First crack at making cider....

[Harleycodr]

I got some pasturized, preservative free unfiltered cider at Trader Joe's. Doing a small (1 gallon) batch to try...I took an initial gravity reading and got 1.050. I put in 1/5 of the yeast (champagne yeast) since the packet is for a 5 gallon batch. I had active fermentation within 24 hours and it's still bubbling along.

Question is - once it is finished fermenting, how do I sweeten it to make it drinkable? Also, like beer, does it have to sit in the bottles before being tasty? Does the carbonation occur naturally?

I've been brewing beer for 21 years so this is all new to me! Thanks in advance...

 

[DaMonkey]

I got some pasturized, preservative free unfiltered cider at Trader Joe's. Doing a small (1 gallon) batch to try...I took an initial gravity reading and got 1.050. I put in 1/5 of the yeast (champagne yeast) since the packet is for a 5 gallon batch. I had active fermentation within 24 hours and it's still bubbling along.

Question is - once it is finished fermenting, how do I sweeten it to make it drinkable? Also, like beer, does it have to sit in the bottles before being tasty? Does the carbonation occur naturally?

I've been brewing beer for 21 years so this is all new to me! Thanks in advance...

To sweeten you can add sulfites and sorbate then add sugar but then you can't carbonate.

You will want to rack it for at least 2 weeks and then you can drink it. But aging it does increase the flavor. You can age cider like wine.

You can carbonate by using priming sugar and letting it sit in the bottle till its been carbonated by the yeast. This method makes a completely dry product.

If you want to sweeten and carbonate there are a few methods none of them are really for your first cider batch. You can also use some random products like sweeteners that don't ferment or carb drops. But the most natural methods are by keg or over sugar and then pasteurize at a particular carbonation level, usually measured with a plastic bottle. This method is complicated and dangerous.

 

[Harleycodr]

So that doesn't really answer my question on how to sweeten it. Do I have to treat it like iced tea when ready to drink it by adding sweetener then? Seems strange....

 

[TeeJo]

You can do that(sweeten at time of use) and it works pretty well, and is simple.

I have used a spoon full of frozen apple juice concentrate to sweeten up a cyser I made, as well as a high test apple hooch that was really dry.
A splash of Sprite or 7up will work too.

But if you want simple, you gotta do simple things and live with it, otherwise you gotta deal with reading and understanding the Backsweeten and Pasteurize threads that abound here, if you want the apple flavored soda pop that seems to be most of the commercial varieties passed off as "Cider", which, in a general sense, do not resemble anything that you can produce by natural means.

TeeJo

 

[slym2none]

If you want to back-sweeten at time of service, try frozen apple juice concentrate.

Otherwise, to me, it seems you have to choose between back-sweetening or carbonation, because I don't like artificial sweeteners. You can carbonate and have a very dry cider (which doesn't bother me any) or you can use a Campden tablet to kill the yeast and then sweeten however you like.

As always, I make the disclaimer that I am a very green noob when it comes to brewing anything, so take my words with a grain of salt. I could very well be quite wrong here.

 

[Maylar]

I got some pasturized, preservative free unfiltered cider at Trader Joe's. Doing a small (1 gallon) batch to try...I took an initial gravity reading and got 1.050. I put in 1/5 of the yeast (champagne yeast) since the packet is for a 5 gallon batch. I had active fermentation within 24 hours and it's still bubbling along.

Question is - once it is finished fermenting, how do I sweeten it to make it drinkable? Also, like beer, does it have to sit in the bottles before being tasty? Does the carbonation occur naturally?

I've been brewing beer for 21 years so this is all new to me! Thanks in advance...

Cider normally finishes at or below 1.000 SG, especially with wine yeast. That will be dry like wine. You can rack to a secondary bottle and let it age for a while, which will also give it time to clear. I typically give mine 2 weeks in secondary. Any longer than that you'd need to rack into smaller containers and eliminate the headspace air - this is tough with a 1 gallon batch.

The safest way to sweeten and carbonate is to use a non fermentable sugar like Xylitol as the sweetener and normal priming sugar for carbonation. I like about 3 TBSP Xylitol for a 1 gallon batch. Or use frozen concentrate for the priming sugar, enough to bring up the SG by .005 is safe.

 

[mag00n]

So that doesn't really answer my question on how to sweeten it. Do I have to treat it like iced tea when ready to drink it by adding sweetener then? Seems strange....

The easiest way to have a sweet and carbonated cider is to kill the yeast, add your sweetener then keg it and force carb. The same principals apply to cider as they do to beer. If you add sugar post fermenation without killing the yeast, the yeast will ferment the sugar. If add sugar right at bottling, youll get bottle bombs.

If you kill the yeast then back sweeten and bottle, youll have still cider(which is perfectly acceptable but maybe not what youre looking for)

 

[bernardsmith]

You say you have been brewing for 21 years. Do you force carb your beers or simply prime bottles? If you force carbonate then you are in clover. You allow the cider to ferment dry and then you stabilize by adding K-meta and K-sorbate. These two together prevent the yeast from budding and from fermenting so any additional sugar will add to the sweetness. I would bench test to see how much sugar (or honey or maple syrup or ?? ) you want to add. Add the amount of sugar for the entire volume. Then you can treat the cider like beer and force carb. Realize of course, that cider has no protein and so the CO2 will behave like the bubbles in champagne or sparkling wine and will not result in a head.

 

[Harleycodr]

I've always just primed the bottles with priming sugar. I did a small batch this time around because it's my first time attempting a cider. Force carbonation - I am not familiar with that. Yes, 21 years of beer, but casually. I don't study it or anything (maybe I should!!) What is force carbonation? You've got my attention!!! I'm trying to get a "Redds" like cider but I understand Redds is basically a combo of beer and apple.

 

[bernardsmith]

Force carbonation is when you pump CO2 into the beer rather than add sugar to the beer to allow the yeast to ferment that added sugar and so produce CO2.

You can make a blend of cider and beer by simply adding wort to a batch of apple juice and ferment them in the same fermenter. Not sure I would do it the other way - using apple juice in place of water because you don't want to heat apple juice unless your idea was to make jelly or jam.

 

[brancaster]

I have a question that is slightly off-topic, but I see that you used 1/5th of the yeast.

I'm going to be brewing a few 1 gallon batches here in a bit, but I was under the impression that I can effectively use the whole packet (most are intended for 1-5 gallons, right?) without over pitching.

Is that correct?

 

[mag00n]

I have a question that is slightly off-topic, but I see that you used 1/5th of the yeast.

I'm going to be brewing a few 1 gallon batches here in a bit, but I was under the impression that I can effectively use the whole packet (most are intended for 1-5 gallons, right?) without over pitching.

Is that correct?

Pitching a whole sachet of dry yeast into a 1 gallon batch is an over pitch. Use a calculator like mrmalty to determine pitch rate.

 

[brancaster]

Pitching a whole sachet of dry yeast into a 1 gallon batch is an over pitch. Use a calculator like mrmalty to determine pitch rate.

Thanks for the advice on using the calculator!

Using that, with a SG of 1.050 and 1 gallon it recommends 2g, which is just under half a 5g pack.

 

[mag00n]

Thanks for the advice on using the calculator!

Using that, with a SG of 1.050 and 1 gallon it recommends 2g, which is just under half a 5g pack.

That sounds about right. If you dont have a scale, I prefer a slight over pitch over an under pitch. YMMV.

 

[Thanks_Yeasties]

Your getting at the basic dilemma that all homebrewers have when it comes to sweetening ciders.

You would like to sweeten with real sugars, but the yeast would like to consume it all.

So you can
1. drink it flat and sweet (add sugar, keep cold to prevent yeast from consuming any sugars)
2. drink it dry and carbonated (add enough to carbonate in bottles)
3. drink it sweetened and carbonated
a. add real sugars for carbonation to occur and sweeten with artificial for taste
b. add real sugars for carbonation to occur and sweeten as you open each individually to drink
c. add real sugars for carbonation and to sweeten, let yeast consume enough to carbonate then chill all remaining bottles to stop yeast from consuming the sugar portion added for taste
d. add real sugars for carbonation and to sweeten, let yeast carbonate, proceed carefully to pasteurizing bottles - theres a stickied thread on this that is worthy of a few hours of reading.


Personally I am against artificial sweetners and adding sorbate or other chemicals (designed to stop yeast from reproducing, not necessarily stop consuming sugars). So I have gone the way of 3c and 3d when I bottled.

Now I force carbonate by putting the sweetened cider in a keg and either keeping it chilled to stop the yeast or pasteurizing the entire keg, but it sounds like you are only set up for bottling.

 

[brancaster]

Your getting at the basic dilemma that all homebrewers have when it comes to sweetening ciders.

You would like to sweeten with real sugars, but the yeast would like to consume it all.

So you can
1. drink it flat and sweet (add sugar, keep cold to prevent yeast from consuming any sugars)
2. drink it dry and carbonated (add enough to carbonate in bottles)
3. drink it sweetened and carbonated
a. add real sugars for carbonation to occur and sweeten with artificial for taste
b. add real sugars for carbonation to occur and sweeten as you open each individually to drink
c. add real sugars for carbonation and to sweeten, let yeast consume enough to carbonate then chill all remaining bottles to stop yeast from consuming the sugar portion added for taste
d. add real sugars for carbonation and to sweeten, let yeast carbonate, proceed carefully to pasteurizing bottles - theres a stickied thread on this that is worthy of a few hours of reading.


Personally I am against artificial sweetners and adding sorbate or other chemicals (designed to stop yeast from reproducing, not necessarily stop consuming sugars). So I have gone the way of 3c and 3d when I bottled.

Now I force carbonate by putting the sweetened cider in a keg and either keeping it chilled to stop the yeast or pasteurizing the entire keg, but it sounds like you are only set up for bottling.

I'm sort of hijacking this thread here, but I'm going for option d. in my first cider brew. No one worry! I've read up quite a bit and can say that I'm confident in my ability to safely pasteurize without making bottle bombs.

That being said, there isn't a whole lot I can find that state how much sugar should be added to both allow proper carbonation and still be sweet enough by the time I pasteurize the bottles.

I'm doing 1 gallon batches in which I'll save 20% of the apple juice and add it in as my primer for carbonation and sweetening. Is that going to be enough, too much? Should I try other sugars?

Thanks!

 

[DaMonkey]

So that doesn't really answer my question on how to sweeten it. Do I have to treat it like iced tea when ready to drink it by adding sweetener then? Seems strange....

I explained your options. You did not make it clear if you wanted a carbonated, sweet or both product at the end. Its different depending on what you do.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I am new to both cider and beer as I started within the last few months with cider and have worked my way up to beer. I've been using cider as my yeast starters and just drinking the cider when it is still green.. i.e. not fully fermented and still a bit bubbly. My wife has been enjoying the "green" ciders as well. It ends up being pretty low abv, but a pint of it got my wife in a pretty chatty mood the other night.

 

[Thanks_Yeasties]

You can always use a priming calculator to figure the amount of sugar needed to get your desired carbonation level. I usually went with a middle of the road, 1oz corn sugar per 1 gallon cider. That should add about.003 gravity points.


Sweeten to your liking either by taste or by gravity readings, (semi sweet 1.008ish, sweet 1.012) with your choice of sugar/juice, then add your priming sugar on top of that.

These numbers are just rough from my notes and tastes, so always start dryer, sample then increase sweetness as desired.

 

[brancaster]

You can always use a priming calculator to figure the amount of sugar needed to get your desired carbonation level. I usually went with a middle of the road, 1oz corn sugar per 1 gallon cider. That should add about.003 gravity points.


Sweeten to your liking either by taste or by gravity readings, (semi sweet 1.008ish, sweet 1.012) with your choice of sugar/juice, then add your priming sugar on top of that.

These numbers are just rough from my notes and tastes, so always start dryer, sample then increase sweetness as desired.

Awesome thanks! I didn't even think to look for a priming calculator.

So my base apple juice is at a SG of 1.055, I'm aiming to ferment it down to about 1.005.

Once I do, I'll add enough sugar/juice to bring it up to say...1.008 for semi sweet, then add the recommended dose of priming sugar?

 

[Thanks_Yeasties]

Sounds right. I would even take a sample at 1.005 and see what you think, and yes the priming sugar will be added on top of that.

 

[Maylar]

Awesome thanks! I didn't even think to look for a priming calculator.

So my base apple juice is at a SG of 1.055, I'm aiming to ferment it down to about 1.005.

Once I do, I'll add enough sugar/juice to bring it up to say...1.008 for semi sweet, then add the recommended dose of priming sugar?

If you intend to pasteurize, you can add enough sugar or FAJC to bring it up to 1.010 and let that be both the sweetening and priming sugar.

 

[brancaster]

If you intend to pasteurize, you can add enough sugar or FAJC to bring it up to 1.010 and let that be both the sweetening and priming sugar.

I do intend to pasteurize. I didn't consider AJC, but wouldn't using enough juice to bring it up to 1.010 have the same affect?

What are the benefits of using AJC over just non-concentrate juice?

 

[Thanks_Yeasties]

Not 100% as I don't use FAJC but I would think the difference is its more sanitary, easier to keep around and doesnt increase the volume of the cider when added for sweetening.

I usually use juice but I take into account the added volume into my final product. It is also important to have a pasteurized unopened bottle for sweetening as you dont want to introduce any new organisms to your cider. Which usually means I get to drink some apple juice after I sweeten. hooooray!

 

[brancaster]

Not 100% as I don't use FAJC but I would think the difference is its more sanitary, easier to keep around and doesnt increase the volume of the cider when added for sweetening.

I usually use juice but I take into account the added volume into my final product. It is also important to have a pasteurized unopened bottle for sweetening as you dont want to introduce any new organisms to your cider. Which usually means I get to drink some apple juice after I sweeten. hooooray!

Oh, it makes sense that it would be more sanitary. I did take into consideration the added volume. I'm going to remove about 15-20% of the gallon of juice before I start fermentation.

Have you ever used juice as a primer for bottle conditioning?

 

[Maylar]

I do intend to pasteurize. I didn't consider AJC, but wouldn't using enough juice to bring it up to 1.010 have the same affect?

What are the benefits of using AJC over just non-concentrate juice?

Concentrate will add much less volume for the same amount of sugar. Juice will dilute your alcohol.

 

[brancaster]

Concentrate will add much less volume for the same amount of sugar. Juice will dilute your alcohol.

Understandable, but wouldn't adding such a small quantity of juice make the dilution of alcohol negligible? I'm thinking a total of 16 oz of juice will be added to the end product of about 100 oz of hard cider.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it go something like this:

OG = 1.055
FG(before sweetening and priming) = 1.005 <-- this is what I'm aiming for. Not actual numbers yet. Could be lower based on taste testing.
ABV = 6.56%

Add enough juice to accomplish desired sweetness levels. I'm thinking about 1.008.

Add the proper amount of juice that contains 1oz of sugar to prime my 1 gallon of hard cider. Approx 8oz. Bringing FG to about 1.011.

After the yeast gobbles up that priming sugar, I'll pasteurize, halting any more sugar consumption. Bringing the final FG back to approximately 1.008.

So true final numbers would be:

OG = 1.055
FG(after sweetening and carbonating) = 1.008
ABV = 6.17%

A difference of 0.39%.

EDIT: It's too early in the day for me for math stuffs.

I'd need to average out the two liquids to get my final ABV reading, right?

So 100oz of hard cider at 6.56% ABV, and 16oz of juice at 0.00% ABV.

Equation: (Volume1 X ABV1) + (Volume2 X ABV2) / (Volume1 + Volume2)

(100 x 0.0656) + (16 x 0.00) / 116 = 5.65%

A difference of 0.91%, which is a bit more, but still not a whole lot.

 

[DaMonkey]

Awesome thanks! I didn't even think to look for a priming calculator.

So my base apple juice is at a SG of 1.055, I'm aiming to ferment it down to about 1.005.

Once I do, I'll add enough sugar/juice to bring it up to say...1.008 for semi sweet, then add the recommended dose of priming sugar?

If you do that you will have bottle bombs.

To prevent bottle bombs then you HAVE TO pasteurize at a very specific time. People fill plastic bottles up with the same cider to check the pressure to know when to pasteurize.

Once again, if you do what you explained and don't pasteurize you will have bottle bombs.

 

[DaMonkey]

Delete

 

[brancaster]

If you do that you will have bottle bombs.

To prevent bottle bombs then you HAVE TO pasteurize at a very specific time. People fill plastic bottles up with the same cider to check the pressure to know when to pasteurize.

Once again, if you do what you explained and don't pasteurize you will have bottle bombs.

Hey DaMonkey,

I mentioned in a few of my previous replies/posts that I will be heat pasteurizing. Ensuring I don't get bottle bombs by using the exact method you mentioned - plastic bottle test.

 

[Maylar]

Understandable, but wouldn't adding such a small quantity of juice make the dilution of alcohol negligible? I'm thinking a total of 16 oz of juice will be added to the end product of about 100 oz of hard cider.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it go something like this:

OG = 1.055
FG(before sweetening and priming) = 1.005 <-- this is what I'm aiming for. Not actual numbers yet. Could be lower based on taste testing.
ABV = 6.56%

Add enough juice to accomplish desired sweetness levels. I'm thinking about 1.008.

Add the proper amount of juice that contains 1oz of sugar to prime my 1 gallon of hard cider. Approx 8oz. Bringing FG to about 1.011.

After the yeast gobbles up that priming sugar, I'll pasteurize, halting any more sugar consumption. Bringing the final FG back to approximately 1.008.

So true final numbers would be:

OG = 1.055
FG(after sweetening and carbonating) = 1.008
ABV = 6.17%

A difference of 0.39%.

EDIT: It's too early in the day for me for math stuffs.

I'd need to average out the two liquids to get my final ABV reading, right?

So 100oz of hard cider at 6.56% ABV, and 16oz of juice at 0.00% ABV.

Equation: (Volume1 X ABV1) + (Volume2 X ABV2) / (Volume1 + Volume2)

(100 x 0.0656) + (16 x 0.00) / 116 = 5.65%

A difference of 0.91%, which is a bit more, but still not a whole lot.

Yes, 16 oz should drop it by about .9%. That vs. about 4 oz of FAJC to achieve the same sugar level. And concentrate gives back more apple flavor to boot. But it's your call.

 

[brancaster]

Yes, 16 oz should drop it by about .9%. That vs. about 4 oz of FAJC to achieve the same sugar level. And concentrate gives back more apple flavor to boot. But it's your call.

Interesting. I've got a lot to think about. Luckily I've got the fermenting time to do so!

If 4 oz of FAJC will give back more apple flavor I might have to go that route. I'm not too concerned about the ~1% in lost ABV, but it would be nice to limit the loss and get more flavor at the same time.

I suppose I'll see how the flavor profile turns out after secondary fermentation and decide what I want to use for sweetening and priming.

Do you have a recommended FAJC?

 

[Harleycodr]

I think I'll try doing the wort/apple juice combo to make my ale - next experiment. I think I will make this current batch I have going into wine. Problem is, I have used unfiltered apple juice. What can I add to it to clear it up? Also, how long should I let it sit in the fermenter before putting it into the secondary fermenter and then how long does it age there before bottling, and then how long before it's drinkable?

So many questions as I shift into making wine...I think I'm going to love it though!

 

[brancaster]

I think I'll try doing the wort/apple juice combo to make my ale - next experiment. I think I will make this current batch I have going into wine. Problem is, I have used unfiltered apple juice. What can I add to it to clear it up? Also, how long should I let it sit in the fermenter before putting it into the secondary fermenter and then how long does it age there before bottling, and then how long before it's drinkable?

So many questions as I shift into making wine...I think I'm going to love it though!

What was the OG of the juice you used?

I'd stop primary when you get a reading of 1.010, then ferment in secondary until you get a reading of what ever sweetness you're looking for. Common ciders read below 1.002 for dry, 1.002-1.012 for medium/semisweet and 1.012 and over for sweet.

You can obviously achieve your desired sweetness with backsweetening.

You can bottle it right when you hit your desired FG and age as long as you'd like. The longer you age, the better it'll tatse, but you can drink it right after you bottle it if you wish.

I'm rather new to this as well, so please, if anyone knows better, correct me if I'm wrong!

P.s. I forgot about your question on clarity. I'm not sure what you can add for clarity on unfiltered apple juice. Is your juice pasteurized? If so, you might be stuck with the cloudiness. Aging will clear it up though.

 

[Harleycodr]

My oritinal gravity reading was 1.050 - I think I'll go take a reading and see where it is and probably transfer it to the secondary. It is pateurized but no preservatives whatsoever.

 

[Harleycodr]

Okay I just took a reading and it's sitting at 1.30 now and I racked into into a secondary.

 

[Iseneye]

Okay I just took a reading and it's sitting at 1.30 now and I racked into into a secondary.

If it is at 1.003 then it will be at or near final gravity. If it's 1.030 it needs to ferment more.

 

[Harleycodr]

1.030 is what I meant....it is still fermenting.

 

[brancaster]

1.030 is what I meant....it is still fermenting.

How long has it been fermenting and at what temperature?

 

[Harleycodr]

It's been fermenting since May 3rd at room temp.