Grape Cider?

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awilkes67

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Hi there! A local bar near me used to have some craft winery grape cider on tap, and I loved it, but the winery went under and I can't get it anymore.

The recipes for cider seem very straightforward, so my question is:

1) Can I take a simple recipe, i.e. Pappy's Pub Cider on here, switch out the Apple Juice for Grape Juice, and follow the exact same process?

I imagine I might need to adjust the sugar amount to get the right starting SG, but the pH might be better for fermentation?

Any insight you experts may have would be greatly appreciated. I can't find s recipe for pure grape cider anywhere!
 
"Pure grape cider" - most of us call that wine.

I mean, cider *IS* a wine, made with apples instead of grapes. So, yes, you can make grape wine.
 
That's a great question. Typically, wine grapes when pressed produce a juice with a gravity of about 1.090 - which has a potential ABV of about 12% which is what makes this a wine. Apples , when pressed typically have enough sugar to give you a starting gravity of about 1.050 - or about 6 or 7 % ABV. The only thing that I can imagine is that the winery may have mixed the pressed grapes with juice pressed from apples... perhaps 1:3 or 1:4 which would have given them a "cider" with a gravity of about 1.060 (or 1.058) (or a potential ABV of about 8% (or 7.5%))...That's a little closer to a session drink.. something you might quaff by the pint rather than drink by the glass.
 
I wonder if they water the grapes down (with water) to about 1.055 or so? Ferment that with a not-too-aggressive white wine yeast, and carbonate it.
 
Thanks so much for the insight, (and not so much for the smart-a$$ reply, we're really proud of you for learning sarcasm, must have been quite an effort for you to get all the words in the right order).

All I can tell you was that this was definitely not a wine. It was served cold out of a tap, was quite carbonated, and had more of a grape juice taste with the nice tartness of a hard cider and didn't taste anything like wine, dry or sweet. Your ideas definitely gives me a starting point for experimentation.
 
You asked about a commercial grape cider, which I assume was apples and grapes. Then you asked if you can substitute grapes for apple, in a recipe that includes just apples and sugar, which leaves you with just grapes and sugar Then you used the words "pure grape cider" which again suggests nothing but grapes, and said you can't find a recipe for it anywhere.

So, I stand by my statement. It's wine; that's why you couldn't find a recipe for "pure grape cider". If you want to take it as sarcasm instead of clarification, so be it. I will not sarcastically thank you for the recent reply.

have a good day--
--Michael
 
Thanks so much for the insight, (and not so much for the smart-a$$ reply, we're really proud of you for learning sarcasm, must have been quite an effort for you to get all the words in the right order).

All I can tell you was that this was definitely not a wine. It was served cold out of a tap, was quite carbonated, and had more of a grape juice taste with the nice tartness of a hard cider and didn't taste anything like wine, dry or sweet. Your ideas definitely gives me a starting point for experimentation.

Call it whatever you want, and whatever the manufacturer called it. But it's not sarcasm to try to understand what you are looking for and to use terms that help us get there. We are trying to help, but not even knowing the brand of the drink or the make up of it makes it a bit difficult. Everyone getting on the same page with terms and what you're looking for can only help.

The fact is, "cider" means "apple". The definition of cider is "an alcoholic beverage made from the juice of apples".

There is no such thing as a "grape cider"- it's either cider (from apples), or wine (other fruits). Perhaps what you want is a low alcohol wine, or pehaps it's cider with some added grape juice. The same drink made with pears is called "perry".

Those terms are what we have to work with, but of course winemakers can do whatever they want to make a great and enjoyable beverage.

It sounds like you're looking for a lower alcohol grape wine, and to have it sweetened and carbonated. I wonder if they used something other than wine grapes- say, concord grapes or catawba grapes.

That would be the first thing to think about- apples are grapes are vastly different. Apples are high in malic acid, and most grapes are high in tartaric acid but some grape varieties are higher in malic acid. That's what made me think of concord or catawba type of grapes. They would be less "wine"-like in taste, and have a lower SG as well so they would probably be a good place to start, especially if you were sweetening the wine because they are very "biting" and acidic when not sweetened.

You can make a lower ABV wine, carb it up, sweeten it as desired and serve it out of a tap. It's still considered "wine" and not "cider", unless it's made out of grapes. That is probably hard for the maker to explain so maybe that's why they called it cider, however it would be just as possible for it to be apple cider with some grape juice added.

If you could find out what sort of ingredients they actually used (cider vs grapes), we can help you emulate it.

Oh, and by the way, welcome to the forum. We love talking about tasty fermenteds here.

Since you're new, I'll just try to politely mention that the only real rule we have about posting is "don't be a dick". Being sarcastic with a "thank you" like that does border on that, so try to be skip the sarcasm yourself. It's hard to convey things in typing vs face-to-face, but please keep it in mind for next time.
 
hey man let's start over. Let's talk about this grape cider you liked. Did it seem low alcohol, or anywhere near the alcohol level of wine?
How sweet was it? Did it taste both of apple and grape, and would you say either tasted like a table apple or eating grape? Or a more nuanced wine-like, less raw or unfermented grape? What kind of grapes did they use, if you remember?

...with enough information and your current enthusiasm, we can recreate this grape cider.
 
Thanks, yes I was being a dick. I'm sorry, having a rough week.

The whole story is this 'cider' that's what they called it, was on tap only very occassionally. I liked it so much that when it was on tap, I brought growlers and had them filled. Then the supply of it went away.

In any case, to tray and answer the questions:

1) It was dark and kind of tasted almost like a very sour, less sweet grape soda.

2) It was super strong (I'm guessing somewere like 8-10% ABV)

3) It was carboanted

4) One question I did ask was if it was an apple grape blend. Supposedly it is only grapes, hence my thoughts of it being 'pure grape cider'. It definitely did not have any taste of apple.

5) It was definitely not nuanced, no characteristics of any wine I have ever had.

Hoping to get some more information soon, might have a lead on the original source of this drink.

Once again, thanks for all the help.
 
Two things for you to try, in no particular order:

1) Get a bottle of Andre "Cold Duck" and see how close that is. (it'll give us a place to start)

2) Make a gallon of Concord grape wine without adding any sugar except to prime the bottles, and Cotes des Blanc yeast. Concord grapes are sour and very "grape-y". Put it up in beer bottles (preferably clear ones so you can see the pretty purple color).
 
1) It was dark and kind of tasted almost like a very sour, less sweet grape soda.

2) Make a gallon of Concord grape wine without adding any sugar except to prime the bottles, and Cotes des Blanc yeast. Concord grapes are sour and very "grape-y". Put it up in beer bottles (preferably clear ones so you can see the pretty purple color).

Throwing my vote behind Concord grape - this is the classic flavour of grape soda, and also "grape jelly", so if that's the taste you're looking to recreate, Concord is the grape for you. I made a few batches for the first time last autumn and the first one I didn't add any sugar, it came out right around 7% with an intense grape flavour.

I did what z-bob suggests minus the priming sugar, and it was extremely tart and puckery, probably moreso than your average bear would enjoy. I liked it, but I'm a weirdo. If you want it more like a grape soda/cider you'll have to figure out how to sweeten it after fermentation, and this is something others here can help with a lot more than me. OTOH you described your "cider" as "very sour, less sweet", so maybe that's what you're after?

Welch's dark grape juice is 100% concord, and there are a few recipes in the recipe section including a popular one by Yooper I believe. However, I've made wine from both Welch's and from fresh concords and it made a substantial difference in flavour, so you might have to experiment.*

*EDIT: not suggesting you actually recreate those exact recipes, which I think will get you a proper "wine" @ higher alcohol than you're after; just that you can start there to get ideas.
 
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I know they DO make wine from Catawba grapes. I can't help much beyond that. Not sure where you're from, but you might check out some of the wine offerings from Yooper's area, looking specifically for Catawba wine, or maybe from northern Ohio area (where Catawba Island located.)
 
Previous several replies look good. More details if op gets them will help.
I agree, I'd probably get concord grape juice - my recollection is gravity is bit higher than apple, like 60 instead of 50 gravity points but check it to be sure - and raise to 75-ish with frozen concentrate. Ferment dry, and backsweeten to taste with whatever you like, maybe even searching out more interesting grapes in the meantime to add character with.
 
What I'm getting from this is that the "grape cider" that the OP bought was probably labeled that by either the pub that served it or the person who made it even though it's not a cider at all. Serving a carbonated low ABV wine from a tap would confuse people (customers). What should you call it? Sparkling session wine? Calling it grape cider implies carbonation and ABV that's lower than a typical wine. Kinda makes sense from a marketing point of view.
 
I'm not sure I'd throw a wine yeast at that. I would go for more of a ale yeast that should not blow off as many flavors and might even stop with some sweetness ( although all of mine seem to blow past 1.000 to 0.998-5).
I'd try Nottingham, or something like that.
 
Personally I would try it on a small scale (1-3 gal)with bottled Welch grape juice (concord grapes) and a packet of nottingham yeast.

It most likely won't be as good as the "grape cider" you had but it will be an inexpensive way to see if you are on the right track (unless of course you can get the actual recipe from the source).
 
This might even be a good job for bread yeast. Use a finishing agent like Sparkolloid or gelatin to clear it up.

Edit: next time I go to Aldi, I'll get a half gallon of Concord grape juice and and half gallon of Niagara (and mix them) and try it. A half teaspoon of yeast nutrient, and a teaspoon of bread yeast. Should be an interesting experiment for about $5.
 
This might even be a good job for bread yeast. Use a finishing agent like Sparkolloid or gelatin to clear it up.

Edit: next time I go to Aldi, I'll get a half gallon of Concord grape juice and and half gallon of Niagara (and mix them) and try it. A half teaspoon of yeast nutrient, and a teaspoon of bread yeast. Should be an interesting experiment for about $5.

Kind of a "Wine" version of JAOM? :D
Keep us posted on the results. :)
 
I wonder if "Grape Cider" is anything like the hard grape sodas that seem to be popping up everywhere?

My only thought about the bread yeast is it may get too drunk to carbonate, unless your going to keg it, then it doesn't really matter.
 
I'm not going to add any sugar (except at priming) so the ABV should be pretty low -- about 7%? I don't think bread yeast will have any trouble carbonating that. If I'm wrong, that little bit of sugar will probably make it taste better.

I haven't tasted the original, so I have no idea how it will match what aw'67 is looking for. I'm kind of going for a modest alcohol dry sparkling red wine that I can drink a lot of without falling over. :) And I suspect bread yeast will have more of an ale flavor profile than a wine yeast.
 
I just mixed a half gallon of red grape juice (Concord) and a half gallon of white (Niagara) in a 4 liter Carlo Rossi jug. I thought straight Concord might be too sour. I poured about a pint back into one of the bottles in case it foams up, and put that in the fridge to add back later. I measured the sugar content with a refractometer, and it's just under 16 brix. So a little over 8.5% ABV if it ferments dry.

I added 1/2 tsp yeast nutrient and 1 tsp dry bread yeast, and when the yeast started to sink I shook the whole thing up and added an air lock.

Will give occasional status reports until it's done. This should go pretty fast once it takes off, although the bread yeast is pretty old so it might be a delayed start.

Edit: 8 hours later it had a trace of foam on top, and when I sloshed the jug the airlock bubbled quite a bit.
:)
 
I just mixed a half gallon of red grape juice (Concord) and a half gallon of white (Niagara) in a 4 liter Carlo Rossi jug. I thought straight Concord might be too sour. I poured about a pint back into one of the bottles in case it foams up, and put that in the fridge to add back later. I measured the sugar content with a refractometer, and it's just under 16 brix. So a little over 8.5% ABV if it ferments dry.

I added 1/2 tsp yeast nutrient and 1 tsp dry bread yeast, and when the yeast started to sink I shook the whole thing up and added an air lock.

Will give occasional status reports until it's done. This should go pretty fast once it takes off, although the bread yeast is pretty old so it might be a delayed start.

Edit: 8 hours later it had a trace of foam on top, and when I sloshed the jug the airlock bubbled quite a bit.
:)

Cool... Keep us updated, please. :)
 
It's chugging along pretty well. I added the rest of the juice, because even tho' it is fermenting vigorously, it is not foaming up.

I haven't decided which fining agent I'm going to use to get the bread yeast to drop clear quickly. I've got Sparkolloid, gelatin, powdered egg white, and agar-agar. I'm leaning towards the gelatin or egg white just to keep with the simple theme. (you could make this with all grocery store ingredients; just leave out the nutrient and maybe pitch a little more yeast) What do y'all think? I know fining is still a few weeks away.
 
The bubbling has almost stopped and the wine has started to clear. The color has changed from an ugly mauve back to looking like cloudy red wine and there was maybe a 1/4" thick sediment in the bottom of the jug.

I racked it to a glass gallon jug and added 1/4 tsp of gelatin dissolved in 4 oz of hot water, and put the airlock back. It was bubbling like mad again, so the gelatin might be a week early. But since I started typing this the bubbling has almost stopped.

I haven't tasted it yet. Less than 2 weeks since I started, and I think it will be ready to bottle soon.
 
Two weeks. All bubbling has stopped and it's clear enough to read newsprint thru the jug. I plan on bottling it tomorrow evening unless the hydrometer says that's a stupid idea. (and I might bottle it anyway)
I can't believe how well the gelatin worked.
 
This topic has inspired me to do some grape juice fermenting myself now.

Got a 3L jug of Newman's grape juice and a 4L jug of ocean spray cran raspberry currently fermenting with my country wine yeast

Update:
4 days in and the grape had fermented out to .996.

Sample tasted like tart wine mixed with grape jelly. Added a tsp of sugar and mixed and it was rather delicious.

Still super cloudy but planning on giviby it until Thursday (one week total) then taking it off the lees to gather the yeast and put it back into the bottle to mix with 1/4 cup sugar for sweetening and storing in the fridge.

Update 2:
Decided to check the cran ras. Was at 1.000 and still cloudy. Nice, light and refreshing. Made a full glass for SWMBO and added 1tsp sugar and she is in love with it.
 
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Just reporting back. The stuff I made with 50% Concord grape juice, 50% white grape juice, and bread yeast (no sugar) fermented very fast and cleared quickly when I added the gelatin, but it's taking forever to carbonate. It's a lovely rose color (I thought it would be a lot redder) and tastes kind of thin but it's getting better as it carbs.

I may try making it again with wine yeast or an old packet of ale yeast.
 
My last report. I just opened a cold bottle and it's nicely carbonated (finally!) and tastes really good. The "thinness" is no longer a problem. Doesn't really taste like wine, although that's what it is, I think "cider" is a good description even if not accurate. Kind of tart and refreshing, and I can't really taste the alcohol but it doesn't taste like juice either.

Time to start a 5 gallon batch...

A.W, are you still here? Didn't mean to hijack your thread.
 
My go-to drink is Costco's Treetop Apple juice, 5 gallons with 3-4 oz ground ginger. I've been running a variety of their other juices, including their grape roughly the same way, minus the ginger. They all seem to be about 1.050 to start, getting nearly 1.000 to finish.

I actually love the tartness of their Cran Raspberry, and will make 5 gallons as long as they carry it, although the calculations get funky because they aren't 1 gallon jugs like the TreeTop.
 
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