funky saison insights, please

[Jebediahscooter]

Hi all,

Brett neophyte here. I'm going to be brewing up 11 gallons of this over the weekend:

60% pilsner
28% wheat
10% munich 20L
2% acid malt

OG 1.051, grains are already bought and milled.

90 minute boil, 2oz Fuggles @ 60, 1oz Perle @ 15, 1oz Perle @ 5 --> 23 IBUs. I also have some homegrown Sterling on hand, along with Nelson Sauvin, Amarillo, and Simcoe. Won't have a chance to hit the LHBS before brewing, as it is 45 minutes away.

I've stepped up a starter of wlp670 this week, currently crashing in the fridge. I also have a container of ecy03, no starter. My plan is to split the batch between wlp670 & ecy03, let it ride for three months, and see what's what before bottling in champagne bottles.

What mash temp should I shoot for? I'm looking to do a single infusion. My thought was 155...a bit high, create some brett food?

Dregs? I had originally intended to pitch some HF Arthur & E. dregs into one or both fermenters, but I found out that he started conditioning with wine yeast. Maybe CS Surette, Logsdon Seizoen Bretta, or something of that ilk. I've heard that the brett character from ecy03 is mellow, so I was hoping to ramp it up some. Ultimately, I'm looking for a blend of earthy funk and some tartness. Think HF saisons, Fantome (particularly some bottles of Printemps I've had, great citrus tartness), etc.

Should I transfer or just let em ride in plastic buckets for the whole time?

Finally, any thoughts on fermentation temps? I was thinking of pitching low 60s, letting it free rise to the low 70s, holding it there, and then ramping up if either needs some help finishing. Once primary fermentation is complete, I'll need to free up ferm cabinet space and will move the buckets to my cellar (stable, cool temps).

If I decide to fruit half of the batch, I'll go with blackberries. I noticed a massive number of bushes starting to flower in the woods around my house. How long in to the process to add them?

I'm not opposed to adding more bugs to the mix, but I'm not looking for this to be an 18 month project or anything.

Any thoughts, tips, things I'm not thinking about, etc. would be appreciated.

 

[billl]

Not a brett expert by any stretch, but I'm half way through a wlp670 saison. Mashed at 152. Pitched at 65 and let free rise into the mid 70's for 4 days and then force ramped to 80 for a week. (would have waited longer if there wasn't brett following up) It tasted a pronounced peppery classic saison with a mild bit of funk. No real tartness. Moved it to a 70 degree room and its been sitting there for about a month. The brett seems to be quite happy and munching away. It's obviously not done yet, but it doesn't seem to be going in a "tart" direction. ( You might want to toss in some dregs if you are going for that.) I'm planning on dry hopping mine to bring out a little more citrus vs going for tartness.

 

[Limestone_Cowboy]

surprised about your 670 and tartness. My two are developing a decent amount of it, although I'm still trying to preceive what actual tartness exists againt the dryness that set in. Went easy on the hops (saaz, ekg).. mashed 150-151. One's 1060-1008, the other 1050-1006. Ramped up like you did. Sorry to OP, not a brett expert either.

fwiw, from what I've gathered, brett doesn't need fermentables like sacc does, so I'd mash to whatever dryness you want, the operative word here being balance (with phenols/esters, and whatever fermenting regimin). These are my dabble into bretts, so there's probably a lot to learn from the experience itself.

also, the first one went mid 60's mid 70's the whole time. The other one went same except I put the primary in a shady spot early one morning outside and it went well into the 80's. That one is much more fruity, and maybe even a touch fusel. All over the course of 48 hours. The 80's one is Pils/Vienna and of a differnet body than the first (rahr 2 row, wheat). In retrospect. the delicate nature of the pils might have been the one that I should've went mid 60's to mid 70's. Balance and all. We'll see.

 

[Jebediahscooter]

Thanks for sharing thoughts, guys. Anybody else?

fwiw, from what I've gathered, brett doesn't need fermentables like sacc does, so I'd mash to whatever dryness you want, the operative word here being balance (with phenols/esters, and whatever fermenting regimin). These are my dabble into bretts, so there's probably a lot to learn from the experience itself.

Was actually just reading OldSock's Zymurgy article on sour beer mashes last night, and he said the same...

"Brettanomyces' production of flavorful esters and phenols does not require vast stores of carbohydrates. Therefore, if you are not adding lactic acid bacteria, there is no reason to go out of your way to create a dextrinous wort."

 

[smokinghole]

Just brew as you would normally. I mash around 152 for about 1.050 or a little less on my Saisons. They all get to 1.004 or lower. I do not add any simple sugars, just pils, some vienna, spelt (or other raw cereal grain), and 2-4% acid malt (for the mash ph). Brett is just another yeast but a fun and more interesting one. I barely brew anything without some Brett.

 

[Coff]

I see you guys mentioning looking for tartness from 670. That blend is just sacch and Brett, and neither organism will give you a sour beer. The Brett strain may create slight amounts if acidity but if you're looking for more pronounced tartness your going to need to use Lacto/Pedio to get it.

 

[Limestone_Cowboy]

Perhaps I should have said 'a little tangy', as tart implies something predominant in the taste as you said. 670 is predominantly spices and fruits, at least in the absence of any true aging so far

 

[Jebediahscooter]

I see you guys mentioning looking for tartness from 670. That blend is just sacch and Brett, and neither organism will give you a sour beer. The Brett strain may create slight amounts if acidity but if you're looking for more pronounced tartness your going to need to use Lacto/Pedio to get it.

Tart to me means "a little tangy," as another poster mentioned. It's that tang, quick, not lingering, not sour. I think of eating fruit that's mostly ripe and sweet, but with some tartness in the skins. I understand that Brett does not sour a beer.

 

[billl]

I see you guys mentioning looking for tartness from 670. That blend is just sacch and Brett, and neither organism will give you a sour beer. The Brett strain may create slight amounts if acidity but if you're looking for more pronounced tartness your going to need to use Lacto/Pedio to get it.

Good clarification. I wasn't expecting anything like a sour beer, but some yeast do impart a tart edge - eg belgian wit. I've read a lot of mixed reviews about how that kind of tartness is expressed in wlp670. Brett seems to have all sorts of crazy reactions depending on what you pair it with.