Residential solar in 2023

[Rodent]

Searched on residential solar power and see it's been about three years since the last thread dedicated to discussion. Thought of reviving that thread from 2020 but thought it'd be best for a fresh reboot on the topic as I'm sure there's been (if nothing else) improvements in manufacturing quality, increased knowledge and experience with installation, and even a possible shift in mindset on the use of solar for personal residences.

I'm a couple days away from finalizing the go on a 13kW system for our home. 32ea Hanwah Qcell 400 panels, Enphase IQ6+ inverters, panels running in 'parallel' vs 'series', and a sub-panel replacement in the shop. WA State and our electric utility have a decent Net Metering agreement. Add to this the Fed Tax incentive for up to 30% of system cost, and WA State exempts sales tax on solar installs.

I'm at 46.3 parallel in an area that's mostly sunny (we get 5"-8" annual rainfall on average), with summer highs in the low 100Fs and winter lows in the +single digits F, and utilize a heat pump for our heating/cooling. All electric appliances.

Who else is going (or has gone) solar and what were your considerations.

 

[Agent]

I self installed an 8kw array in spring of 2019 for $9k out of pocket, with only the federal tax rebate knocking 30% off of that price. That effectively covers our full electrical needs for 9-10 months, and half our needs for the harsh Wisconsin winter months. Our net metering isn't great, so no banking summer generation.

With the push for Mini-Splits for electrical heat, I would love to run those on "free" power, but we'd be hard-pressed to generate enough power when it would be needed most without quadrupling our array.

Net-metering rules definitely make or break the cost-effectiveness of solar more than anything. As it stands, I can add 6KW of capacity for only the cost of panels + $500, but the breakeven time would be twice as long as the original project.

Anyway, I'm glad I did it how and when I did, but some things would have to change to justify adding to what I have.

 

[day_trippr]

You are fortunate to even have net metering in your world, we are on a municipal power system and state regulations are protecting them from having to deal with net metering at all. On the up side, we have one of the lowest rates in the region - way lower than the local big commercial companies - but taking net metering out of the equation completely leaves a practical solar solution that much harder to exploit...

Cheers!

 

[Bilsch]

Searched on residential solar power and see it's been about three years since the last thread dedicated to discussion. Thought of reviving that thread from 2020 but thought it'd be best for a fresh reboot on the topic as I'm sure there's been (if nothing else) improvements in manufacturing quality, increased knowledge and experience with installation, and even a possible shift in mindset on the use of solar for personal residences.

I'm a couple days away from finalizing the go on a 13kW system for our home. 32ea Hanwah Qcell 400 panels, Enphase IQ6+ inverters, panels running in 'parallel' vs 'series', and a sub-panel replacement in the shop.

Why micro inverters vs a single.. do you have shading issues?

 

[Agent]

Not to put words in the OPs mouth, but the most recent codes require panel-level shutdown capabilities. Solaredge string inverter plus panel optimizers were the only string-ish inverter to meet that requirement for a while but they've also had quite a spat of premature failures too. Not to mention that they weren't that much cheaper than the micros.

 

[Rodent]

Panel level control plus a reduced fire risk was the noted reason for individual inverters.

I live in an area where it's not uncommon to have 60+ MPH winds in late Fall thru late Spring. the ability to temporarily drop a damaged panel from the system and have the system still functioning was part of the system design requirements. Unlikely to happen, but if I do have such a scenario I'm pretty certain that my feed from the grid will also be down for some time.

 

[Bilsch]

We've had solar since 2010 and been through some pretty bad storms, one with hail so big it punched holes in the roof, but never lost a panel. Also haven't had any problems with any parts of the system including string inverters. Not having any shade complications string inverters are also more efficient. I hear too many stories about micros dying so I'm not sold on that tech yet.

My last question is if the inverter can shut down in the event of grid dropping why is panel level control an issue? It's just three wires in a conduit between the panels and the inverter.

 

[Civilian]

I'm at 46.3 parallel in an area that's mostly sunny (we get 5"-8" annual rainfall on average), with summer highs in the low 100Fs and winter lows in the +single digits F, and utilize a heat pump for our heating/cooling. All electric appliances.

Who else is going (or has gone) solar and what were your considerations.

We have solar here in So-Cal and I will say running the heat pump will cost you the most. I have 1 heat pump and 2 AC units and my winter usage is a lot higher than summer. The heat pump is in an attached granny flat.

 

[Rodent]

Staged for install tomorrow

 

[mashdar]

Nice! Is qcells a panel mfr?

 

[day_trippr]

Looks like it...

https://us.qcells.com/complete-energy-solutions/solar-panel/

 

[Rodent]

yep - a panel manufacturer in Georgia.

they were founded in Germany and opened the US manufacturing site in 2019

 

[bushpilot]

I look at solar every few years. I really want it, but my electric bill is so low, it just doesn't make sense. About $85/month, Summer or Winter, that with a PHEV (Volt) in the carport.

Of course no air-conditioning in the summer, and wood heat in the winter really helps.

Given a more favorable scenario, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

[Rodent]

had a small hiccup with the panel install - the frame materials onsite did not have the correct feet for the style of metal roof I have on the shop, so we had to postpone panel install for a week while the alternate parts come from the warehouse and the crew is rescheduled.

electrical tie-in making progress

still waiting on a scheduled date for the power utility to disconnect us for a day so the main panel can be upgraded. hoping to have that done in the coming 10-14 days

 

[Rodent]

panel and associated electrical install completed, and awaiting inspection. hoping to get a couple drone images from the installer and will share if I do.

main power disconnect scheduled for mid-week, and the main panel will be swapped out (hopefully) before end of day so we can get it inspected and back on before the utility company calls it a day

remaining timeline:

- panel and associated electrical install permit inspection within the next 10 business days
- once permits signed, can notify electric utility all is good to initiate net metering. should have activated within 10 business days of permit approval notification
- install monitoring app, flip the breaker switch, and start supplying my own power by end of Nov

 

[passedpawn]

Being in sunny FL, and having full net-metering here, solar seemed like a no-brainer. HOWEVER, I got a quote of $152k (before tax credits etc) to install a system that replaces my electric bill. That's frigging nuts. After the federal tax credit, it was still > $100k. That is without any sort of battery banks. 26.5kW system.

 

[mashdar]

Being in sunny FL, and having full net-metering here, solar seemed like a no-brainer. HOWEVER, I got a quote of $152k (before tax credits etc) to install a system that replaces my electric bill. That's frigging nuts. After the federal tax credit, it was still > $100k. That is without any sort of battery banks. 26.5kW system.

26.5kW? Do you use 100kWh+ per day or something?
Thats:
1. A huge system for a house, and
2. A pretty high price even for 26.5kW

Maybe shop around?

 

[Bassman2003]

That is insane. New tech is great but I do not want to be a lending vehicle for a company's expansion. Better to pay the electric bill and not take on all of the financial risk of pre-paying future electric bills.

 

[passedpawn]

26.5kW? Do you use 100kWh+ per day or something?
Thats:
1. A huge system for a house, and
2. A pretty high price even for 26.5kW

Maybe shop around?

I have a big house. I'm going to wait until this insanity settles.

 

[mashdar]

I have a big house. I'm going to wait until this insanity settles.

Yeah, may just be the market.

IDK if they do work in Clearwater, but I've worked with Solar Impact in Gainesville* a few times and they've been reliably good, if you want a second opinion.

But you're right that things are crazy. Also, I haven't looked at what 2020 NEC does to solar installs, but FL changes code on Dec 31.

edit: * I should caveat that I've mostly done commercial/municipal projects with them. Residential could always be the "B" team.

 

[passedpawn]

I'm looking into mini nuke plants. I'm sure they are available somewhere. Maybe a DIY kit or something. Not sure about fuel availability, checking with suppliers in Chechnya.

 

[redrocker652002]

Good stuff. I live in the San Francisco area, where we have been thinking about it but wondering if it is worth it based on the level of sun we get and the amount of fog and cloudiness we get during the winter. I have a 1050 sq ft house and we use a natural gas furnace at the moment. We do not have anything really fancy, but use a lot of power in the Holiday months due to my wife being a member of the Griswolds and decorates the crap out of the house. Anybody in the San Francisco area have any experience and could recommend a company or two for possible quotes? Thanks all

 

[day_trippr]

I just totaled the last 12 months of our electric bill and it came to $1580. We're on a municipal system that has been managed particularly wisely over the decades (we've lived in this town since 1976) so they have one of the lowest rates around. The house is nearly 3000 square feet of living space but in spite of the fact that we have a nearly ideal roof for solar - it's 65 feet long and nearly broadside to the south at 175° and virtually treeless to the south, and I would love to have a solar solution - I don't see the payback being timely enough for a seventy-something year old couple to invest...

Cheers!

 

[mashdar]

wondering if it is worth it based on the level of sun we get and the amount of fog and cloudiness we get during the winter.

I think the Solar Edge layout tool takes weather into account? (Not positive, might only be cloud cover, and fog might be too microclimate specific.)

It does give some nice monthly plots and stuff, though.

edit: or an estimate from a local installer would probably include ROI information. I actually had a rep talk me out of solar because of tree stuff.

 

[Rodent]

No room for any additional panels up on the shop roof, and all routing to the subpanel complete. Power dropping shortly for today's main panel swap

 

[whoaru99]

@Rodent

Do you have the estimated kWh output total for a year for your system?

 

[Rodent]

I did have it, but don't remember offhand. I do remember it's a 12.8kW system but not the total generation potential given the specific specifics

 

[Agent]

I'm sort of curious as well.

My 8kw array is estimated to yield 10mwhr/yr, and has been hitting that +/-.

 

[day_trippr]

If solar was as effective in my latitude during the winter as summer I could probably rationalize a respectable installation to take over the heating and hot water chores which are currently handled by an oil furnace. That would be a significant motivation - roughly $3000 per year of late, bringing the combined annual energy cost close to $4500 (and going up almost certainly) which makes a potential solar play much more interesting.

But, at latitude 42+ the winter inclination profoundly affects fixed panel collection at the time one might most benefit. And then there's the "no net metering" thing on municipal systems in Massachusetts not helping the math. Still an investment dilemma...

Cheers!

 

[Rodent]

https://www.mass.gov/info-details/net-metering-guide
https://www.mass.gov/info-details/net-metering-eligibility
Looks like Net Metering is available in MA. Is your nonaccess because the cap limit has already been met by your utility company?

 

[day_trippr]

Entities that cannot net meter​

• An electric utility
• A generation company
• An aggregator (as defined in G.L. c. 164, § 1)
• A supplier
• An energy marketer
• An energy broker G.L. c. 164, § 139(2)(e).
• A customer of a municipal electric company. Contact your municipal electric company to find out whether it offers net metering.

That one you're looking at is not a true municipal system. Unitil is a national scale company "dba" Fitchburg Gas and Electric...

 

[Rodent]

that's discouraging for sure. one more reminder that I'm thankful to have escaped MA back when I did

 

[day_trippr]

Well...you have to understand, the rule is intended to protect municipal systems from subscribers wandering off. They aren't allowed to compete like commercial entities, and in return they get a pretty much guaranteed subscriber base. It's the same reason I can't get power from another system (although I still get bombarded with competitive advertising from Big Power trying to get my business).

The benefit to the subscriber base is the lowest rates in the region. I'm good with the bargain...

Cheers!

 

[Thorrak]

I’d happily take that trade - Con Ed is charging us $0.30/kWh on its cheapest days. It really puts a thumb on the scale for solar payback calculations!

 

[day_trippr]

I just checked again and our rate is just over 14 cents/KWH, pretty much the same as it's been for years...

Cheers!

 

[passedpawn]

I don't mean to change the subject here, but note that electric vehicle charging presents a SIGNIFICANT load at your meter. Today, EVs are just a novelty, but as you can see, there are pressures to ensure every driveway has 3 of these in the near future. All of these EVs want to charge all night. I'm guessing that much of the grid just can't do it.

I mention this because if solar was an option, with battery banks in the garage, it would alleviate some of this problem.

I keep thinking that the power companies might actually join the solar panel business. To me, that makes sense (and maybe would result in lower costs to consumers, with some interesting financing available).

 

[day_trippr]

I don't know if it would be a good thing or not, but I expect there would be a regulatory leap required for power companies to be allowed to compete in the solar arena...

Cheers!

 

[Thorrak]

The reason EVs charge at night is to encourage demand when power costs are cheaper (or negative! Plants are expensive to wind up/down). We just got an EV only meter installed with time-of-use rates and the daytime rate is 30.88c/kWh during summer peak, and 2.18c/kWh during off peak (midnight to 8 am).


Delivery is another 14.116c, so even on time of use off peak we’re still more expensive than @day_trippr

 

[Bassman2003]

I think the localized power approach that Elon has spoken about is a better way forward than "the grid". Transmission is a loser and makes everything more expensive. But I think we need more efficient energy creation out of solar to really make things work. The new Ford Lightning pickup or the electric Hummer draw a lot of power to fill up their tanks so to speak. If one actually drove those vehicles a lot during the week I do not believe most residential solar installations could keep up.

 

[passedpawn]

I think the localized power approach that Elon has spoken about is a better way forward than "the grid". Transmission is a loser and makes everything more expensive. But I think we need more efficient energy creation out of solar to really make things work. The new Ford Lightning pickup or the electric Hummer draw a lot of power to fill up their tanks so to speak. If one actually drove those vehicles a lot during the week I do not believe most residential solar installations could keep up.

BTW I believe that Tesla is getting out of the solar roof business. They might still make panels, not sure, but the installation biz is going away.