Food Grade CO2 vs. Industrial CO2

[Brewmegoodbeer]

Hello all,

I force carbonate my beer. Today, I went to Dick's sporting goods to fill my CO2 tank and I happened to tell the person filling it that I was making beer. The employee then told me that he could not fill my tank because I was filling it for beverage purposes and the co2 was not food grade. This threw me in a loop because I know that many home brewers get their co2 from paintball stores, welders, and diving shops which do not have "food grade" co2. I am now looking for food grade co2 in my area but it looks like the only places that offer it are places that dispense co2 to businesses (hopefully they will sell to a dude making beer at his house). What do you guys think about this? I have read that industrial co2 can contain some chemicals that could be harmful and even cause cancer, so I now know that food grade co2 is prob. best, but do you guys use food grade?

 

[Bensiff]

I know a couple of guys who are managers at one of the local gas suppliers around here and they were saying they just had to suffer a long drawn out conference call about how the FDA is cracking down on the industry. Not for our consumption safety mind you, but because terrorists might go after our food supply. I then got told all about how asininely impossible that is; but, nevertheless, sounds like word is getting out. So, just don't tell them what it is getting filled for next time and take your chances that terrorists might have done the impossible and poisoned your CO2.

 

[day_trippr]

Why would a dive shop sell CO2?

 

[brewbama]

"hydrocarbons like benzene are more likely to appear in the water in your process then in the gas you are using." http://www.co2meter.com/blogs/news/16831989-why-the-grade-of-co2-gas-you-are-using-is-important
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1471657504.516187.jpg

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

Im not sure. Haha i heard they sell both oxygen and co2 tanks. Not sure what the carbon dioxide is for.

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

I was really mad at the guy. Before he told me this, I assumed that co2 is co2. I then did my own research and found out there was different grades. Its just amazing how small of a difference of a percentile there is between the grades. I have read that it does not take much of the impurities to make someone pretty sick and even a possibility of getting cancer. I think i am going to go through and get beverage grade somewhere to keep me possibly safe and those who drink my beer as well. Im really sad bc i just made an ipa that I finished today and all I had to do was force carb it. Now im sitting around with flat beer . This is all a learning process (and an expensive hobby). I was using a small 20 oz tank. im going to have to buy a tank that i can swap out with a major supplier that I know of that swaps 5 gallon beverage quality gas tanks. More dollars, better beer I guess.

 

[day_trippr]

Occasionally I run into a problem that is best solved with a little more cash.
I get my CO2 through my LHBS on an exchange program - I can walk in with a kicked tank and walk out with a filled one.
Worst case I'll chat with one of the store personnel while he refills my cylinder, but that's usually just the beer gas refills -
they typically have plenty of filled CO2 tanks at the ready - and they love me anyway, so it's all good

It costs about 20% more than tank swaps at the AirGas center 20 minutes in the opposite direction. I'm ok with it...

Cheers!

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

What is lhbs?

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

Local home brew shop. Got it!

 

[hezagenius]

Check your local homebrew store. They may have kegs you can "rent". You pay a deposit of ~$50 plus the cost of the gas. When that runs out, you bring it back and get a replacement and just pay the gas amount. My store does this and keeps probably 4-5 filled tanks on hand at all times.

 

[SGTSparty]

Mine LHBS does actual refills. They sell the tanks as a seperate item and once you buy one you can get it filled and you get the same one back. I have unique scuffs on mine and they're always there when I get it back. Charge $2.50 a pound IIRC. That's the easiest route IMO assuming you live close to your LHBS. Mine's 5 min down the road from my office so I hit it at lunch about 3 times a month for various things. OP where are you located and how close is your local?

 

[divrguy]

Im not sure. Haha i heard they sell both oxygen and co2 tanks. Not sure what the carbon dioxide is for.

Some dive shops also sell paint ball supplies. So, they sell C02

 

[YeastMode]

Some dive shops also sell paint ball supplies. So, they sell C02

Some dive shops also have an affiliated or connected hydrostatic testing/certification business, and those businesses test, certify and fill fire extinguishers, and thus fill CO2 for that main purpose. Paintball tanks and beer uses and the like are typically just a tertiary benefit.

 

[augiedoggy]

a major gas supplier is one of my customers and I asked them about it. They told me for them it starts out as the same gas at the manufacturing process but then the handling and storage of the two gases is different. They also pointed out that back contamination is common and finding oils, moisture and rust in the industrial gas tanks is very common. They strongly recommended I not use welding gas for beverage use. I would assume that the gas and filling station for paint gun and fire extinguisers might have similiar drawbacks but dont know for sure.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I've been getting my aluminum Co2 tanks filled and refilled at welding gas shops for over 5 years now, I stopped counting how many batches of beer that I've served during that time. What I have learned to avoid is using Co2 that has any type of oils in it, like what is used for paintball guns for instance.

Come to think of it I have also been getting my O2 tanks, for oxygenating wort prior to pitching yeast, from Home Depot in those little red tanks used for welding. I'm not so sure there is anything to worry about or the homebrewing community would have long since abandoned using these 'types' of gases.

 

[augiedoggy]

I've been getting my aluminum Co2 tanks filled and refilled at welding gas shops for over 5 years now, I stopped counting how many batches of beer that I've served during that time. What I have learned to avoid is using Co2 that has any type of oils in it, like what is used for paintball guns for instance.

Come to think of it I have also been getting my O2 tanks, for oxygenating wort prior to pitching yeast, from Home Depot in those little red tanks used for welding. I'm not so sure there is anything to worry about or the homebrewing community would have long since abandoned using these 'types' of gases.

Well the argument against this logic is you wouldnt necessarily know if it was anything in the gas if you had off flavors or got sick from it either... people used lead water pipes for a long time too "without noticing any issues" but it doesnt mean there potentially isnt any or the probability for problems isnt higher with it... Some companies have cleaner systems and better transport and containment systems for it than others so it may or may not be ok in reality BUT and its a big BUT the bottom line is since its not sold or meant for human consumption they dont have to make an effort to make or keep it safe for such use either so its a gamble and if someone got sick from it they would only have themselves to blame. If your exchanging your tank your taking an even greater risk since they normally dont clean them out in any way before filling. The little red one time use dsposable tanks at home depot are for oxygen last time I checked but if they have co2 tanks there they would be new not refilled and chances are greater that they would be ok.

How much are you really saving here? where I get my gas the price difference is negligible. I got to laugh because you didnt mind spending hundreds extra for a lifetime warranty on your electric brewing control panel but you decide to be cheap with industrial co2 here?

 

[YeastMode]

There is another debate going on here on the same topic: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=590418

For many, I don't think it is a matter of price, but one of availability. I live in Miami, a major city, and finding a place that will fill 5# tanks with food grade CO2 is tough. I have found only one (VS Carbonics).

For many people, the best that you will be able to do is find a place that sells a lot of CO2 and use your own aluminum tank. That will reduce the rust/containment factor as much as reasonably possible, short of ordering a deliverable amount of food grade CO2 that would last you 10+ years (with every month you paying the tank rental fee).

 

[cegan09]

There is almost zero difference in the gas.

The largest difference between grades is the bottle itself. Food grade bottles have a glass liner inside them so the gas does not touch the bottle. Normal bottles that you get everywhere for welding, beer, whatever, do not have this liner. Relax and don't stress out over CO2, you don't need to seek out food grade.

 

[Carlscan26]

For my O2 red tanks from HD, I still use the 1 micron air filter that came with my fish tank air pump setup that I used before switching to pure O2. May not be needed but just in case...

I wonder if those can be used safely with CO2 at the pressures we serve at?

 

[augiedoggy]

There is almost zero difference in the gas.

The largest difference between grades is the bottle itself. Food grade bottles have a glass liner inside them so the gas does not touch the bottle. Normal bottles that you get everywhere for welding, beer, whatever, do not have this liner. Relax and don't stress out over CO2, you don't need to seek out food grade.

It's my understanding that bars use food grade gas for beer. That's kinda the point of food grade as I understand

 

[YeastMode]

It's my understanding that bars use food grade gas for beer. That's kinda the point of food grade as I understand

They probably do, generally speaking. They usually get it delivered from a tank (either truck or stand alone) that is food grade "certified". When you are filling fountain drinks all day, you go through gas. They usually look like the picture attached. Our tanks dont look like that. Our tanks look like welding tanks and come in steel (heavy and rust, but very strong) and aluminum (lighter and don't "rust" [but oxidize], but not as robust).

You can absolutely get this gas directly from a supplier. But the smallest commercial (stainless or lined) tank I recall seeing is in the order of like 300#. And there is no guarantee that you will convince someone to deliver that amount to you. And then you have to fill your tanks off of that tank, which is an issue in and of itself. I would guess that you would me more likely to drop a tank while filling it and get seriously hurt than to end up with contaminated gas from a reputable welding supply store.

As a side note, many welding supply shops in my area fill from very big (like forklift big) stainless tanks just like the restaurants use. Also, I have seen a person in chef's clothing getting his coke tanks filled at the same welding supply store that I used to fill my tanks at. Does not make it right, but there you go.

 

[augiedoggy]

They probably do, generally speaking. They usually get it delivered from a tank (either truck or stand alone) that is food grade "certified". When you are filling fountain drinks all day, you go through gas. They usually look like the picture attached. Our tanks dont look like that. Our tanks look like welding tanks and come in steel (heavy and rust, but very strong) and aluminum (lighter and don't "rust" [but oxidize], but not as robust).

You can absolutely get this gas directly from a supplier. But the smallest commercial (stainless or lined) tank I recall seeing is in the order of like 300#. And there is no guarantee that you will convince someone to deliver that amount to you. And then you have to fill your tanks off of that tank, which is an issue in and of itself. I would guess that you would me more likely to drop a tank while filling it and get seriously hurt than to end up with contaminated gas from a reputable welding supply store.

As a side note, many welding supply shops in my area fill from very big (like forklift big) stainless tanks just like the restaurants use. Also, I have seen a person in chef's clothing getting his coke tanks filled at the same welding supply store that I used to fill my tanks at. Does not make it right, but there you go.

Well I worked as a maintenance man in a large restaurant with 2 bars and we had a service deliver tanks not the one above but regular steel tanks..(although I do believe coke supplied a stainless one like above for the soda systems) we also had blue nitrogen tanks for the wine fountains. another local gas supplier which I use to fill my tanks doers both welding gas and food grade gas at the same counter they ask me what its for before they fill them if I remember correctly although its been about 6 months.. I do remember them telling me about their exchange program to exchange my tank but they recommended against it if I was using it for beer. my understanding (which now im questioning) is these places had different ways of storing and dispensing the welding gas vs the food grade gas onsite but Now I guess I will have to ask more questions when I go back. I know one welding supply gas place near me refused to fill my tank telling me they no longer do the food grade gas fills for beer which led me to ask my customer about it in the first place.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Ok I just had to know more about the quality of the Co2 gas that I have been getting from the PraxAir gas supply up the street. After downloading and reading through their Safety Data Sheet for the Co2 gas that I get from them this is what I found.

SECTION 3: Composition/Information on ingredients

3.1. Substance​

Name: Carbon dioxide​

Product identifier: (CAS No) 124-38-9​

Percentage: 99.5 - 100%​

Since this is the only Co2 gas that PraxAir sells I am confident that it is 99.5% to 100% pure Co2 and that it is perfectly suitable for my beer.

 

[UndeadFred]

I saw this thread from the "Dick's" thread. I'll quickly add that the fire extinguisher company I use (and who are pretty awesome overall) clearly states in their advertising that their secondary business is restaurant supply. So I asked about the food grade. Yep, even the stuff they fill the extinguishers with, because it's not worth it for them to keep two grades. So, you might want to tell them what it is for and ask if they are in that business also. Not really so with the other supplier locally, a welding supply shop who is actually more expensive.

A few phone calls and you will find the right stuff. CO2 tanks for soda machines are really common and all that I called would sell to individuals for cash. I imagine it's like that in most places. 5# tanks are pretty common and 20# are. I was told I was lucky that they had a newly refurbished/re-certified 10# when I got mine... so maybe those, not as much.

 

[Chirobrewer]

I just called General Air Services in Fort Collins, CO. I asked them if I should be getting a 'food-grade' CO2 and he said that is not really how it works, considering all the companies they supply use the exact same CO2. For example, he said they supply all of the Jax Sporting Goods stores AND all of the McDonald's in northern CO with their CO2 and it's the exact same grade. He said it's easier to have the same grade go to all of the stores rather than have better grades for beverage serving and lesser grades for paintball fills, so they just make all of their CO2 up to standards for the beverage industry; this means they can send the same CO2 everywhere, which for them, is apparently less of a hassle/logistical issue.

So I guess what I am saying is it really depends on where YOUR local stores get their CO2 from to make the call whether or not it's safe for you to brew beer with it; for me, it looks like I'll be filling my tanks at Jax on the cheap

 

[jmark]

From what I understand a good regulator will have an inline filter as well - I believe Taprite include filters in their regulator housings.

 

[thunderwagn]

I just called General Air Services in Fort Collins, CO. I asked them if I should be getting a 'food-grade' CO2 and he said that is not really how it works, considering all the companies they supply use the exact same CO2. For example, he said they supply all of the Jax Sporting Goods stores AND all of the McDonald's in northern CO with their CO2 and it's the exact same grade. He said it's easier to have the same grade go to all of the stores rather than have better grades for beverage serving and lesser grades for paintball fills, so they just make all of their CO2 up to standards for the beverage industry; this means they can send the same CO2 everywhere, which for them, is apparently less of a hassle/logistical issue.

So I guess what I am saying is it really depends on where YOUR local stores get their CO2 from to make the call whether or not it's safe for you to brew beer with it; for me, it looks like I'll be filling my tanks at Jax on the cheap

Got my tank filled yesterday at the Loveland Jax. 5# tank was $8.52 out the door. Airgas wants close to $19. My receipt states kegerator co2 refill.

 

[melvinator]

The location of the sourced CO2 is the same. The way that CO2 is handled and stored is different.
https://youtu.be/yWJaA27QOkE

 

[doug293cz]

The location of the sourced CO2 is the same. The way that CO2 is handled and stored is different.
https://youtu.be/yWJaA27QOkE

That video provides NO information on how storage and handling are different. Not very informative.

Brew on

 

[co2James]

I've buying co2 for many years, first from air liquide than airgas. All the employees who refill my tank tell me its all co2, pure co2... they sell gas for all the restaurants, coca cola bottler and welding shops in the area. They only have 1 co2 tank. They tell me is all comes from the same place! But what about medical and food grade co2? Only the receipt and paperwork is different, but its all the same co2 from the same tank, we filled them all. But medical grade and we'll printout a certificate that its been tested and certified and you'll pay more for the same refill!!! That's all the info I could get out of the employees filling my co2 tank from Airgas.

 

[bleme]

The owner of the welding supply shop that I use is a homebrewer and uses the same gas/tanks.

 

[Transamguy77]

The airgas I go to only sells good grade co2, and every tank has a sticker with numbers on it to track it. I don't remember anything like that when I lived I Pa so maybe location dictates? I've also been told it's all food grade so it's all the same.

 

[Diver_Alan]

For my O2 red tanks from HD, I still use the 1 micron air filter that came with my fish tank air pump setup that I used before switching to pure O2. May not be needed but just in case...

I wonder if those can be used safely with CO2 at the pressures we serve at?

Keep in mind the obvious. Oxygen and CO2 are not the same gas.

Oxygen cones in several grades ( aviation, medical, and industrial ). Oxygen is Oxygen it is all the same, the difference is in the testing and record keeping (and price). For example aviation grade is tested for moisture while oxygen used for welding comes straight from the tank without any additional testing.

One of the differences between O2 and CO2 is that an O2 cylinder can only be filled if it is O2 clean. The presence of any hydrocarbons in a O2 tank would likely result in a flash fire and possibility an explosion. For homebrew use any oxygen will do. On the other hand CO2 can be filled into any cylinder without regard to how clean it is. The only requirement is the the cylinder be hydrostatic tested every 5 years. Testing does not clean the cylinder unless rust is present in steel tanks. If it is the rust may be removed from the cylinder. When you do a CO2 exchange unless you request food grade you don't know what was present in the cylinder before it was refilled. The gas may all be the same but anything in the cylinder before it was filled may end up in your beer.