First time using dry yeast for beer

[HB2112]

OK so my friend has been bragging about using dry yeast for his brew and how easy they are to use. So I decided to try some. I used a Lallemand Premium series English style ale yeast. It started chugging away within an hour or 2 with a pretty good cap on it. The next morning it was really going good, but the temp went from 72 to 79. I got kind of nervous and placed some small blue ice packs up against the sides. Went to check on it a few hours later and it had reduced down to around 75 so I removed the ice packs. At this time the cap had gotten smaller and it wasn't bubbling as much. I went out to check this morning and not bubbling at all and there's a separation of sorts going on. My question is would this be normal behavior for this yeast? It almost seems like it's done and it hasn't even been 24 hours. I have nothing against a quick fermentation but this seems a little too quick.

 

[hotbeer]

Sound's normal for any fermentation regardless of whether it's liquid or dry yeast.

Most of your fermentation can be over and done in 2 or 3 days and it takes a week or more to get that last 0.001 or .002 of SG lower out of your beer.

 

[HB2112]

Thank you. I've been using liquid yeast and had an issue on my last batch. The liquid yeast I bought had expired already. It took a while to get going and after 7 days I cracked open the fermenter and just about puked from the smell. I had my first bad batch and learned an important lesson, check the date on the yeast before you buy it. I went by that store last week and they still have this yeast in stock and now it's really outdated. But most of the liquid yeast I've used in the past took a good 24 hours to get going and then slowly increased in fermentation, and then slowly decreased in fermentation, typically over a 3 day period. I've made fruit wines before with dry champagne yeast and it was really fast acting. I just didn't expect a dry beer yeast to be so aggressive, and I was concerned that the temp went from 72-79 so fast.

 

[lablover]

I've been using nothing but dry Nottingham and 34/70 for my two house beers for a few years. I make a Pale with the Notty and a simple lager with the 34/70. Both are extremely clean and I've received many compliments on them. Notty will go very fast if I let it get as hot as you let yours. You may have some off flavors letting it get that hot. I do my Ale fermentation at 65 to 68 F and my lager at 60 to 62 F. Don't blame the yeast if you don't like the flavors in your beer, blame the temperature control.

 

[HB2112]

How are you controlling your temperature? I could only get the wort chiller to get it to 70 before pitching yeast. Within a few hours it was at 72. I'm having a shop built soon, and one of the things I'm having done is a beer cellar type of area under the stairs that should stay cool since it will be against the wall that is underground.

 

[Velnerj]

How are you controlling your temperature? I could only get the wort chiller to get it to 70 before pitching yeast. Within a few hours it was at 72. I'm having a shop built soon, and one of the things I'm having done is a beer cellar type of area under the stairs that should stay cool since it will be against the wall that is underground.

Most homebrewers have a mini fridge (that fits their fermenter) that they have converted to a temperature controlled fermentation chamber. They bypass the fridges thermostat by using a temperature controller (usually inkbird for around $30 on Amazon - it's plug and play, very simple). You need to put the temperature probe in or on the beer not the ambient area around the beer. As you know, fermentation creates heat as the temp rises the fridge kicks on to cool it down. You can set the temp to anywhere you'd like and set a differential so that both your beer doesn't get too hot and so you don't overrun your fridge.

With a used fridge found somewhere you can have this set up for $100-$200 (or less).

 

[ncbrewer]

A swamp cooler can help with temperature control if you want to keep the cost down. A large plastic tub, filled with water up to just below the level of the fermometer, with ice jugs added as needed to keep it cool. Some also put a towel or T-shirt over the fermenter, hanging down into the water to wick water up - this gives some evaporative cooling (a true swamp cooler). If using a towel, cut a hole in the middle fir the airlock. I don't use the towel because it seemed messy, and got smelly. By the way, the water can get smelly from algae - a splash of bleach every few days prevents this.

 

[wsmith1625]

Thank you. I've been using liquid yeast and had an issue on my last batch. The liquid yeast I bought had expired already. It took a while to get going and after 7 days I cracked open the fermenter and just about puked from the smell.

There is nothing wrong with using liquid yeast and a lot of brewers prefer it to dry yeast. If you're not making starters with liquid yeast, you're missing out on their full potential to make great beer. Typical cell count on a liquid yeast pack is too low for 5 gallon batches and will cause lag time as the yeast multiply. A starter will boost the cell count so you pitch the proper amount of yeast cells for your batch of beer. Use a pitch rate calculator to determine the size of the starter you'll need. At a minimum, a starter will confirm viability before brew day so you're not pitching dead yeast and likely ruining your beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

What @wsmith1625 said! ^

The liquid yeast I bought had expired already.

I went by that store last week and they still have this yeast in stock and now it's really outdated.

But most of the liquid yeast I've used in the past took a good 24 hours to get going

Liquid yeast starts to slowly die from the date it's packaged. But the way it's handled from the yeast lab to the distributor to the store to you determines her health even more.

Aside from her age, determined by the manufacturing date, which is typically 6 months before the "Best By Date" stamp on the package, it could have been stored warm or traveled in hot weather, or other circumstances, all making things worse.

Therefore, you should always make starters from liquid yeast, well ahead of brewing day, to:

• Prove viability
• Increase cell count
• Overbuild by 50-100 billion cells to store away in the fridge; then make a new (large) starter from that for a next batch, etc.

Making yeast starters is really not that difficult or even takes that long, but it does need some planning ahead, and does take some effort. Although the selection in dry yeast and the quality has increased much the past 10-15 years, especially the past 5 years, there is so much more variety in liquid yeast out there than ever before too.

BTW, you should complain to your brew shop about the old yeast and your failed batch. If you're willing to make starters, maybe he'll give you the outdated yeast for free or a buck a pack (@maximum).

 

[mashpaddled]

With a hot fermentation and an appropriate pitch rate, it is not out of the question that the yeast are winding down after one day. Checking gravity would be the only way to know for sure.

I don't want to pile on but your fermentation temperatures are too high. The internal temperature of the beer is usually 3-5 degrees above those stick on strips. If it read 79F, the beer inside was almost certainly in the 80s.

 

[HB2112]

Thank you all for your input. Looks like I'll be making starters. I'm going to bottle tonight. The wort smells fine and I'll let you know what the FG turns out to be.

 

[HB2112]

Mashpaddled I think you're right. Started at 1.042 finished at 1.030. This normally finishes at 1.010 and flavor is a little off. Oh well lesson learned. Thank you guys for all of your help

 

[IslandLizard]

Started at 1.042 finished at 1.030.

Did you measure that 1.030 gravity with a hydrometer or refractometer?

 

[HB2112]

A hydrometer

 

[IslandLizard]

A hydrometer

Coming down from an OG of 1.042, 1.030 sounds way too high for it to be done.

You added the dry yeast on Sunday, Oct 9?
I'd leave it at 70-72F for at least another week, then take another gravity reading.

If you bottle before it's totally done fermenting there's a decent chance you're creating bottle bombs.

Can you post your recipe and any process descriptions that may have caused it to be less fermentable? As you said yourself, 1.010 sounds much more in line.

 

[Protos]

This English yeast (Lalbrew London) is a nice sturdy warm-loving yeast, reaching 78F won't bring any problems with it.

There's another caveat: sometimes it might take ages for it to chew through the last gravity point, I've had problems with it continuing or resuming slow fermentation in the bottle if bottled too early, so I'd suggest to give it full 3 weeks in primary despite the apparent inactivity and fast flocculation.

 

[IslandLizard]

From Lallemand: London - English-Style Ale Yeast (PDF):

ATTENUATION
medium

FERMENTATION RANGE
18 - 22°C (65 - 72°F)

FLOCCULATION
low

ALCOHOL TOLERANCE
12% ABV

1.042 OG => 1.030 FG = 29% (apparent) attenuation (so far).
Unless there are gross measuring errors in gravities, it's either highly unfermentable wort, unhealthy or not very viable yeast, severe underpitching, or simply, it's not done fermenting. Give it more time, and keep it at a constant 70-72F (or a bit higher) without (large) temp drops.

Here are typical percentages correlated with yeast attenuation classes (source: John Palmer, How to Brew, 1st Ed.):
65-70% = Low
71-75% = Medium
76-80% = High

 

[HB2112]

Thanks guys. I had already set up to bottle when I checked the gravity. I didn't like the taste it was definitely off. Was tired and had to be up early the next day to go fishing so I chucked it. I'll make a starter with liquid yeast later this week and try again. The way it ramped up and then just stopped didn't seem right to me. I'll also be making a temp controlled chamber for my carboy.

 

[IslandLizard]

I didn't like the taste it was definitely off. [...] I chucked it.

That's sad news to hear, second batch in a row.
Can you post your recipe and some (important) process details? Maybe we can help finding the problem.

 

[HB2112]

Here you go IslandLizard and thanks for the help. I appreciate it
The recipe is as follows 4.32 lbs. of pilsner light DME, 12 oz. honey malt, 12 oz. wheat malt,, 1 oz. Willamette hops at 60 min and at 0 min, as for yeast the recipe calls for White labs WLP002 or Wyeast 1968. I can never find WLP002 so I've used WLP005 and Imperial A01 with great success. The batch before this one was with WLP005, but it was over a month past the expiration date. A friend of mine suggested trying a dry yeast and from what I found the Lallamand I used this time had a similar profile to the Wyeast 1968.
Directions
Steep grains in 150 degree water for 30 min, remove grain and rinse grain with 1 gallon of hot water. Then add water to bring up to 5.5 gallons and bring to a boil. Add DME and 1 oz hops continue boil for 60 min. At 50 min put wort chiller in boil. Once boil is complete add 1 oz hops. Chill to 70 degrees, sometimes I can only get to 72 depending on outside temp, this effects the water coming out of the hose more than I thought. Transfer to fermentation vessel, 7 gallon fermonster, add yeast at this time and aerate, put on airlock and put in closet under stairs, coolest area I have to put fermenter. This last time since I used dry yeast I rehydrated before pitching. One other thing I did different this time was I only added water to 4 gallons before I brought to a boil and mixed DME with water first before adding at boil. Oh I also add yeast to fermonster before I add the wort to make sure it's mixed well.

I'm pretty sure that the expired yeast is what hurt me on the last batch because when I cracked the lid open after fermentation it smelled absolutely awful, and like a ******* I tasted it to make sure. Well it was awful tasting too. This time the smell was fine but the taste was definitely off. So I'm sure the yeast got too hot because it literally stopped bubbling in a few hours after I saw the high temp. it didn't just slow down. I've made 3 successful batches like this and they were great. Two with WLP005 and one with Imperial A01.

On another note the salmon fishing was epic yesterday. Been a long time since I had a day like that.

Thank you

 

[IslandLizard]

On another note the salmon fishing was epic yesterday. Been a long time since I had a day like that.

Good to hear you had at least something good and enjoyable going for ya!

[...] Then add water to bring up to 5.5 gallons and bring to a boil. Add DME and 1 oz hops continue boil for 60 min.[...]

When extract brewing there is little need to do full volume boils.
Very few extract beers may be better brewed doing full volume boils, such as (super) hoppy, high IBU IPAs. But the majority, such as your beer, is best off using a partial volume boil:

1. Typically you can boil a volume as little as 2-2.5 gallons, using no more than half the extract (better to use even less).
2. Add your hops at their regular schedule.
3. At the end of the boil you turn the heat off, add the remainder of the extract, stir until dissolved. Make sure the resulting wort is kept at least at 160F for a total of 10-15 minutes to pasteurize it.
4. Then chill as quickly and as far down as you can. Transfer to your fermenter, and top up with cold water* to your batch/recipe's intended volume.
5. Since topped up wort/beer tends to stratify, mix thoroughly before taking a gravity sample and pitching yeast.

* You want to aim the temp of your cold top-up water so the final wort is cool enough to aerate/oxygenate and pitch the yeast.

 

[IslandLizard]

Let's do some more extensive troubleshooting.
What kind of water are you using for your brewing? That could be an issue.

How did you make your yeast starter from the dry yeast?

The weird smell and taste can be just from fermentation, but if it's totally putrid, your wort/beer may be infected, spoiling your beer. There could be visible tell tales of infections too, but not always or clearly.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

a side note on yeast strain selection

A friend of mine suggested trying a dry yeast and from what I found the Lallamand I used this time had a similar profile to the Wyeast 1968.

If it's London (or Windsor) ...

LalBrew London™ is a true English ale strain selected for its ability to produce authentic, traditional UK beer styles. Fermentation performance is fast and consistent producing moderate esters and lower attenuation due to an inability to metabolize maltotriose.

... and ...

LalBrew London™ does not utilize the sugar maltotriose (a molecule composed of 3 glucose units).

Maltotriose is present in wort in an average 10-15% of all malt worts. The result will be fuller body and residual sweetness in beer. Be advised to adjust gravities and mash temperatures according to desired result.

... which is why I don't use these strains with my DME based recipes.

 

[HB2112]

BrewnWKopper it's London not Windsor. Islandlizard I use filtered water. I've got a really good filter system under the sink with a dispenser next to the tap. It's not a reverse osmosis filter.

 

[Dancy]

I don’t have the space for a separate fridge/fermentation center so I use this insulating jacket (from MoreBeer maybe?) with frozen water in 64oz juice bottles, using 2 - 4 of them at a. time. My Speidel fermenters have just a stick-on thermometer strip so I factor a few degrees higher for the center of the wort.

 

[HB2112]

Thanks Dancy

 

[HB2112]

Alright I looked on FB market place yesterday and found an old fridge set up for a kegarator. I'll set it up as a temp controlled fermentation chamber for now and maybe use as a kegarator if I start kegging my brew. It works fine, and has some great stickers on it

 

[Bobby_M]

If you were to use that yeast again, you might want to integrate a bit of simple sugars, otherwise Nottingham would be a better choice for an all extract brew.

 

[dmtaylor]

Lallemand London yeast is a relatively low attenuator and will leave a higher FG than nearly all other yeasts. It starts off fast and will seem to be finished within 40 hours, but will take more time to eat more sugars later on. You would be wise to leave it alone for at least another week to ensure it is done fermenting before packaging. Check gravity in another week, it will be several points lower. Don't package until successive gravity readings taken about 4 days apart remain stable.

 

[redrocker652002]

I cannot add much other than to say I learned that patience is needed. I had a Pale ale that seemed stuck at about 1.025 or so for a few days. I left it be, at the advice of many both here and another forum I am part of, and after a few more days it got down to 1.018. Not the best number, but low enough. I kegged it, and let it set and carb. My brother, who is a pale ale guy, said it was one of the better I had done. So, in retrospect, I learned that being patient and letting it do it's thing is for sure the way to go.

Also, I have used dry yeast almost exclusively, and I like it. I will be doing a blonde ale (805 similar) and will be using liquid, so I am going to try my hand at a starter. Point being, both can be very good if done correctly. Brew on, and enjoy the process, that's why it is a hobby. RR

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Curiosity question:

with all-grain brewing, when 'mashing low' to obtain a more fermentable wort, are there generalized numbers for the relative amount of glucose, maltose, ... in the wort?​

Some brands/styles of DME include information like this:

If there were equivalent numbers for a 'typical' highly fermentable all-grain wort, it seems like one could determine the amount of sugar needed to adjust the DME to have a similar Maltotriose percentage.

 

[HB2112]

Thanks guys for all of your help with this I appreciate it. I made another batch using Wyeast 1968 this time. I also went the extra step and made a starter with it. The brew started at 1.046 and finished at 1.010 after 10 days. I bottled yesterday and it smelled good and tasted good. In 10-14 days I'll give it a try. Didn't use the temperature controlled environment the temp controller didn't show up in time. It went from summer to winter here in Oregon this year so I didn't need it. One thing I was reading up on is cold crashing for clarity. I'll try this on the next batch and then on to experiment with lagers.

 

[redrocker652002]

Thanks guys for all of your help with this I appreciate it. I made another batch using Wyeast 1968 this time. I also went the extra step and made a starter with it. The brew started at 1.046 and finished at 1.010 after 10 days. I bottled yesterday and it smelled good and tasted good. In 10-14 days I'll give it a try. Didn't use the temperature controlled environment the temp controller didn't show up in time. It went from summer to winter here in Oregon this year so I didn't need it. One thing I was reading up on is cold crashing for clarity. I'll try this on the next batch and then on to experiment with lagers.

I bought an InkBird temp controller. Plugged it in and plugged a small personal heater in it. My closet in the hallway has always been between 65 and 70 depending on what windows are open and what time of the year it is So far, with using dry yeast, it has worked out perfect.