Fortified Cyser??

[Brewkowski]

I'm about one month into a 5 gal batch of cyser, and I got to thinking about doing some kind of a fortified cyser with 1 or 2 gal of the batch. I haven't seen any recipes regarding a fortified cyser, is there a reason for that? Should I be concerned trying?
The current batch SG is around 1.001 so I think it's almost done, so I was thinking of separating the batch at racking, and adding something like 1 gal cider and 3 lbs of honey to the "experiment" batch (1 Gal of existing cider), wait for a day and add 1 bottle or so of brandy and then some brandy soaked oak chips later. I was looking at the Pearson Square, but I'm not sure in this instance if I'd be calculating it correctly. If I'm adding cider and honey ( 1.25 gal volume at 1.080 est.?)that's going to drop my ABV significantly, but how much? Would it cut it in half or so? Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

[biochemedic]

Will you be adding sulfate/metabisulfate to prevent refermentation with the new cider and honey? I'm unclear as to why you would wait a day to add the brandy. You will certainly alter your ABV (the largest contributer being the gallon of cider -- adding this to a gallon of cyser will roughly cut your ABV in half!) Why did you decide to add that much cider anyhow? I'm sure another quart of honey will by itself add plenty of backsweetening, especially for such a small batch! (you may in fact want to consider dropping that too, or it may be cloyingly sweet...) Finally, you are going to be adding the brandy which will be adding back alcohol...I think if you search online, you should be able to find calculators for mixing volumes of various ABV's...

 

[MedsenFey]

Uhhh, do you a goal in mind? What do you want for a final ABV, and sweetness. Based on that, you can decide the best way to get there. How have you made the current cyser (gravity, ABV, etc.)?

 

[Brewkowski]

Well, I was going to add everything and wait a day so it would ferment out a little bit, I'm not sure how much I'll be diluting the ABV by dumping the cider and honey into it and I didn't want to get all my ABV from the brandy and have it too overpowering. My end goal was to make kind of an apple port, but not too sweet with a little oak to it. ABV goal maybe 20% or so? Would it be better to go with 2 gal from original batch, 1gal cider added, and 3lbs honey or still too much?

 

[MedsenFey]

It sounds to me like you'll be better off keeping your bases cyser as high alcohol as possible so you don't have to use too much brandy.

What is the ABV of your current batch? How large of a volume do you want to end up with?

 

[Brewkowski]

Current ABV is aroun 14%, don't really care about final volume I was just wanting to experiment with 1-2 gals of extra cyser. I thought by adding cider to sweeten, and add volume, I could then add a little brandy and end up with 2-3 gals of fortified.

 

[mrgoodcheese]

Here is a good dilution calculator that you can use to figure how much cider you should put back in if you go that route:
http://homedistiller.org/dilute.htm

And here is a good fortification calculator that you can use to figure how much brandy to add to get to what you want:
http://vinoenology.com/calculators/fortification/


I enjoy experimenting with small batches also.

 

[Brewkowski]

Here is a good dilution calculator that you can use to figure how much cider you should put back in if you go that route:
http://homedistiller.org/dilute.htm

And here is a good fortification calculator that you can use to figure how much brandy to add to get to what you want:
http://vinoenology.com/calculators/fortification/


I enjoy experimenting with small batches also.

Thanks for the links. According to the first one, if I take 2 gal of existing and add 1 gal of water(or new cider) it will drop it from 14% to 9.3%, then according to the second link I need to add about 1.5 gal of brandy to get the ABV to 20%, or 1 gal for 17%. That seems like a lot of brandy, I wonder if I should shoot a little lower to reduce overpowering the apple flavors? Maybe I should shoot for a 3 gal final volume (1 gal original, 1 gal added cider, 1 gal brandy = 19.5%ABV). I wonder if that would seem sweet enough with that much brandy, maybe add more honey?

 

[jfkriege]

Two quick ideas for you.

First, you can freeze concentrate the apple cider. This will give you more sugar and apple flavor without some of the water. Adding too much water just seems like a bad idea.

Second, most of the time I have seen wineries add back spirits to make a port type wine, they are nothing like the brandy that you and I can purchase. They get the wine distilled up into the 90% range, and it is essentially ethanol. I think this would be better represented by something like a grain alcohol or everclear. If you want it even more neutral, get some distillers stone carbon. Put the carbon in the everclear (2 tablespoons-ish) and shake it twice a day for a week. Filter it with a coffee filter.

 

[MedsenFey]

Why not take 1 gallon of your 14% cyser, and fortify it to 19%. If you use something 80 proof, that will take about 1 quart. That way the brandy won't total overpower the cyser. At that point, you can sweeten it with a little more honey to suit your taste (or apple juice concentrate if you like). You won't need sorbate if you do this as the alcohol will arrest fermentation.

However you choose to do it, you're going to need to age it a long time if you want it to taste smooth and mellow. Using high-proof spirits creates a very strong alcohol taste that takes years to integrate into the flavor. It will taste like somebody spiked the cyser until it has had enough time to meld - probably 2-3 years (could be more in some cases). Just be prepared.

Medsen

 

[mrgoodcheese]

Thanks for the links. According to the first one, if I take 2 gal of existing and add 1 gal of water(or new cider) it will drop it from 14% to 9.3%, then according to the second link I need to add about 1.5 gal of brandy to get the ABV to 20%, or 1 gal for 17%. That seems like a lot of brandy, I wonder if I should shoot a little lower to reduce overpowering the apple flavors? Maybe I should shoot for a 3 gal final volume (1 gal original, 1 gal added cider, 1 gal brandy = 19.5%ABV). I wonder if that would seem sweet enough with that much brandy, maybe add more honey?

Based on past experiences I wouldn't add too much cider or brandy, given you're working with a cyser. Too much cider will, as you put it, overpower with apple flavor. Too much brandy will mask the apple and honey flavors and make it taste strange (I wouldn't go much above 15%). Given you will start with 2 gallons, I can't come up with a combination that will get you to 3 gallons without having to add too much of both. My suggestion would get you to about 2.5 gallons total, so after mixing it all up you'd have to split it to 2 one gallons and a 1/2 gallon, or add marbles or such to it in a 3 gallon carboy to get it up to the neck.
My suggestion:
Warm up 3 cups of cider and 1 cup of honey so it blends together well. Add this mix (which equals 1 quart) to your cyser and stir it in well. Using the dilution calculator you'll see your 14% cyser is then 12.5%. If you then add 1 quart of 40% alc brandy and stir that in well, using the fortification calculator you'll see your final alcohol is at 15.25% with a volume of 2.5 gallons. And of course that would leave room for you to backsweeten with more honey if need be, or add more brandy.
I've used Everclear to fortify and I've used Paul Masson brandy to fortify. To my taste and those of my friends, the brandy is better overall... makes it smooth.

 

[Brewkowski]

Maybe I should try to get more out of the yeast when it comes time to rack, I think I used a yeast that is good up to 16% or so. Fermentation is done from what I can tell, but maybe if I give it some nutrient and rack it on to some more cider/honey I can get another 2 % out of it. Not sure if that would be worth the process of waiting and racking again.

 

[Brewkowski]

Well, i was only left with about 1 gal of leftover from the batch so I separated that and capped it, and mixed 1.5 cups (looked about like 1lb or so out of the jar) with 3.5 cups of brandy (40%abv). I've got 1 oz of oak chips that I soaked in brandy for a few days that I'll add tonight or so. SG of original batch is still around 1.001, so hopefully the honey won't make it too sweet, and I think ABV should be around 18%?

 

[mrgoodcheese]

You should be close on the #s you want. However, adding 3.5 cups of brandy to 1 gallon I think is going to give it a very strong brandy flavor. Let us know how it tastes after it sits for a while. I always like to learn the results of experimenting.

 

[Brewkowski]

I'll let you know for sure, tasting the original batch it was almost too spicy(too much clove), but honestly eventhough it's only 2 months old or so it was really smooth and had a good taste, almostl like a Golden Delicious apple with some spice, color was bronze/gold and crystal clear. I thought the brandy seemed like a lot, hopfully not overpowering, maybe I'll add a cup or two of apple juice.