Freeze Distillation story in Time Magazine
- Thread starter edkittley
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
shanecb
Well-Known Member
A buddy of mine had a bottle of Tactical Nuclear Penguin a few weeks ago. He said it was much smoother than you would expect. He put up a video review on YouTube about it, if anyone is interested I can link to it.
shanecb
Well-Known Member
Why not? I've never seen any sort of definition like that. I don't see any reason you can't distill beer and call it beer.
homebrewer_99
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2005
- Messages
- 19,581
- Reaction score
- 1,219
- Location
- I-80, Exit 27 (near the Quad Cities)
But the US considers freezing the water and removing the ice from beer as distilling...thus illegal in the US...(same goes for Jacking Apple Cider...)
Actually, it isn't distillation... it is concentration, which is legal.
I guess it is a grey area. Do I consider keystone ice beer? Yes. Do I consider a porter with bourbon added to it beer? Yes. I don't think that nuclear penguin is. I see your point, but see it differently.
Like most things, the US tax law probably has the most definitive answer.
Like most things, the US tax law probably has the most definitive answer.
shanecb
Well-Known Member
How do you think whiskey is made? Beer without hops that's distilled.
Regardless, it's freeze concentrating. It's just freezing the beer and removing the ice since ethanol won't freeze until ~-174*F, but the water in the beer will. Removing water (dilution) concentrates the abv.
From Wiki:
"Distillation is a method of separating mixtures based on differences in their volatilities in a boiling liquid mixture."
Distilling is heating of alcohol. Alcohols have a lower boiling point than water, so they evaporate first (for the most part), and then the vapors are caught and cooled/condensed into liquid again. Methanol has a lower boiling point than Ethanol, thus the pouring out of the first runnings which maybe contain any methanol, then you start to get Ethanol.
Haha...I was going to use the same example from the other side....
"If you add hops to whiskey, would you call it beer?". I wouldn't, but it certainly seems I'm in the wrong here. And stubborn about it.
The way I see it, concentrating is very close distilling. It just exploits different freezing points, instead of different vapor pressures. A little bit of concentrating, I'll stamp it beer. A lot, and I call it hopped whiskey.
Priemus
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2009
- Messages
- 448
- Reaction score
- 3
Because when you turn wort into a distilled product you dont call it wort, you call it mash, and the end product you call whisky
(albeit hopped whisky)
homebrewer_99
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2005
- Messages
- 19,581
- Reaction score
- 1,219
- Location
- I-80, Exit 27 (near the Quad Cities)
All I know is what I've read...so...
Here's a quote from Cider - Making, Using & Enjoying Sweet & Hard Cider by Annie Proulx & Lew Nichols, 3rd Edition, dated 2003, page 205:
"Home cidermakers who think they've found a way through the federal barriers to farm-made applejack by making "frozen-heart" applejack --
seperating the ethyl alcohol out from the chief by fractional crystallization -- will be disappointed to know that
The product derived by the drawing off of ethyl alcohol from a barrel of frozen hard cider would be considered to be distilled spirits as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5002(a)(80)(A). It is unlawful to produce any distilled spirits at a place other than a qualified distilled spirits plant. To do so would subject the producer to the penalites of 26 U.S.C. 5601.
The penalties are a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than five years, or both, for each offense."
Also, the way I remember it is "Ice beer" or similar products like "Icehouse" are more about a "process" and not the "final product" sold to consumers. They do freeze out some water, but it's put back in at packaging time.
Here's a quote from Cider - Making, Using & Enjoying Sweet & Hard Cider by Annie Proulx & Lew Nichols, 3rd Edition, dated 2003, page 205:
"Home cidermakers who think they've found a way through the federal barriers to farm-made applejack by making "frozen-heart" applejack --
seperating the ethyl alcohol out from the chief by fractional crystallization -- will be disappointed to know that
The product derived by the drawing off of ethyl alcohol from a barrel of frozen hard cider would be considered to be distilled spirits as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5002(a)(80)(A). It is unlawful to produce any distilled spirits at a place other than a qualified distilled spirits plant. To do so would subject the producer to the penalites of 26 U.S.C. 5601.
The penalties are a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than five years, or both, for each offense."
Also, the way I remember it is "Ice beer" or similar products like "Icehouse" are more about a "process" and not the "final product" sold to consumers. They do freeze out some water, but it's put back in at packaging time.
billc68
Well-Known Member
Not sure what the laws in Canada are for "concentrating" by freezing. But I thought it might be fun to try it with fermented molasses with vanilla, nutmeg, ginger and cinnamon and then freeze concentrate it and age it for a year or two in a carboy with some toasted oak. May add the spices after the fact. Could even back sweeten it with coke and the carbonated it in a keg... MMMmm I think I might be on to something.
homebrewer_99
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2005
- Messages
- 19,581
- Reaction score
- 1,219
- Location
- I-80, Exit 27 (near the Quad Cities)
Interestingly enough...for Canada, same source, page 208:
"The Excise Act (Canada) S.R. CE-12 (1972), Section 3(1) prohibits the home manufacture of apple brandy and any other spirit by distillation or any process whatever which, as in the United States, includes fractional crystallization. Controls are effected nationally through a system of licensing, and provincially, as in Quebec, by permit."
Sorry...
"The Excise Act (Canada) S.R. CE-12 (1972), Section 3(1) prohibits the home manufacture of apple brandy and any other spirit by distillation or any process whatever which, as in the United States, includes fractional crystallization. Controls are effected nationally through a system of licensing, and provincially, as in Quebec, by permit."
Sorry...
In an episode of Basic Brewing Radio, James Spencer got some interesting perspectives on fractional freezing. The conclusion he drew is that fractional freezing at home is actually legal.
It's definitely a gray area, but we've been allowing the discussion of fractional freezing here at HBT, so long as it pertains to beer, wine, mead, or cider. The discussion of more traditional distillation is still verboten, as the law is not at all gray in that area.
It's definitely a gray area, but we've been allowing the discussion of fractional freezing here at HBT, so long as it pertains to beer, wine, mead, or cider. The discussion of more traditional distillation is still verboten, as the law is not at all gray in that area.
homebrewer_99
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2005
- Messages
- 19,581
- Reaction score
- 1,219
- Location
- I-80, Exit 27 (near the Quad Cities)
Yuri: As much as James tries to be as informative and entertaining as possible, just how did he "draw this conclusion"?
You know he is from Arkansas...the ex-home of the Clinton's, who alledgely allowed the CIA to fly their cocaine laden planes into Mena airport for distribution to the American masses...for profit...for themselves and to feed the American penal system...but I digress...
I have every episode downloaded. I'll have to check, but do you remember which one?
I think it was an episode from 2008. He received a letter from a fan who is a lawyer. I don't remember all of the details, but it shouldn't be too tough to find.
But the US considers freezing the water and removing the ice from beer as distilling...thus illegal in the US...(same goes for Jacking Apple Cider...)
James at basic brewing dispelled that myth that freeze distillation of beer is illegal at least two years ago by actually calling the TTB and clearing it up. It's prefectly legal to do it. There's several threads on here with that information.
Because it is NOT distillation, in reality it is concentration.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/freeze-distillation-104882/
The Basic Brewing folks even demoed it here making a barleywine.
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=february-20-2009-barleywine-ice-beer
SenorD
Active Member
Hmm- isn't freeze-distilling a beer up to 40% abv starting to get dangerous? I know one of the major reasons non-professional distilling is frowned upon [other than the missed opportunities for taxation], and why they generally don't save the first fraction of distillate is the potential for concentrating methanol.
I'd be somewhat hesitant to drink a freeze-distilled beverage of hard liquor strength, since that method wouldn't remove the methanol...
I'd be somewhat hesitant to drink a freeze-distilled beverage of hard liquor strength, since that method wouldn't remove the methanol...
homebrewer_99
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2005
- Messages
- 19,581
- Reaction score
- 1,219
- Location
- I-80, Exit 27 (near the Quad Cities)
Thanks Yuri and Revvy...I'll have a look at it tomorrow. 
billc68
Well-Known Member
Well, I have thought about this too, and my conclusion, right or wrong... is if the methanol is already in your beer or wine or fermented molasses for making rum etc. and you concentrate it and then drink enough of it to feel intoxicated... and drink enough beer to feel intoxicated, you have more or less drunk the same amount of alcohol either way.
the only difference I see, is you get a bit more water and maybe that helps.
Either way though, I think you would consume the same amount of alcohol.
Now I spoke with a profesional distiller that told me you only get methanol after you heat your alcohol in the first place, not sure if this is true or not. However methanol does come off first, what if you just heated your product to 68C or so and hold it for a few minutes, Methanol evaporates at 64.7 Ethanol evaporates at 78C. Then freeze "concentrate" Your beverage and carbonate or whatever you wish to do with it.
Oh god, whenever the freeze distillation topic comes up it's ALWAYS followed by the "methanol in beer" lunacy. Threads like these are so predictable. I'll give the same answer given in all the other threads.
I'll quote from someone who I usually disagree with, but here he is right.
In fact if you google "amount of methanol in beer" you get no real information, just more discussions like this about freeze distillation, with the same idiotic arguments.
I couldn't find any concrete numbers.....
If there is any methanol present in beer it is of such a trace amount that even if you managed to concentrate it through freeze concentration, that it still would be too negligible to worry about.
So let's not.
carnevoodoo
Well-Known Member
Yes it is beer.
http://beeradvocate.com/beer/style/36
While not as extreme, the eisbock style is a traditional one using the exact same methods. Concentration by removing ice is nothing new. Taking it to the 40%+ range is new, but this is still beer.
Wow. Didn't realize my original post was going to start a debate. Just wanted to point out an interesting article and something to consider trying. While I do agree 43% is extreme, BJCP has guidelines for Eisbock and even in the notes has traditional ABVs from 7% to 33%. Their opinion is good enough for me.
Just wanted to point out an interesting article and something to consider trying. While I do agree 43% is extreme, BJCP has guidelines for Eisbock and even in the notes has traditional ABVs from 7% to 33%. Their opinion is good enough for me.I'll quote my first post again:
Now, I'll put the amount of Methanol into perspective. With a system distilling 40L (a little over 10gal) of wash/"beer" that is 10%, collecting at 95%, you get 4L of Ethanol/Alcohol, about 1gal. Now you probably only collect 20ml of Methanol in the first runnings, however it's best to throw out 100-200ml just to be safe. It's not going to kill your or make you go blind if you don't toss enough, unless you drink those runnings straight or something. More methanol could lead to a worse hangover and make the alcohol taste worse since it's more than just Methanol too. At any rate.
Freeze concentrating is just the opposite of diluting with water. It's that simple. You're going to the same amount of methanol (negligible) if you drink the same amount of alcohol, whether it's 1, 12oz bottle at 40%abv; or 6, 12oz bottles at 6.75% (over the same amount of time of course). You're going to get the same amount of alcohol and methanol.
Thakog
Well-Known Member
Wow, surprised I had to get to page three to find someone mention an Eisbock. If you haven't tried them, they're worth finding- the one I had was 12%abv, and was very fruity and malty.
One of these days (when I have a real brewing setup) I'm going to try making an eisbock.
Similar threads
