That looks like a good recipe. The amounts look good to me. I think the DME might be providing some nutrition to the yeast, so maybe you don't need anything else.
Gruit Mead
- Thread starter loveofrose
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Zymomancer
Well-Known Member
I'm really happy I found this thread after a few months of mostly ignoring the forums. The most gruit-related stuff I've done is "dry hop" some yarrow, wild bergamot, and sage in a cider, it was not the best pairing but certainly unique. I picked some more herbs and dried them (yarrow, mugwort) but never got around to using them, and have gotten the itch to jump into beermaking. A gruit mead or braggot has now been added to the very long list of things I want to brew, as well.
I'm particularly grateful for your article (https://denardbrewing.com/blog/post/gruit-mead/) spelling out some boil times and dosage for gruit herbs. I've seen a number of recipes with mixtures of herbs, or general guidelines, but not much specific that's backed up by direct experience.
A few months ago I compiled a bunch of info from various sources about gruit herbs and other herbs in brewing. I never really "finished" it (a lot of the information is absent or imprecise, namely suggested dosage) but I suppose it's a good time to go ahead and share it. If people are interested on contributing / correcting I can open it up to editing:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l4ZiEjVXSSoo0-9bUx0L4l2wrwqc532_GYO-_O7FBfQ/edit?usp=sharing
(Don't forget to scroll to the right to see sources and some guidelines)
If something is marked with "?" as a source it's probably just something I cobbled together from wikipedia or random mentions of someone putting that particular herb or spice in some sort of brew, so don't take it too seriously.
Also, if you want a commercial gruit sample, I don't know of any meads but Beau's brewing in Vanleek Hill (near Ottawa up here in the frozen wastes) has an entire series of gruit beers: Bog Water is one of my favourite beers in existence and I have a bottle of Original Gruit waiting to be tasted.
I'm particularly grateful for your article (https://denardbrewing.com/blog/post/gruit-mead/) spelling out some boil times and dosage for gruit herbs. I've seen a number of recipes with mixtures of herbs, or general guidelines, but not much specific that's backed up by direct experience.
A few months ago I compiled a bunch of info from various sources about gruit herbs and other herbs in brewing. I never really "finished" it (a lot of the information is absent or imprecise, namely suggested dosage) but I suppose it's a good time to go ahead and share it. If people are interested on contributing / correcting I can open it up to editing:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l4ZiEjVXSSoo0-9bUx0L4l2wrwqc532_GYO-_O7FBfQ/edit?usp=sharing
(Don't forget to scroll to the right to see sources and some guidelines)
If something is marked with "?" as a source it's probably just something I cobbled together from wikipedia or random mentions of someone putting that particular herb or spice in some sort of brew, so don't take it too seriously.
Also, if you want a commercial gruit sample, I don't know of any meads but Beau's brewing in Vanleek Hill (near Ottawa up here in the frozen wastes) has an entire series of gruit beers: Bog Water is one of my favourite beers in existence and I have a bottle of Original Gruit waiting to be tasted.
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
Thanks Zymomancer! I appreciate any knowledge we can accumulate here!
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
Day 5
Gravity 1.015. No need for extra nutrients. This will go dry on its own. Flavor is good, but I'm trying to access whether I need to dry hop with herbs or not. The problem is that I don't know what flavor each is contributing. Let's remedy that problem.
Gruit Herb Flavor Analysis
Since I will be dry hopping herbs, I need a simple taste analysis to determine what flavor is coming from where and what needs reinforcement. For this purpose, I'm simply taking a bit of the herbs and chewing them up to get the flavor (and hoping the stimulant effects aren't too much). I also tried a few extra herbs that I have in my toolbox. My notes below:
1. Sweet gale - A very mild wintergreen flavor with an astringency that implies a dry beverage. Good to balance a sweet beverage and give a nice cooling effect on the palette.
2. Yarrow - Extremely flowery with a honey-like component. A slight bitterness at the end, but it's almost like a bee pollen bitterness rather than hops.
3. Marsh Rosemary - Rosemary is the perfect description, only very mild in comparison to true Rosemary. It also has a small peat-like element in the aftertaste that you would not want to overdo.
4. Meadowsweet - A marshmallow like flowery flavor with a mellow, slightly tart finish. I would use this to reinforce a flowery aroma.
5. Mugwort - Definitely bitter, but not as bad as you would think. It also has a spicy note that could be nice to work with.
6. Horehound - Exactly like meadowsweet, but you would need triple the amount of horehound to get the same amount of flavor.
Based on the above, the current Gruit BOMM has lots of yarrow, appropriate amounts of Marsh Rosemary, but not enough Sweet Gale; therefore...
Dry hopped with 2.5 grams Sweet Gale in a sanitized muslin bag.
Gravity 1.015. No need for extra nutrients. This will go dry on its own. Flavor is good, but I'm trying to access whether I need to dry hop with herbs or not. The problem is that I don't know what flavor each is contributing. Let's remedy that problem.
Gruit Herb Flavor Analysis
Since I will be dry hopping herbs, I need a simple taste analysis to determine what flavor is coming from where and what needs reinforcement. For this purpose, I'm simply taking a bit of the herbs and chewing them up to get the flavor (and hoping the stimulant effects aren't too much). I also tried a few extra herbs that I have in my toolbox. My notes below:
1. Sweet gale - A very mild wintergreen flavor with an astringency that implies a dry beverage. Good to balance a sweet beverage and give a nice cooling effect on the palette.
2. Yarrow - Extremely flowery with a honey-like component. A slight bitterness at the end, but it's almost like a bee pollen bitterness rather than hops.
3. Marsh Rosemary - Rosemary is the perfect description, only very mild in comparison to true Rosemary. It also has a small peat-like element in the aftertaste that you would not want to overdo.
4. Meadowsweet - A marshmallow like flowery flavor with a mellow, slightly tart finish. I would use this to reinforce a flowery aroma.
5. Mugwort - Definitely bitter, but not as bad as you would think. It also has a spicy note that could be nice to work with.
6. Horehound - Exactly like meadowsweet, but you would need triple the amount of horehound to get the same amount of flavor.
Based on the above, the current Gruit BOMM has lots of yarrow, appropriate amounts of Marsh Rosemary, but not enough Sweet Gale; therefore...
Dry hopped with 2.5 grams Sweet Gale in a sanitized muslin bag.
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
Day 7
Gravity 1.005. A substantial tartness has become apparent due to the dryness. The sweet gale is also providing a nice wintergreen type note.
Added 6 oz of honey to balance the tartness (1.020). Vodka added to airlock.
Gravity 1.005. A substantial tartness has become apparent due to the dryness. The sweet gale is also providing a nice wintergreen type note.
Added 6 oz of honey to balance the tartness (1.020). Vodka added to airlock.
Makes perfect sense. Gruit herbs provide tartness as much as herbal flavors.
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
Day 11
Oh yeah! That's what I'm shooting for! Right now, it's room temp and still fermenting, but it has a cooling effect all the way down your throat. Extremely tasty! I can't wait to see how it is when clear.
Oh yeah! That's what I'm shooting for! Right now, it's room temp and still fermenting, but it has a cooling effect all the way down your throat. Extremely tasty! I can't wait to see how it is when clear.
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
Day 16
Began cold crashing.
Began cold crashing.
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
My previous attempt to make a honey bug resulted in mold only. How do I know? I streaked the culture on plates selective for yeast and grew no yeast. Success is only met after much failure. I repeat: Success is only met after much failure.
So what went wrong? Maybe too much honey. Honey is a hostile environment, so let's cut it back a bit. Also, maybe there was no viable yeast in the honey I chose. I can increase my chances by using multiple honey sources. Hopefully, at least one will have yeast. Let's try this again:
1. To a jar add the following:
-1/5 cup of honey from a mixture of summer Berry, OB, Meadowfoam, Acacia, and Tupelo varietals.
-4/5 cup ozarka spring water
I also made another ginger bug using only summer Berry honey as above plus a 2" price of ginger sliced thinly with the skin on.
So what went wrong? Maybe too much honey. Honey is a hostile environment, so let's cut it back a bit. Also, maybe there was no viable yeast in the honey I chose. I can increase my chances by using multiple honey sources. Hopefully, at least one will have yeast. Let's try this again:
1. To a jar add the following:
-1/5 cup of honey from a mixture of summer Berry, OB, Meadowfoam, Acacia, and Tupelo varietals.
-4/5 cup ozarka spring water
I also made another ginger bug using only summer Berry honey as above plus a 2" price of ginger sliced thinly with the skin on.
Maybe throw some apple slices in there (with skins).
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
The point is to isolate yeast from the honey.
SkeletorMob
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Hey love of rose how did you source your ginger? When I tried a ginger bug it didn't fail miserably but it was infected. I never got mold but i got a rancid smell in one recipe and a small slow ferment to the other. I used organic ginger root from the health store
2 tbl sliced root skin on with 2 tbl of cane sugar daily (as per Zimmerman's instructions).
I like the idea of the raw honey starter, I think I will try that along with an experiment with grapes from a friends vineyard. I really wanted to get into the wild ferment but had to save my recipes with a known strain. I've never homebrewed before haha I love Zimmerman's book, it got me diving in head first with joy! (See thread first batch need advice if your curious at the first attempt)
2 tbl sliced root skin on with 2 tbl of cane sugar daily (as per Zimmerman's instructions).
I like the idea of the raw honey starter, I think I will try that along with an experiment with grapes from a friends vineyard. I really wanted to get into the wild ferment but had to save my recipes with a known strain. I've never homebrewed before haha I love Zimmerman's book, it got me diving in head first with joy! (See thread first batch need advice if your curious at the first attempt)
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
Day 19
It's a bit hazy, but much clearer than before. I decided to try a bit. It is very smooth with a strong wintergreen cooling effect. All the gruit herbs come through nicely in nose and flavor. I'm a bit surprised it's this good on the first try. I guess you can't have bad luck all the time!
This recipe is great start for getting to know the herbs. Experimentation can certainly run wild on this.
Improvements? It's really quite good as is, but carbonation would also be nice (which is the plan if the yeast are still viable). Small amounts of ginger or licorice could certainly be nice additions. I like it dry, but sweeter would be tasty as well for winter months.
Let's talk about the thing no one answers on any of the posts I found on gruit. Is the buzz different or not? This gruit mead is just shy of 15% ABV. It is strong in alcohol alone, but it does have a relaxing effect that goes beyond that. I don't really get any "Viking berserker rage" going on with this. It's more of a happy, extremely relaxed buzz. I would say it is a different buzz, but my n=1 at this point. Let's return to this point after more testing. More tasty testing. Yes, [sip] more testing is definitely required.
It's a bit hazy, but much clearer than before. I decided to try a bit. It is very smooth with a strong wintergreen cooling effect. All the gruit herbs come through nicely in nose and flavor. I'm a bit surprised it's this good on the first try. I guess you can't have bad luck all the time!
This recipe is great start for getting to know the herbs. Experimentation can certainly run wild on this.
Improvements? It's really quite good as is, but carbonation would also be nice (which is the plan if the yeast are still viable). Small amounts of ginger or licorice could certainly be nice additions. I like it dry, but sweeter would be tasty as well for winter months.
Let's talk about the thing no one answers on any of the posts I found on gruit. Is the buzz different or not? This gruit mead is just shy of 15% ABV. It is strong in alcohol alone, but it does have a relaxing effect that goes beyond that. I don't really get any "Viking berserker rage" going on with this. It's more of a happy, extremely relaxed buzz. I would say it is a different buzz, but my n=1 at this point. Let's return to this point after more testing. More tasty testing. Yes, [sip] more testing is definitely required.
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
Haha, I went to the store and bought it! Nothing so fancy as Zimmerman suggests. I'm making wild starters to isolate a pure yeast strain through microbiology techniques. I'll write an article (three actually) once all the "bugs" are worked out (sorry, couldn't resist some microbiology humor). Cheers!
A tidbit from my herbalist buddy.
Unripe pine cones are just amazing as a source of wild yeasts. If you are into brewing (sodas, herbal brews, beers, etc...) - just place a few cones into sugar water (15% sugar - 85% water per volume). These pinyon pine green cones already started fermenting in a day. Never had such a fast fermentation (Don't screw the lid too tight). After 2-3 days, the liquid can be used as a starter for wonderful fermented concoctions. I usually use 1/2 pint starter for one gallon of brew. Experimental extension from my book "The New Wildcrafted Cuisine" http://www.amazon.com/New-Wildcrafted-Cuisine- / /1603586067
Unripe pine cones are just amazing as a source of wild yeasts. If you are into brewing (sodas, herbal brews, beers, etc...) - just place a few cones into sugar water (15% sugar - 85% water per volume). These pinyon pine green cones already started fermenting in a day. Never had such a fast fermentation (Don't screw the lid too tight). After 2-3 days, the liquid can be used as a starter for wonderful fermented concoctions. I usually use 1/2 pint starter for one gallon of brew. Experimental extension from my book "The New Wildcrafted Cuisine" http://www.amazon.com/New-Wildcrafted-Cuisine- / /1603586067
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
Update to "Honey Bug". I allowed this to sit in a dark place loosely capped until the mead cleared. That's right. I said the mead.
At this point, there was a nasty looking mat of filamentous fungi on top; however, the bottom had a fluffy layer of yeast. I pulled the top layer off to the side and got a loop of yeast for plating:
You can see filamentous patches and round white colonies here. The white colonies are yeasties. I've re-streaked one of the well isolated colonies to obtain a pure culture. Can't wait to make some mead with the pure strain!
Ginger bug also worked:
Streaked a single clone of this as well.
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
I'm on passage 3 of purifying the honey yeast. It seems to be pure, so I inoculated a 1 cup starter as follows:
1 ounce honey
4 ounces water
1 tsp Fermaid O
One loop of yeast from a single colony
Let's see if the isolate has good characteristics before we go all out.
1 ounce honey
4 ounces water
1 tsp Fermaid O
One loop of yeast from a single colony
Let's see if the isolate has good characteristics before we go all out.
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
Full on fermentation.
This yeast isolate smells like honey during fermentation! Can't wait to see how it tastes!
This yeast isolate smells like honey during fermentation! Can't wait to see how it tastes!
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
The starter of my honey yeast isolate is bone dry. I decided to taste it to see if it was worth going forward to ABV tolerance testing.
Keep in mind this starter had an SG of 1.09 and now it's dry. Most meads at this point would be very thin in body and light in flavor.
Not this mead. It's the thickest mouthfeel I've ever felt in any yeast. It's dessert liquor thick with massive honey aroma. You would swear it was raw honey, but then you realize it's bone dry on the finish. I think I hit the gold mine on this one.
I hope the characteristics last through aging. Crazy good and extremely different. I think I have a true mead yeast!
Keep in mind this starter had an SG of 1.09 and now it's dry. Most meads at this point would be very thin in body and light in flavor.
Not this mead. It's the thickest mouthfeel I've ever felt in any yeast. It's dessert liquor thick with massive honey aroma. You would swear it was raw honey, but then you realize it's bone dry on the finish. I think I hit the gold mine on this one.
I hope the characteristics last through aging. Crazy good and extremely different. I think I have a true mead yeast!
KingBrianI
Well-Known Member
Very interesting stuff here. I'll be following your results closely. May be time for me to start working on gruit again, I'm feeling inspired.
KingBrianI
Well-Known Member
Any updates?
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
Yes. After a few iterations, this recipe is perfect. See here: https://denardbrewing.com/blog/post/gruit-bomm/
Subscribed!
KingBrianI
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but that link is a little underwhelming. In this thread you were talking about experimenting with additional gruit herbs and using the wild yeast you isolated, but the link just takes me to a bland recipe. Did you ever use the yeast you isolated from honey for a real batch, or did you only ever taste the starter liquid? You mentioned certain herbs (i.e. sweet gale) need to be "dry-hopped" for effect, but the recipe doesn't mention any post-boil additions. If your interest in this petered out and there wasn't much more experimentation done that's one thing (god knows I lose motivation halfway through most of my projects), but if you have more info on your findings after your last update to this thread we'd like to hear about it!
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loveofrose
Well-Known Member
Ok, point by point:
1. Wild Yeast - The wild yeast has been purified via this method I developed:
Isolation Part 1
http://gotmead.com/blog/articles/an...rt-1-wild-yeast-culture-from-honey-honey-bug/
Isolation Part 2
http://gotmead.com/blog/articles/4597/
First test batch is currently aging. I don't expect it to be fast as it is a wild yeast. I think 8 months is coming up, so I'll taste then to see if this yeast ages well or I need to try another isolate.
2. Dry hopped - I tested both ways and found no benefit to dry hopping with effect or flavor. Dry hopping is actually detrimental to flavor. I have read that fresh herbs tend to have a stronger effect, so I've started growing the gruit trinity. Here is yarrow from my garden: View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1497443246.722595.jpg
The recipe I gave is honed after much experimentation. Overall, I think my progress is going quite well. I'm sorry if you are underwhelmed.
1. Wild Yeast - The wild yeast has been purified via this method I developed:
Isolation Part 1
http://gotmead.com/blog/articles/an...rt-1-wild-yeast-culture-from-honey-honey-bug/
Isolation Part 2
http://gotmead.com/blog/articles/4597/
First test batch is currently aging. I don't expect it to be fast as it is a wild yeast. I think 8 months is coming up, so I'll taste then to see if this yeast ages well or I need to try another isolate.
2. Dry hopped - I tested both ways and found no benefit to dry hopping with effect or flavor. Dry hopping is actually detrimental to flavor. I have read that fresh herbs tend to have a stronger effect, so I've started growing the gruit trinity. Here is yarrow from my garden: View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1497443246.722595.jpg
The recipe I gave is honed after much experimentation. Overall, I think my progress is going quite well. I'm sorry if you are underwhelmed.
