Gas and Temperature Control for Dummies

[kladue]

Drop the power to the "24V" as that was used for the vent damper not the spark system. For the BCS 460 connection why not use a 5-10 amp SSR and keep it relatively simple like you would for the pump and other AC loads.
Here is another ignition diagram, just change controller contacts for SSR http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/Ignition#5420037998508461298. If the spark wire with the kit is to short a trip to the auto parts store for "wire core" ignition wire sold by the foot, a spark plug connector and boot for igniter end, female spade connector for spark module end, and you should be good to go. Call the auto parts store first as not all will have this type wire on hand, usually Napa autoparts stocks it.

 

[RonRock]

Thanks Kevin, I see the SSR use now. Had a Brain Fart on that. I looked at the diagram you linked. It looks basically the same as the one on post #1. If I switch the TH-W wire I loose all voltage to the ignition module when switch is open (no heat) that shuts everything down including pilot. Is this correct or should the pilot remain "lit" without power? In my test today it went out.

 

[RonRock]

Anybody?

After further study it appears that I was mistaken on the pilot light. Am I now correct that the pilot only lights on a call for heat, then lights burner? The pilot will remain lit during call for heat, and shut down when heat is shut down.

My initial thought was that the pilot would light when power is turned on to the system, and remain lit until power removed (unplugged.) But relight if flame is lost.

Which way is correct?

 

[Sawdustguy]

Anybody?

After further study it appears that I was mistaken on the pilot light. Am I now correct that the pilot only lights on a call for heat, then lights burner? The pilot will remain lit during call for heat, and shut down when heat is shut down.

My initial thought was that the pilot would light when power is turned on to the system, and remain lit until power removed (unplugged.) But relight if flame is lost.

Which way is correct?

That is correct. The pilot will light when heat is called for and stay on during the heating process. This is a much safer arrangement especially if you are brewing on a windy day. Also if the pilot is blown out by the wind it will re-attempt to relight the pilot and if for some reason your burner blows out it will be relit by the pilot.

 

[RonRock]

Thanks Guy, Took a while to get that through my thick head. So turns out this is easy to wire. Just follow the excellent instructions you have written for "Dummies." Sorry for this volley of ignorance, but now I'm good.

I do have one more issue with the setup. My burner is very weak. I'm sure that is because of the 3/8 line I have supplying the burners. So I'll try some 1/2 and see what that does. But that's another story.

Thanks,
Ron

 

[Sawdustguy]

Thanks Guy, Took a while to get that through my thick head. So turns out this is easy to wire. Just follow the excellent instructions you have written for "Dummies." Sorry for this volley of ignorance, but now I'm good.

I do have one more issue with the setup. My burner is very weak. I'm sure that is because of the 3/8 line I have supplying the burners. So I'll try some 1/2 and see what that does. But that's another story.

Thanks,
Ron

Great job Ron! I think with the larger gas line you will be all set.

 

[gruversm]

I have a Honeywell S86F for NG. Will this work OK?

 

[kladue]

The S86F should work with a dual valve setup, it was the predecesor product to the S8610U which has more bells and whistles for the high efficiency burner systems.

 

[Sawdustguy]

It appears as if it will work. Kladue will correct me if I am wrong.

 

[gruversm]

I currently use two Auber SYL-1512A2 for my Brutus setup. Can I use these PIDs with the Honeywell ignition system?

Does the SYL-1512A2 have the correct terminal connections?

 

[kladue]

The SYl-1512's will work for the ignition modules, the #4&5 terminals are used and the unit is programmed to use relay output not SSR. I believe there are others in this group using the same controller for the same job without problems.

 

[jlandin]

Thanks to all of you for the great information. I'm learning a lot reading through all of these great posts!

The Y8610U seems like a nice all-in-one (almost) solution, but that really is more than I want to spend per burner ($230+). I'm planning to automate 2 burners (HLT and MT) with integrated standing pilot valves, but I don't need all of the re-light sequence stuff. If one of my burners has a wind blowout, I simply want the valves to close (pilot and main).

Here's what I'm considering for each burner. Can one of you experts please help to confirm that I'm on the right track, and see if there is anything that I'm missing? (I'm not including the liquid-side: PID, temp probe, etc)

66.32 Honeywell VR8200A2132 Link
5.40 LP Orifice 390686-1 Link
5.65 Natural Gas To LP Conversion Kit Link
3.95 24" Thermocouple Link
15.95 Honeywell Q314A4586 Pilot Burner Link
------
97.27 Total (approx)


Edit: Sorry I meant to mention that I'm using Banjo BG14 burners converted to low pressure LP.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Earlier in this thread, it is stated we can extend spark cables. However, while reading through my Honeywell S87 direct spark ignition module manual (I am using a pilot in conjunction) it states I am not to use more that 36" of spark cable. This is repeated several times throughout the manual.

How important is this? Am I being unsafe in any way by extending the cable? It would save a bunch of money and headache if I could just extend the cables to say eight feet.

 

[RonRock]

I actually bought a coil of replacement ignition wire from an HVAC supplier. It is the correct wire for the application. Not sure if it really matters, spark plug wire may work just as well. But if you want some wire LMK.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

No love on the longer spark cable? I don't see why it couldn't be longer. The only thing I could foresee is a change int he resistance farking things up... but why can't I just use a larger gauge cable then?

 

[kladue]

The concern for the longer cable was the losses from capacitive losse if the cable was in contact with metal frame. A 5' wire core spark plug cable from an auto parts store seems to work Ok but a couple feet are hanging in air and not in contact with metal.

 

[RonRock]

No love on the longer spark cable? I don't see why it couldn't be longer. The only thing I could foresee is a change int he resistance farking things up... but why can't I just use a larger gauge cable then?

Possibly misunderstood. I have 25 foot of the proper cable. Don't need it all.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I planned to use ceramic standoffs as advised in the manual. So if I use standoffs to avoid metal contact I should be OK? Would adding an extra insulating layer help?

Here is the module manual:

http://www.absolutaire.com/docs/component_docs/indexed/185.pdf

I was planning to weld #6-32 bolts to the frame, then use ceramic standoffs (McMaster part #94335A126), wire tie mounts for 6-32 screws (McMaster part #7566K27), and nylon wire ties to mount the cable.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Possibly misunderstood. I have 25 foot of the proper cable. Don't need it all.

That would be incredible RonRock! I just want to be sure I won't fry the cable or the modules or anything... you know how we do.

If those better than I say I should be fine, then I would love to have some of your excess cable. I will probably need about 14 feet. I have one 8' run, and one 6' run.

 

[kladue]

It should not be neccessary to go to the trouble of ceramic standoffs, just support the cable with the nylon loop supports so it does not lay tight against the metal supports. Some contact is okay, you will probably only have about 6" in contact with the metal structure when your done. The number of use cycles with a brew setup is nowhere near what a typical heating system exeriences in a typical year. The larger concern will be radiant heat and the exposed wires on the pilot assmbly, silicone sparkplug boots would be a good choice for this location, to judge heat from burner on wiring, touch wiring after 10 minutes and see how hot it is.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Possibly misunderstood. I have 25 foot of the proper cable. Don't need it all.

Care to share the love with a couple of feet?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Awesome! Those standoffs were going to cost quite a bit, I am glad I can dump them. They can always be added back later.

I am going to use these spark plug boots:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00029JK96/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00029JK8M/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

And protect the cable and boots with these:
http://cableorganizer.com/insultherm-spark/
http://cableorganizer.com/nylon/


Wow. You guys just saved this project like $500+. I though I was going to have to use local enclosures for each burner and all sorts of conduit. Not anymore!!!

:rockin:

 

[RonRock]

I'm having trouble with my BCS/8610 setup. I can not get the BCS to reliably control the igniter's. I have spent way too much time diagnosing this. And have pestered CodeRage to the point he probably never wants to hear from me again. Hope not! He has been great help.

Anyway I think we have the trouble narrowed down to an RF issue interfering with the BCS when the igniter is sparking. I can get things to work if I move the BCS out of the enclosure that I have built for my stand. But the stand is built and I really don't want to move the BCS. Is there anyway to shield the BCS from the RF?

I mention this here looking for advice, but also for others that design with the 8610's. Be aware of the issue. It has been very hard to diagnose. If I only had a spectrum analyzer, or whatever to find RF.

 

[kladue]

Try .01uF-.1uF capacitors from outputs/inputs on the BCS unit to brewstand frame to shunt the RF harmonics from the spark coil and leads. Another step would be to loop wires to BCS through ferrite sleeves to also reduce RF influence on inputs.

 

[RonRock]

Thanks Kevin. I have tried this,

May be hard to see. I have a Resister and a cap wired between the 24V gnd and TH-W terminals on the 8610. This "seemed" like it helped, but not totally fixed the issue. BTW CodeRage suggested this to me. I do not have enough electrical knowledge to figure that out. But tell me what to do and I do OK.

Do you have a different idea?

Would a tin box around the 8610 help to hold the RF in? I'd use galvanized sheet, or I also have copper sheet that could be used.

 

[kladue]

A quick test would be to tape a cover of aluminum foil over ignition module leaving enough space around spark lead to prevent arc and ground it to the frame. The other thing that can be done is to make sure that the ground wire between module and pilot is secure and at least 16 Ga.. Try placing a .1uF capacitor across the 24V Gnd and THW connections without a resistor in series and across the 5V and Gnd connection on the BCS-460 to help limit the RF interference problems. The next step would be to install same size capacitor between outputs and Gnd and the same for the inputs to bleed RF pickup to ground.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Ron,

If the aluminum foil suggestion that Kevin made works, you can build a nice neat little Fadaday enclosure to go around the spark modure out of double sided PC board. You can get copper tape so you can solder the enclosure electrically tight and just ground the enclosure to earth ground.

 

[cheese]

Hi,

Just got this on Ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330445102519&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

I still haven't got
24 VAC transformer (would 50 hz will be good as well?)
temperature controller

what else would I need to control my HLT ?

 

[Sawdustguy]

Hi,

Just got this on Ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330445102519&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

I still haven't got
24 VAC transformer (would 50 hz will be good as well?)
temperature controller

what else would I need to control my HLT ?

Just the 24 volt transformer and a Q345A pilot burner.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HONEYWELL-Q345A...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c12a96383

 

[cheese]

Just the 24 volt transformer and a Q345A pilot burner.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HONEYWELL-Q345A...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c12a96383

Thanks for the response, few more questions

I'm using LPG, would this pilot burner still be good?

What's the purpose of the pilot burner ? Is it a must or could I manage without it (to save the extra cost)?

 

[Sawdustguy]

Thanks for the response, few more questions

I'm using LPG, would this pilot burner still be good?

What's the difference between the pilot burner and the igniter-sensor included in the Y8610? Can I manage without it (to save the extra cost)?

Yes, but you may need a different orfice for the pilot burner. Unfortunately you will need a pilot burner. The Y8610U kit you purchased assumed you already have a pilot burner and has parts to retrofit one. Since you do not have a pilot burner to retrofit you need to buy one. If you buy a Q345 you do not need the retrofit parts that come with the Y8610U because the Q345 is designed to work directly with a VR8304M intermittent pilot valve that comes with the Y8610U kit. The igniter sensor included with the kit is used when retrofitting or upgrading a non Honeywell pilot burner. I also forgot to mention you will need a short length of 1/4" aluminum tubing to supply gas from the valve to the pilot burner.

 

[MrSaLTy]

Sorry to drag up an older thread again but I have been stalking the board lately with thought of a brutus type system with this type of configuration for the MT and the HLT. If I were to use one of these retrofit kits with the spark ignition etc, which auber PID do I want? The SYL-2342 with Relay Output or SYL-2352 with SSR control output?

Also, would I be running the PID in on/off mode (it would seem to me i would be) or is there a way to actually run it in the PID mode with this configuration? I thought I remember seeing somewhere on here Sawdustguy I think it was say that he operates it in PID mode but I can't remember. Is it actually possible to do that and if so what setting would I have to look out for. Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[kladue]

The relay output model controller would be the simpler way to go, and just on/off operation as the PID function would not help much because of the long time lag between on, and temperature change.

 

[gruversm]

Can the SYL-1512A be used with a spark ignition?

 

[ClaudiusB]

Also, would I be running the PID in on/off mode (it would seem to me i would be) or is there a way to actually run it in the PID mode with this configuration? I thought I remember seeing somewhere on here Sawdustguy I think it was say that he operates it in PID mode but I can't remember. Is it actually possible to do that and if so what setting would I have to look out for. Thanks in advance for any advice.

Post number 4
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/honeywell-s8610u-171094/

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

 

[Decanthas]

I have a question regarding the S8610U module:

Does the unit open the pilot valve and ignite the pilot anytime there is power supplied between the 24V GND and 24V terminals? And my second question: In order to call the main gas solenoid, 24V must then be supplied to the TH-W?

I was looking at Ron's diagram in which the pilot is lit anytime the system is powered. Why specifically is this bad?

 

[akthor]

I must be truly dumb cuz I looked at it and still don't know what I am looking at

 

[Sawdustguy]

I have a question regarding the S8610U module:

Does the unit open the pilot valve and ignite the pilot anytime there is power supplied between the 24V GND and 24V terminals? And my second question: In order to call the main gas solenoid, 24V must then be supplied to the TH-W?

I was looking at Ron's diagram in which the pilot is lit anytime the system is powered. Why specifically is this bad?

The way I use the S8610U when 24VAC is applied to the TH-W terminal the pilot gas is turned on and lit then the main gas is turned on and your burner lites. When there is no 24VAC going to the TH-W terminal the pilot and main valve shut down.

 

[Namako]

I have read the thread, and I just have to say... WOW!!!

If Zainasheff and Palmer can wax philosophically about yeast and make a million bucks, there's SURELY a book somewhere in this thread as well!!

I have a couple of twists on the subject that I need help with, and I don't think it was captured... Of course, I've had more than a couple of homebrewed altbiers this evening, and I may have missed it...

I'd like to automate a couple of low-pressure propane Hurricane burners (HLT/MT) using PIDs. I've already gone out and purchased a couple of items, and I'm hoping I haven't bought the wrong stuff.

PIDs: Omega CN9000A Temperature Controllers (several models, incl. CN9111A, CN 9121A, CN9211A, and CN9221A)
Gas Valves: White Rodgers 36C03U Universal Standing Pilot Fast Open Manifold Gas Valve (http://www.drillspot.com/products/77552/White_Rodgers_36C03U-333_Combination_Gas_Valve) - this is a MILLIVOLTvalve (750 mV/.750 V) rather than the 24V valves discussed in the thread, hence the twist
Thermocouples: RobertShaw 1980-018 Universal Snap Fit
Pilots: Honeywell Target Type Q314A 4586

The terminals on the valves are labeled TH, TH/PG and PG, and I haven't found a reference for what they stand for, not even in the documentation provided in the box.

So, my question is, can I use these, or am I going to be standing in line in the post X'Mas rush hoping to return them?

What is the difference between a millivolt valve and a 24V valve?

Thanks in advance!!! Hopefully I can get this all installed in time to brew up a maibock for the Spring!!

 

[Sawdustguy]

I have read the thread, and I just have to say... WOW!!!

If Zainasheff and Palmer can wax philosophically about yeast and make a million bucks, there's SURELY a book somewhere in this thread as well!!

I have a couple of twists on the subject that I need help with, and I don't think it was captured... Of course, I've had more than a couple of homebrewed altbiers this evening, and I may have missed it...

I'd like to automate a couple of low-pressure propane Hurricane burners (HLT/MT) using PIDs. I've already gone out and purchased a couple of items, and I'm hoping I haven't bought the wrong stuff.

PIDs: Omega CN9000A Temperature Controllers (several models, incl. CN9111A, CN 9121A, CN9211A, and CN9221A)
Gas Valves: White Rodgers 36C03U Universal Standing Pilot Fast Open Manifold Gas Valve (http://www.drillspot.com/products/77552/White_Rodgers_36C03U-333_Combination_Gas_Valve) - this is a MILLIVOLTvalve (750 mV/.750 V) rather than the 24V valves discussed in the thread, hence the twist
Thermocouples: RobertShaw 1980-018 Universal Snap Fit
Pilots: Honeywell Target Type Q314A 4586

The terminals on the valves are labeled TH, TH/PG and PG, and I haven't found a reference for what they stand for, not even in the documentation provided in the box.

So, my question is, can I use these, or am I going to be standing in line in the post X'Mas rush hoping to return them?

What is the difference between a millivolt valve and a 24V valve?

Thanks in advance!!! Hopefully I can get this all installed in time to brew up a maibock for the Spring!!

The difference is that yours works with a .75 volt DC signal instead of a 24 volt AC signal to turn the valve on. Some how you will need a .75 volt DC source to run to your PID to turn the valve on and off. They do make the same valve in a 24 volt version. Making the .75 volts DC is cheap and easy enough using a 5 volt DC wall wart and two resistors.

You are going to need to purchase a White Rodgers Pilot burner and thermocouple not the Honeywell and Robert Shaw. If I am not mistaken the PG9A38JTL24 will work but double check that.

BTW, why are you looking to buy that Omega PID? They are over $200 brand new. An Auber PID and RTD will cost under $100 and do the job nicely.

Here is the manual to your White Rodgers valve: http://www.emersonclimate.com/en-US/products/valves/Documents/0037-6264.pdf