Geothermal Heating and Air Conditioning?

[jgln]

Our heater died Tuesday night (26 years old) so I stayed home and kept the house warm feeding the wood burning stove. Fortunately today will be warmer and it will be ok until my fiancee gets home and starts it up again. Looks like it will be mild for a while so we can get by for now. Our central air system is 12 years old and makes a lot of banging noise starting and stopping and may be on the way out too. Unfortunately I don't have too long to think about this.

A new propane heater will cost $3,140 installed AFTER the fed tax credit. We have no gas on our rural road.

To fix it will cost $500. This would buy me time to think about this but also kind of a waste of $500 because the heater has outlived its life by many years already.

He also encouraged me to think about a geothermal system for $13,200 after the fed tax credit and state rebate. This will heat and cool our house so we can get rid of the AC unit.

Anyone have this in their home? Do you like it? What about when it is really cold or really hot, does it have a problem? Our electric bill will go up but we will save more in not needing propane, so he says. We live on a small 10 acre cleared farm where we grow hay so that is not a problem. He said they need to dig a 2' wide 6' deep 350' trench for the tubing.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I don't have one but I know a few who do and they love it. Still need emergency heat in the depth of winter tho'.

$13.2 after the fact sounds great but what the up front?

I have heard up to $30k installed. Ouch!

 

[mmb]

I had a 3 ton Geo closed loop system put in two summers ago. At the same time I switched to electric hot water from propane. At the time we didn't have air conditioning. We also didn't qualify for the big geo tax credit that is available now, just the high efficiency tax credit.

We love it. It does save us money on propane and even with the increased electrical usage our monthly bill only went up around $50. The only caveat you need to remember is that the geo system needs help from an electric booster strip if the outside temp is at 0°F or below. That thing really sucks the kilowatts but for ours it only kicked on last winter during the dead of January.

We have a WaterFurnace brand system. Doesn't have any problem cooling the house down in the summer and we keep the house at 70° pretty much year round as we have young kids. (6yo and 8mo)

One nifty thing about the geo install is that the compressor system has a cooling "blanket" around it that is filled with water from your cold supply. Any heat coming off that is trapped in this cooling blanket and the water is injected into a storage tank (50G water heater that isn't plugged in). That storage tank supplies your domestic hot water heater and that way your water heater only has to heat up from whatever the temp in the storage tank is. Our inlet to the powered water heater comes over at about 90°F, so the powered water heater only has to heat a differential of about 40°F instead of 80°F. All that from what would normally be wasted heat.

I'd recommend a geo system. Make sure you have good insulation and your duct work will support a low velocity, constant flow system. Our install was around $22k including increasing size of duct work, adding more return ducting, electrostatic filtration and air sterilization tech that the wife HAD to have.

 

[jgln]

.....and they said they would install a new heater to heat the house while they did the work then remove it after at just the cost of installation of $150. They will also set me up with a 10 year 0% interest loan to pay off the $22,000 the system costs before the tax credit and rebates kick in.

I guess I am afraid the system may not be able to heat our drafty house with cathedral ceilings. I don't understand well enough how 57 degree earth will heat a house to 68-70 without some help (electric). I know new doors and window would help but that is going beyond out means all at once. Not to mention our jobs are still on shaky grounds.

 

[Chudz]

So, am I the only one that thought "Dutch Oven" when reading "Geothermal Heating?"

 

[Hinermad]

So, am I the only one that thought "Dutch Oven" when reading "Geothermal Heating?"

That's okay - I pictured someone trying to tap into a geyser.

So do these geothermal systems use a heat pump? When I first heard about geothermal years ago they were just ducts in the ground you blew air through. It didn't take much power but it was only a way of helping your regular heating & cooling systems, it didn't replace them.

Dave

 

[Schlenkerla]

We love ours.

I have a 5 ton system with 5 vertical borings in the front yard. Each is 200ft deep all are connected in a series. This give the system alot of ground water temp stability.

We have the traditional forced air style vs the in floor heating. I have a two speed blower motor that run 24/7 at 25% then once the heat/AC kicks on it ramps up to 100%. This system keeps the temp pretty consistent.

My system has a resistance heating system as a back up. I never ever needed it either. Even in the worst subzero temps at -15F here in Iowa. I have used it only a few times due to my own choosing. It works really good too. When I first moved into my new house they wired the pump backwards so I had the heat off until it got fixed. It has the ability to ramp the heat from 50F to-68F in ~30 minutes. That's in a two story house. 3800sqft if you count the basement space.

I also have a super deheater. My electric hot water heater is connected to the heat pump. The super-d acts as a heat sink to pull heat out of the house during the summer. Hot water is virtually free during the summer. Even during the winter when I use hot water I can still tell when the heat pump is on because the water is really fricken hot.

My house w/o the basement is 2500 sqft. I have an all electric rate of $.09/kwh after 1000 kwh it drops to $.03/kwh. My bills are ridiculously low. Summer ~ $120 summer $80 in the winter. My Gas & Electric is all lumped together. Thats with 2 adults and one kid.

BTW - I have gas for my stove and master bedroom fireplace.

If you plan to stay in the house for several years its worth it IMO.

Hope this helps

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

That's okay - I pictured someone trying to tap into a geyser.

So do these geothermal systems use a heat pump? When I first heard about geothermal years ago they were just ducts in the ground you blew air through. It didn't take much power but it was only a way of helping your regular heating & cooling systems, it didn't replace them.

Dave

Now a days they bury big assed coils in teh ground and recirculate water through them. Basically.

 

[jgln]

We love ours.

I have a 5 ton system with 5 vertical borings in the front yard. Each is 200ft deep all are connected in a series. This give the system alot of ground water temp stability.

We have the traditional forced air style vs the in floor heating. I have a two speed blower motor that run 24/7 at 25% then once the heat/AC kicks on it ramps up to 100%. This system keeps the temp pretty consistent.

My system has a resistance heating system as a back up. I never ever needed it either. Even in the worst subzero temps at -15F here in Iowa. I have used it only a few times due to my own choosing. It works really good too. When I first moved into my new house they wired the pump backwards so I had the heat off until it got fixed. It has the ability to ramp the heat from 50F to-68F in ~30 minutes. That's in a two story house. 3800sqft if you count the basement space.

I also have a super deheater. My electric hot water heater is connected to the heat pump. The super-d acts as a heat sink to pull heat out of the house during the summer. Hot water is virtually free during the summer. Even during the winter when I use hot water I can still tell when the heat pump is on because the water is really fricken hot.

My house w/o the basement is 2500 sqft. I have an all electric rate of $.09/kwh after 1000 kwh it drops to $.03/kwh. My bills are ridiculously low. Summer ~ $120 summer $80 in the winter. My Gas & Electric is all lumped together. Thats with 2 adults and one kid.

BTW - I have gas for my stove and master bedroom fireplace.

If you plan to stay in the house for several years its worth it IMO.

Hope this helps

He said just a 350' trench; you have almost 3 times that for about the same size house. I wonder with the trenching they make more use of coils? He never mentioned the vertical method; maybe because it is not something that can easily do themselves? Backhoe vs special well digging equipment? He did say even on a small property they can do it by doing circles, circles around the house, around the property, whatever it takes to get the length.

Looks like do it yourself kits are about 1/2 the quote he gave me. There is a lot of labor involved so I guess that is not too bad and they need to make some profit, right?

I wish I had some security this is going to work for us. This is a lot of money to put out. I guess they can add more length later if the system is deficient? I hope they don't nickel and dime me on things. I think he said they need to upgrade my electrical box (full) and I guess they need to tap into my well line across the basement? That is a question I have, do you need to replenish some of the water in the system now and then or is it fully sustainable one full?

 

[Barc]

.....and they said they would install a new heater to heat the house while they did the work then remove it after at just the cost of installation of $150. They will also set me up with a 10 year 0% interest loan to pay off the $22,000 the system costs before the tax credit and rebates kick in.

I guess I am afraid the system may not be able to heat our drafty house with cathedral ceilings. I don't understand well enough how 57 degree earth will heat a house to 68-70 without some help (electric). I know new doors and window would help but that is going beyond out means all at once. Not to mention our jobs are still on shaky grounds.

I'm currently building a new house and looked into this (I've actually been looking into this for years). I was quoted $24K for a system in a new construction. That seems very expensive to me (as do most all of these systems right now) considering I can get a SEER 14 system installed for less than half that. And, since the house would be under construction, the usual upgrade hassles of existing structures wouldn't be there... And what actually goes into creating these systems... And the fact that someone can still afford to (and make money doing it) offering you $22K with 0% interest unless they are making a ton of money off it... Anyway, the pay-off just wasn't there, imo, in my case.

So far as how 57 degree earth will heat a house, remember that the fluid in the pipes is, obviously, warmer at 57 than the air is outside. This heat is "moved" from the underground piping and is "exchanged" via a coil/heat exchanger. The main difference between a standard heat pump and a basic geothermal system is the geothermal system doesn't need an ouside coil to "gather heat;" it uses the piping system as its outside coil. I won't go too far into the HVAC side other than to say that a geothermal system, since it uses fluid as a transfer medium, is much more efficient than just forcing air (generally air that is much colder / hotter than 57 degrees) over a coil to "exchange heat" with.

If I were you, I'd go with one of the cheaper options. $500, even if it is $500 you won't get back, is a lot less than $22K and money well spent if you have time to plan and research. Even financed over 10 years, that's still $183/month which puts you having paid your $500 (not to mention the $150 cost of the temp heater) in under 3 months... Think it will still be cold in March / April? Even the more expensive of the cheaper options, you'll be hard pressed to have made up the $10K difference in price unless you plan on living there MANY years. Additionally, if you don't plan on living there until it is "paid off," most buyers will not give you the extra $ you've invested in the system when it comes time to buy. Not to mention you said you were potentially on shaky ground at work... Seems like a no brainer. Outlaying minmal funds and saving for a potential down-turn in income is probably your best bet.

And, if you want to do a little more math, look at it this way:

UP FRONT COSTS
1) You can fix what you've got for $500. So, status quo = $500.
2) You can get something new for $3,140. So, new status quo = $3,140.
3) You can get the geothermal system for $13,200. So, geothermal = $13,200.

RETURN ON INVESTMENT (ROI)
1) You won't gain any savings on electricity or anything with your current system. It'll just work. $500 = $0 ROI
2) You will probably get better efficiency with a new system but it will be less than half of what the geothermal system will be. Let's say $20/month. $3,140 = $20/month or $360/year. Without doing any math (as in potential, investments, interest, etc), let's just say that will pay for itself in less than 9 years.
3) You will get a lot better efficiency with a geothermal system. Let's say you get $50/month savings. $13,200 = $50/month or $600/year. Again, simple math, it will pay for itself in about 22 years.

These are just my figures and not based on anything but you can do your own math and see what you figure out. And don't go by what the geothermal folks tell you the savings are (a little biased, maybe!?). Ask people around you, either in person or on the interet. Obviously, since they are a "local" company, there should be other clients. And make sure you are comparing apples to apples. If these folks are in larger houses running their heater at 75 and AC at 65 and they are saving $200 / month, chances are that, if you keep your heat at 68 and AC at 72 (and live in a smaller house), you won't see quite that kinda savings.

Alright, don't know if that helps...

 

[scratchypants]

We have a 3 ton unit with a 2000' horizontal loop (2 x 1000', in a 500' trench). We love it. We were going to go with an open system using our existing well as the source, but I thought the 6 gpm it would have required was a bit high - not to mention the cost of running the pumps.

We had the installer add a toggle switch to the back up electric heater. If you set your thermostat to 62 when you're not home, then 68 30 minutes before you arrive, the differential is enough that the electric will kick in to arrive at 68 more quickly. With the switch I can manually override this behavior.

BTW, our house was built in 1890, and while we did seal up a lot of cracks, it is nowhere near draft free.

 

[jgln]

The fact that the new propane heater has a 10 year warranty parts and labor and the geothermal system only 5 years parts and labor makes me suspicious as well. Are they not as confident they geo system will last as long or have less problems?

 

[Barc]

He said just a 350' trench; you have almost 3 times that for about the same size house. I wonder with the trenching they make more use of coils? He never mentioned the vertical method; maybe because it is not something that can easily do themselves? Backhoe vs special well digging equipment? He did say even on a small property they can do it by doing circles, circles around the house, around the property, whatever it takes to get the length.

Looks like do it yourself kits are about 1/2 the quote he gave me. There is a lot of labor involved so I guess that is not too bad and they need to make some profit, right?

I wish I had some security this is going to work for us. This is a lot of money to put out. I guess they can add more length later if the system is deficient? I hope they don't nickel and dime me on things. I think he said they need to upgrade my electrical box (full) and I guess they need to tap into my well line across the basement? That is a question I have, do you need to replenish some of the water in the system now and then or is it fully sustainable one full?

The trench will be at least 6' deep. And it will have coiled pipes, as you said, pretty much one on top of the next. A well system uses one of 2 methods. You can draw in well water, use it in the system, then put it back into the hole, never using the "same" water, or you can have a verticle system that's closed loop, just like the system you're looking at, only verticle. It just has verticle piping instead of horizontal. Both require a well drilling rig, typically. But, the trench system requires a backhoe, at minimum.

DIY systems are cheaper (but still overpriced, imo) and do the same thing. Just make sure, if you go that route, to size the system properly and get the pipes fused together properly or you'll have a lot of other problems (pressure drop, etc.). Plus, the labor outlay is huge if you don't get a backhoe or have someone dig the trenches for you.

You can add more length but, with it properly sized, it shouldn't need it. If they are saying that already, run. Do you currently have electric heat? If so, I don't see the need for an electric upgrade as this system uses less heat than does a typical electric heat pump. A rewire of some things, maybe. And I don't understand the need to tap the incoming water line. You should have some sort of way to replenish the solution automatically. It shouldn't need much, if any, replenishing, though. It isn't like water, more like antifreeze... And, since it is closed loop, any replenishment, other than a few ounces here and there, should be looked at as a problem (i.e. a leak) somewhere...

Again, hope that helps...

EDIT:

Just say where you said "propane heat." An electrical upgrade may be necessary. Are you on a 200 amp service? If so, it shouldnt' be a big deal. A good electrician could probably do the job quickly and easily unless you've got some serious appliances and some large shop equipment in your house.

 

[jgln]

I'm currently building a new house and looked into this (I've actually been looking into this for years). I was quoted $24K for a system in a new construction. That seems very expensive to me (as do most all of these systems right now) considering I can get a SEER 14 system installed for less than half that. And, since the house would be under construction, the usual upgrade hassles of existing structures wouldn't be there... And what actually goes into creating these systems... And the fact that someone can still afford to (and make money doing it) offering you $22K with 0% interest unless they are making a ton of money off it... Anyway, the pay-off just wasn't there, imo, in my case.

So far as how 57 degree earth will heat a house, remember that the fluid in the pipes is, obviously, warmer at 57 than the air is outside. This heat is "moved" from the underground piping and is "exchanged" via a coil/heat exchanger. The main difference between a standard heat pump and a basic geothermal system is the geothermal system doesn't need an ouside coil to "gather heat;" it uses the piping system as its outside coil. I won't go too far into the HVAC side other than to say that a geothermal system, since it uses fluid as a transfer medium, is much more efficient than just forcing air (generally air that is much colder / hotter than 57 degrees) over a coil to "exchange heat" with.

If I were you, I'd go with one of the cheaper options. $500, even if it is $500 you won't get back, is a lot less than $22K and money well spent if you have time to plan and research. Even financed over 10 years, that's still $183/month which puts you having paid your $500 (not to mention the $150 cost of the temp heater) in under 3 months... Think it will still be cold in March / April? Even the more expensive of the cheaper options, you'll be hard pressed to have made up the $10K difference in price unless you plan on living there MANY years. Additionally, if you don't plan on living there until it is "paid off," most buyers will not give you the extra $ you've invested in the system when it comes time to buy. Not to mention you said you were potentially on shaky ground at work... Seems like a no brainer. Outlaying minmal funds and saving for a potential down-turn in income is probably your best bet.

And, if you want to do a little more math, look at it this way:

UP FRONT COSTS
1) You can fix what you've got for $500. So, status quo = $500.
2) You can get something new for $3,140. So, new status quo = $3,140.
3) You can get the geothermal system for $13,200. So, geothermal = $13,200.

RETURN ON INVESTMENT (ROI)
1) You won't gain any savings on electricity or anything with your current system. It'll just work. $500 = $0 ROI
2) You will probably get better efficiency with a new system but it will be less than half of what the geothermal system will be. Let's say $20/month. $3,140 = $20/month or $360/year. Without doing any math (as in potential, investments, interest, etc), let's just say that will pay for itself in less than 9 years.
3) You will get a lot better efficiency with a geothermal system. Let's say you get $50/month savings. $13,200 = $50/month or $600/year. Again, simple math, it will pay for itself in about 22 years.

These are just my figures and not based on anything but you can do your own math and see what you figure out. And don't go by what the geothermal folks tell you the savings are (a little biased, maybe!?). Ask people around you, either in person or on the interet. Obviously, since they are a "local" company, there should be other clients. And make sure you are comparing apples to apples. If these folks are in larger houses running their heater at 75 and AC at 65 and they are saving $200 / month, chances are that, if you keep your heat at 68 and AC at 72 (and live in a smaller house), you won't see quite that kinda savings.

Alright, don't know if that helps...

You have helped a lot, so far it was all thumbs up for the geo system and you point out several things I have thought of too. I think the additional bill at this point has me the most worried, I am going to give more thought to the cheap quick fix and allow time for a more confident decision perhaps when things at least "appear" more stable financially. Thing is how long will these rebates and tax credits be available? I may wind up paying full price if I wait too long. I am becoming more comfortable with the system as working for me though as a way to heat and cool our house.

 

[OCLemon]

I don't understand well enough how 57 degree earth will heat a house to 68-70 without some help (electric).

A simple explanation (all numbers are hypothetical for illustration):
Think about an air conditioner. Through the use of electricity, circulating fluids, and heat exchange with the air outside, an air conditioner keeps pumps 60 degree air out the cool side and 90 degree air out the hot side to produce a 30 degree temperature drop. If you imagine similar processes running in reverse, you could produce a 30 degree temperature rise.

Unfortunately, if its 5 degrees outside, a 30 degree temperature rise doesn't really help you very much, so instead of exchanging heat with the outside air, you exchange heat with the ground, which is 57 degrees. Thus, 30 degrees would make it pretty toasty.

 

[jgln]

The trench will be at least 6' deep. And it will have coiled pipes, as you said, pretty much one on top of the next. A well system uses one of 2 methods. You can draw in well water, use it in the system, then put it back into the hole, never using the "same" water, or you can have a verticle system that's closed loop, just like the system you're looking at, only verticle. It just has verticle piping instead of horizontal. Both require a well drilling rig, typically. But, the trench system requires a backhoe, at minimum.

DIY systems are cheaper (but still overpriced, imo) and do the same thing. Just make sure, if you go that route, to size the system properly and get the pipes fused together properly or you'll have a lot of other problems (pressure drop, etc.). Plus, the labor outlay is huge if you don't get a backhoe or have someone dig the trenches for you.

You can add more length but, with it properly sized, it shouldn't need it. If they are saying that already, run. Do you currently have electric heat? If so, I don't see the need for an electric upgrade as this system uses less heat than does a typical electric heat pump. A rewire of some things, maybe. And I don't understand the need to tap the incoming water line. You should have some sort of way to replenish the solution automatically. It shouldn't need much, if any, replenishing, though. It isn't like water, more like antifreeze... And, since it is closed loop, any replenishment, other than a few ounces here and there, should be looked at as a problem (i.e. a leak) somewhere...

Again, hope that helps...

EDIT:

Just say where you said "propane heat." An electrical upgrade may be necessary. Are you on a 200 amp service? If so, it shouldnt' be a big deal. A good electrician could probably do the job quickly and easily unless you've got some serious appliances and some large shop equipment in your house.

Yes, I saw the do it yourself kits and they are roughly 1/2 the quote for the full job. I would not feel confident doing it myself especially with winter here and needing heat. There are just too many things that could become obstacles and then needing professional help anyway. It would probably take me 10 times longer than a professional too.

 

[HairyDogBrewing]

There are also Direct Exchange systems that circulate the refrigerant underground in copper pipes.
They are more efficient, but cost more up front - for the copper and the drilling.
But they go straight down, so you might still have room for a pool later.

 

[jgln]

And the fact that someone can still afford to (and make money doing it) offering you $22K with 0% interest unless they are making a ton of money off it... QUOTE]

Maybe that is some government funded program? I didn't think to ask. I do know he had to apply for it for me and said it would take a week for it to be processed so I don't think they have anything to do with it directly.

 

[david_42]

A geothermal heat pump works against ground temperature, which is relatively constant, so it is more efficient than an air heat-pump when it's very hot or cold. I don't have one myself, but a couple friends do and one replaced both his propane heater and his A/C. He says cooling his place costs less in the summer than it did and he's never used the AUX heat in the winter.

I've got an air heat pump and haven't either, but it runs the defrost cycle frequently when the temperature is below 40F.

Installing coils takes "the mother of all ditch witches", according to Jim.

 

[jgln]

A simple explanation (all numbers are hypothetical for illustration):
Think about an air conditioner. Through the use of electricity, circulating fluids, and heat exchange with the air outside, an air conditioner keeps pumps 60 degree air out the cool side and 90 degree air out the hot side to produce a 30 degree temperature drop. If you imagine similar processes running in reverse, you could produce a 30 degree temperature rise.

Unfortunately, if its 5 degrees outside, a 30 degree temperature rise doesn't really help you very much, so instead of exchanging heat with the outside air, you exchange heat with the ground, which is 57 degrees. Thus, 30 degrees would make it pretty toasty.

I guess I understand that, just easier to understand in an AC unit since the refrigerant is quite colder than 57. I read somewhere (maybe right here) the unit "compresses" the heat to make it hotter than just 57.

 

[jgln]

I saw someone here recently put up a wind turbine. That thing was spinning well even without a noticeable breeze on the ground. We live in open farm land with no trees for miles to our north/north west and it is always breezy and downright terrible most other times. Maybe that could solve several problems. I think I need time to think and I am leaning more toward the temporary fix for now. I have one more person here at work who I know has looked into this too and I want to talk with him first.

I really wish my company would just make up its mind and tell us where we stand; they have been kicking dirt around for going on 5 months.

 

[jmendez29]

For everyone who doesn't understand the basic refrigeration process.

The refrigerant (freon) is compressed from a gas into a liquid. In this process, a lot of heat is generated. The liquid is then passed through some sort of heat sink. In a car or home A/C system, its the radiator. In a geothermal system, its the water circulated through the cooling coils in the ground. This heat sink will remove a lot of the heat from the condensed liquid. This liquid refrigerant is then passed through a thermal expansion valve. The higher pressure on the inlet side maintains the refrigerant in a liquid state, while the outlet side is allowed to expand to gas form, which gives out a lot of heat, making it colder. This colder gas is used to absorb heat from your house or car via another heat exchanger. The gas refrigerant then passes through the compressor and the cycle is started all over again.

In southern states, there are a lot of places that don't use furnaces at all. They use a heat pump, which is just like an air conditioning system, but it can direct the heat outside to cool the house, or direct it indoors to heat it. Needless to say, the furnace and A/C system are one in the same. The problem with this is that it is ineffective at very low temperatures, such as what we see up north. A fundamental problem with air conditioning systems and subsequently heat pumps is that they try to be as efficient as possible at a wide range of temperatures. A geothermal system can be tuned to a fairly high efficiency because the heat sink, which is ultimately the ground, is a relatively constant temperature. So to the effect of efficiency, they work great. They WILL lower your energy consumption by a respectable amount at the least. As for the payback, that depends on the consumer whether or not it will be worth it.

I can say that I know this much about it because I have a co-worker who uses wood as his primary heat source for the past 15 years or so. Getting older, he's getting quite tired of having to split, stack, and carry wood all winter long to maintain a comfortable temperature in his house. He looked into the geothermal system as a solution and I was privy to all of his information as I work directly adjacent to him. But if I remember correctly, he only paid out about 14k or so for his system. But I imagine the cost of living in NJ is a bit higher than in MI.

 

[friarjohn]

my boss is looking into one. he had a guy come out and explain the system. the guy said my boss could even heat his pool and pool house.it will cost like 23,000 total.

 

[Barc]

There are also Direct Exchange systems that circulate the refrigerant underground in copper pipes.
They are more efficient, but cost more up front - for the copper and the drilling.
But they go straight down, so you might still have room for a pool later.

That's one I hadn't heard of. I'd be worried about corrosion of the copper but I guess it has all be worked out. Makes sense, though. Takes out the entire heat exchange system of the fluid to refrigerant. And you can do a closed or open loop vertical system, as well, it just usually costs more.

 

[scratchypants]

You can also submerge a closed loop in a pond - more efficient than the ground.

 

[Barc]

You can also submerge a closed loop in a pond - more efficient than the ground.

Agreed. More efficient energy transfer between water and pipe vs. ground and pipe. But, remember, this also depends on the average temp of your pond. If you're heating and your pond is barely above freezing, or if you're cooling and your pond is at 80... You get the picture. A large pond, though, definitely would be worth looking in to as it wouldn't have the extremes nearly as far apart and depending on your location in the world the extremes may be much closer together.

 

[uglygoat]

The fact that the new propane heater has a 10 year warranty parts and labor and the geothermal system only 5 years parts and labor makes me suspicious as well. Are they not as confident they geo system will last as long or have less problems?

there's a ton more variables to break or go wrong. imo the geothermal is like the prius. it's upfront cost takes a long time to earn back in energy savings, and if the ****er breaks down out of warranty, well good luck fixing it, imagine if the pipes in the six foot trench rupture down there, you gotta dig the whole thing up to find it, and you've shot your equation all to hell.

for my money i'd get the new propane furnace, 90plus two stage and a 410-a ac system.

 

[mmb]

there's a ton more variables to break or go wrong. imo the geothermal is like the prius. it's upfront cost takes a long time to earn back in energy savings, and if the ****er breaks down out of warranty, well good luck fixing it, imagine if the pipes in the six foot trench rupture down there, you gotta dig the whole thing up to find it, and you've shot your equation all to hell.

for my money i'd get the new propane furnace, 90plus two stage and a 410-a ac system.

How do the pipes in a 6 foot trench rupture? They are not filled with water, btw. They loaded up ethanol into the slinky pipe used in my application. And the pipe itself is warrantied, in my installation, for 99 years. I have that in writing.

As to the warranty of the furnace, my WaterFurnace has a 10 year parts/labor warranty and we added a rider that as long as we have a yearly checkup/cleaning it's covered for 20 years. The standard propane furnace we replaced was installed in 2003 in new construction and the heat exchanger burned through in the first bend. No warranty from the manufacturer, builder or installer.

 

[Barc]

How do the pipes in a 6 foot trench rupture? They are not filled with water, btw. They loaded up ethanol into the slinky pipe used in my application. And the pipe itself is warrantied, in my installation, for 99 years. I have that in writing.

As to the warranty of the furnace, my WaterFurnace has a 10 year parts/labor warranty and we added a rider that as long as we have a yearly checkup/cleaning it's covered for 20 years. The standard propane furnace we replaced was installed in 2003 in new construction and the heat exchanger burned through in the first bend. No warranty from the manufacturer, builder or installer.

I am glad you are happy with your system. Like I said earlier, I've researched these things for years and really wanted one in my new home. IMO, 99 years is a nice selling feature but will the company be around that long? I hope they are but, in my experience, that is mostly, again, my opinion, a gimmick / sales tool rather than an actual "thing." However, lots of companies do this and stand by their product; Zippo lighters, Case knives, and Craftsman tools all coming to mind as folks who actually will replace something you've purchased if something goes wrong and that have been around a long time. You're very right, though. The pipes (ground shifting, vermin, large vehicles, etc. aside) should never rupture. I'd be more worried about them leaking at the seams which may or may not be covered under the warranty. The problem would be, even with a warranty, if the seams did leak, you wouldn't know where... But, I've not read accounts of this happening so I don't think it is really an issue. Just my negative mind bringing up things! :cross:

As for your heat exchanger, that's bad news, especially about the warranty. My concern, along the same lines as the previous poster, is not necessarily things going wrong, it is things going wrong and having someone come in with the knowledge to work on it and fix it properly. Assuming the company you bought it from is still around, it shouldn't be a big deal. But, if you have my luck, the company you bought it from would be out of business and you'd have to call in "an expert" and it would end up costing more just because it is "different" than a standard HVAC system, even though it is basically the same!

Did you get your system done at the time of construction or afterward? I've still got time at my new construction to put it in and I am still weighing it as an option if I can find it cheaper... I guess I'm sort of in the same boat as the OP only I have basically come to a conclusion based on price vs. payback since I can't get the tax rebate due to it being a new construction.

 

[mmb]

Did you get your system done at the time of construction or afterward? I've still got time at my new construction to put it in and I am still weighing it as an option if I can find it cheaper... I guess I'm sort of in the same boat as the OP only I have basically come to a conclusion based on price vs. payback since I can't get the tax rebate due to it being a new construction.

The Geo system was a retrofit install. We were looking at propane prebuy pricing during the spring/summer of '08 and the pricing was upwards of $3.75 per gallon. We needed to get a new furnace anyway because of the exchanger burnthrough issue and geo payed for itself at 15 years at that price for propane. That also includes the hepa electrostatic filter, UV filtration, and options that bumped the price up about 5k.

Didn't expect propane to fall though the floor over the last year but as is, I've not had to have the 500lb tank filled since March of '08 and last I checked we were still over 70% full. Compare that to when we heated with propane and went through close to three fills a winter.

If your concerned about the company that installed the furnace going out of business, look around and see if there are any other certified dealers in the area to work on it. I looked up WaterFurnace and found 5 dealers within 50 miles of the little town I live in. It's population tips the scales at just under 2000 people.

Geo systems are not new. It's actually fairly simple, fairly old tech. They're just more popular, and competitive, now because of the high energy prices for oil and gas. I don't see those prices going down anytime soon and do see them rapidly increasing as the economy heats back up. Eventually, anyway.

 

[Barc]

If your concerned about the company that installed the furnace going out of business, look around and see if there are any other certified dealers in the area to work on it. I looked up WaterFurnace and found 5 dealers within 50 miles of the little town I live in. It's population tips the scales at just under 2000 people.

Geo systems are not new. It's actually fairly simple, fairly old tech. They're just more popular, and competitive, now because of the high energy prices for oil and gas. I don't see those prices going down anytime soon and do see them rapidly increasing as the economy heats back up. Eventually, anyway.

I live near a fairly large metro area, as in several million folks within a 1 hour drive from me and there aren't all that many around here. I don't know if it is payback, humidity, or just lack of interest but there aren't that many around my area. And of those that are around, most want several $$$ up front to do a calculation... And don't get me started on doing calculations...

Agreed. These systems are fairly simple and old-tech, all things being equal. And you are correct about them being more competitive since there are more of them around, at least in certain markets... But, from my research, I've found that they are pretty much all about the same price, pound for pound, so to speak, or within a few dollars of each other. Maybe a cartel or something? As far as them rapidly increasing, I think it could go either way. It could be like some items where demand dictates a price or it could go like a lot of tech items where it actually goes down as more people get into the market with "newer" systems or just the fact that they have to lower prices to get more business... Time will tell.

 

[jgln]

I live near a fairly large metro area, as in several million folks within a 1 hour drive from me and there aren't all that many around here. I don't know if it is payback, humidity, or just lack of interest but there aren't that many around my area. And of those that are around, most want several $$$ up front to do a calculation... And don't get me started on doing calculations...

Agreed. These systems are fairly simple and old-tech, all things being equal. And you are correct about them being more competitive since there are more of them around, at least in certain markets... But, from my research, I've found that they are pretty much all about the same price, pound for pound, so to speak, or within a few dollars of each other. Maybe a cartel or something? As far as them rapidly increasing, I think it could go either way. It could be like some items where demand dictates a price or it could go like a lot of tech items where it actually goes down as more people get into the market with "newer" systems or just the fact that they have to lower prices to get more business... Time will tell.

I just checked the phone books in the area and only the company I am dealing with advertises geothermal systems. Maybe it is too new for contractors to bother being trained and sell these systems yet or maybe they just haven't advertised it much yet? They are a family run business or 50 people and have been around since 1945. I guess that does concern me a bit too. The limited 5 year warranty really concerns me. I think I will ask why it is so short. Let's face it, this is not just heat but AC too so 5 years is not much for such a system.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

5 years is pretty good. Most conventional systems only get a year manufacturers.

65 years of business concerns you? What, you want a startup with 400 employees?

 

[jgln]

The repair tech said the "motor" was shot and gave me an estimate of $500. A guy here suggested I buy the part and try replacing it myself. Just to see if I could even get it I called a supply house. He asked me which motor, there are 3. Another roadblock. He did tell me the motors run $100-200 maybe more. Just as well, I would probably run into issues I would not know how to resolve. But then again what harm could I do?

I think I am leaning more toward a new propane heater.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Pull the motor and get the plate data. they aren't hard to pull. Usually. A few screws and it "should" slide right out the front.

 

[jgln]

5 years is pretty good. Most conventional systems only get a year manufacturers.

65 years of business concerns you? What, you want a startup with 400 employees?

The propane heater comes with 10 years parts and labor.

No, just that it looks like right now they are the only company in the area that does it. If for whatever reason something happens or I have a bad experience I will not be able to shop around. Well, I bet I could find someone but who knows.

 

[jgln]

Pull the motor and get the plate data. they aren't hard to pull. Usually. A few screws and it "should" slide right out the front.

All I know at this point is it is probably the electric motor he was hitting with a screwdriver, but then again that could be because it was most accessible. How am I to know which motor for sure he thinks is bad without tracking down the tech to talk to. I guess I could try that but if they feel I am trying to do it myself or getting someone else the information may come back sketchy. I would also need to be sure I could return the motor should it not fix the problem. I did just ask the salesman, a licensed HVAC guy and family member, which part he thought was bad and he just said the motor.

 

[uglygoat]

How do the pipes in a 6 foot trench rupture?

it could be a **** install on the underground piping. good luck proving it.

 

[Nova5]

Water from a well? a ground source heatpump might work if you have water around the right temp. 64 degrees is what the well temp is at my parents place, they use the GSHP, and the waste water is driven through a sprinkler system to return it to the soil.

 

[jgln]

Water from a well? a ground source heatpump might work if you have water around the right temp. 64 degrees is what the well temp is at my parents place, they use the GSHP, and the waste water is driven through a sprinkler system to return it to the soil.

I just heard about that option this morning. The problem this guy saw with it was the water used could not permeate back into the ground fast enough and created swamp conditions in the yard. My well is really just a 6" or so tube so I bet they would still need to drill. To me that kind of seems like a waste of water in the aquifer. I wonder how long before environmentalists complain geo thermal is heating or cooling the earth too much and it must be stopped.

I called a guy who used to work for this company before he quit recently. Said dispatcher was trying to tell him how to do his job even though she was not an HVAC tech ( I thought maybe for doing side jobs?). I did not call him originally because I thought he still worked for them and would be working. He has helped me out for free several times. He came over and actually took the motor apart and showed me the seized motor. No charge. Today he is going to try and track down just the motor instead of the whole assembly and call me back.