I did. I decanted the first concoction into a slightly stronger (1/2 cup DME to 2 cups H20) wort. I didn't bother separating because the layers were so small as Wig suggested. I pitched all of the yeast to a narrow tall flask with stronger wort so I could:

1. Make that into a larger starter and let it ferment out. Then wash in that larger vessel with sanitized H20, split into mason jars, and put them to sleep in the fridge until use.

2. Decant this starter when its done, add yeast and three mason jars worth of sanitized water to larger vessel, swirl. Then re-distribute the yeast/water solution back to the three jars. Would this work?

It will work and it sounds like a good plan. I have a question. What is the beer/yeast you're propagating?

 

[Rudolph]

When you say you added it to a larger starter you mean 1/2 cup DME to 2 cups H2O as a ratio correct? Not 2 cups total? I ask because when stepping generally the steps should be factors of 10. Meaning, the first step of 100-200 mL of 1.020 wort and a second of 1L to 2L of 1.040 (sorry I use metric). I agree with your higher gravity second step as the yeast aren't as stressed at this point as they are from the bottle.

From a bottle your steps should be dependent on your final starter size. For higher OG beers you'll want a bigger starter than a lower OG. So if you'l only need a 1L starter to pitch then your first step (of 2 steps) will only need to be at 100 mL. Does that make sense?

Okay, now to discuss your steps. For your step 1: you say wash but I'm assuming you mean rinse as when washing you use acid not just water. Secondly, I would recommend using as few containers as possible to reduce the likelihood of infection. So I would step up to my final pitching rate, put it in the fridge for a few days to let everything settle, then decant the beer on top (in smaller starters for lower OG beers this step is probably not necessary). After you get your starter to your pitching rate check it out to see if you still have your original issue. If you do, then rinse as described earlier but try and minimize the number of containers. An additionally advantage of 1 jar vs 3 would be that your layers would be thicker and thus easier to separate.

 

[McGlothan]

It will work and it sounds like a good plan. I have a question. What is the beer/yeast you're propagating?

Well,

I'm harvesting california ale yeast that thoroughly fermented a high gravity batch that I made and it turned out great. Although a good yeast, it is very common. Im attempting to perfect the yeast harvesting thing because I have two bombers of Rogue in my fridge that both have a nice 1/4 inch of Pacman yeast ready to harvest. Ive heard a lot about this strain and I choose to use this on my future high gravity Double/Imperial Ales and IPAs, or whatever else I can use it in.

 

[scoundrel]

When you say you added it to a larger starter you mean 1/2 cup DME to 2 cups H2O as a ratio correct? Not 2 cups total? I ask because when stepping generally the steps should be factors of 10. Meaning, the first step of 100-200 mL of 1.020 wort and a second of 1L to 2L of 1.040 (sorry I use metric). I agree with your higher gravity second step as the yeast aren't as stressed at this point as they are from the bottle.

From a bottle your steps should be dependent on your final starter size. For higher OG beers you'll want a bigger starter than a lower OG. So if you'l only need a 1L starter to pitch then your first step (of 2 steps) will only need to be at 100 mL. Does that make sense?

Okay, now to discuss your steps. For your step 1: you say wash but I'm assuming you mean rinse as when washing you use acid not just water. Secondly, I would recommend using as few containers as possible to reduce the likelihood of infection. So I would step up to my final pitching rate, put it in the fridge for a few days to let everything settle, then decant the beer on top (in smaller starters for lower OG beers this step is probably not necessary). After you get your starter to your pitching rate check it out to see if you still have your original issue. If you do, then rinse as described earlier but try and minimize the number of containers. An additionally advantage of 1 jar vs 3 would be that your layers would be thicker and thus easier to separate.

Please don't take this as snarky or disrespectful but the advice you're giving feels like straight out of a book. Yeast don't care about 100ml or 1.020. Yeast are living creatures that don't think in factors of 10. Use common sense by starting with low gravity wort from 1.020-1.040. Then step it up to a higher gravity then pitch it. Use Mr. Malty's calculator as a general guideline. If counting cells gives you piece of mind go for it, but focus on having enough viable yeast for good fermentation. If you're a bit over, the yeast won't penalize you with off flavors.

 

[scoundrel]

Well,

I'm harvesting california ale yeast that thoroughly fermented a high gravity batch that I made and it turned out great. Although a good yeast, it is very common. Im attempting to perfect the yeast harvesting thing because I have two bombers of Rogue in my fridge that both have a nice 1/4 inch of Pacman yeast ready to harvest. Ive heard a lot about this strain and I choose to use this on my future high gravity Double/Imperial Ales and IPAs, or whatever else I can use it in.

Ok. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't wheat yeast, which is somewhat volatile. Pacman is a good yeast and I think your approach is good but try to use the yeast within a couple months if possible. It may last longer but if you're not doing long term storage with slants, it's probably good to use it up. If it were me I would come up with a good house recipe or two and use this yeast often.

 

[McGlothan]

When you say you added it to a larger starter you mean 1/2 cup DME to 2 cups H2O as a ratio correct? Not 2 cups total? I ask because when stepping generally the steps should be factors of 10. Meaning, the first step of 100-200 mL of 1.020 wort and a second of 1L to 2L of 1.040 (sorry I use metric). I agree with your higher gravity second step as the yeast aren't as stressed at this point as they are from the bottle.

From a bottle your steps should be dependent on your final starter size. For higher OG beers you'll want a bigger starter than a lower OG. So if you'l only need a 1L starter to pitch then your first step (of 2 steps) will only need to be at 100 mL. Does that make sense?

Okay, now to discuss your steps. For your step 1: you say wash but I'm assuming you mean rinse as when washing you use acid not just water. Secondly, I would recommend using as few containers as possible to reduce the likelihood of infection. So I would step up to my final pitching rate, put it in the fridge for a few days to let everything settle, then decant the beer on top (in smaller starters for lower OG beers this step is probably not necessary). After you get your starter to your pitching rate check it out to see if you still have your original issue. If you do, then rinse as described earlier but try and minimize the number of containers. An additionally advantage of 1 jar vs 3 would be that your layers would be thicker and thus easier to separate.

I made the first starter with a (1/3 cup DME : 2 cups H20) ratio, poured the bottle yeast straight in. I assume this made it weak enough to not stress the yeast.
I made the first step up with a (1/2 cup DME : 2 cups H20) ratio. I cold crashed the first starter. I decanted the wort. I pitched the yeast into this new stronger wort but the same volume of liquid. It took off within 3 hours and looks like a healthy starter with creamy white krausen.
I do mean wash by the way. The only thing I am trying to accomplish is to have several jars of yeast equivalent to a white labs vial of yeast in my fridge to take out and make starters with a couple of days before brewing. Or earlier if they need to be stepped up more. I don't have a digital scale, just measuring cups to measure the amount of DME I am using, I am pretty much eyeballing and using my best judgement. I have had good luck using the 1/2 cup DME : 2 cups H20 ratio when making starters with white labs yeast vials. I have also heard it is pretty hard to over pitch as a home brewer. I am learning quickly and probably skipping some details along the way but I have been making good beer so far. I figure it will all come together in due time. Equipment, knowledge, etc.

 

[McGlothan]

Ok. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't wheat yeast, which is somewhat volatile. Pacman is a good yeast and I think your approach is good but try to use the yeast within a couple months if possible. It may last longer but if you're not doing long term storage with slants, it's probably good to use it up. If it were me I would come up with a good house recipe or two and use this yeast often.

I will try to use them as quick as I can, or give them away. Ive read they last up to six months and I have been at about 1 batch every two weeks. Thats 12 batches in 6 months so Im trying to build a stockpile of yeast. It is about a quarter of the cost of ingredients to buy it every time. Plus, its a lot of fun. You are saying a couple of months is when they should be used? This might change my plan

 

[Rudolph]

Please don't take this as snarky or disrespectful but the advice you're giving feels like straight out of a book. Yeast don't care about 100ml or 1.020. Yeast are living creatures that don't think in factors of 10. Use common sense by starting with low gravity wort from 1.020-1.040. Then step it up to a higher gravity then pitch it. Use Mr. Malty's calculator as a general guideline. If counting cells gives you piece of mind go for it, but focus on having enough viable yeast for good fermentation. If you're a bit over, the yeast won't penalize you with off flavors.

You wouldn't be to off the mark with the book thing scoundrel. I personally understand that the numbers I've given are just kind of rules of thumb to provide some guidelines just like Mr. Malty's Calculator (which ironically the creator co-wrote the book I referred to). I totally agree with you on not counting cells. Get it ball-park and error on the side of over-pitching.

 

[scoundrel]

You wouldn't be to off the mark with the book thing scoundrel. I personally understand that the numbers I've given are just kind of rules of thumb to provide some guidelines just like Mr. Malty's Calculator (which ironically the creator co-wrote the book I referred to). I totally agree with you on not counting cells. Get it ball-park and error on the side of over-pitching.

Hey buddy, for the record, I'm no expert and I truly appreciate your passion. Read the $@#$ out of anything you can get your hands on and by all means spread the word. Everything you said is accurate and my response would have been better to just say to do what you said but don't worry about being perfect. Cheers bro!