First Brew, Some Questions

[ThunderPanda]

I am making my first brew! I am using three separate one-gallon jugs. I used store bought cider, added 1 cup of white sugar and one cup of brown sugar in each jug. I put in the recommended yeast nutrient, and put yeast in.

My questions are:
1. I put much more than the recommended amount of yeast in: The manufacturer didn't label the volume, and so calculating how much to put in each jug was hard. I tried to guesstimate but it was off, so I am just wondering if this is a problem? I assume it will just ferment faster off the bat

2. I have an airlock on each, and I filled the jugs all the way up to the stopper. Is this right, or will this cause problems? it is certainly a problem for measure specific gravity because it obviously spills over

3. I put a crapton of sugar in. I don't care if the ABV is high, but i want it to be sweet and not dry. Does this mean I have to stop the fermentation BEFORE it completes? And if so,

4. How do I work with carbonation at the end? I wanna bottle it, but if there is still lots of sugar left, I am worried my bottles will explode.

Thanks for your help, I know its lots of beginner stuff but I am trying!

 

[Pappers_]

Have you read through www.makinghardcider.com? It's got just a few pages, but gives good guidance on many of your questions.

 

[oldmate]

+1 on that website from Pappers.

1. It should be fine. I don't ever measure how much I put it. The yeast will reproduce as necessary and it might take a little longer for fermentation to start/finish if you had less, but it will be fine. If you had more, no problem whatsoever.

2. You might want to pour some out, maybe a half inch from the airlock just in case. If you are using an aggressive yeast, you may get a slight krausen. Also, make sure that the liquid itself is not in contact with the airlock, or you will get the bung popping off and a nice sticky mess to clean up.

3. It depends on how much you put in. We can't tell unless you tell us the recipe, but if you put enough in, you will get a HIGH ABV and a sweet brew. In other words, the yeast will give up when they reach their alcohol tolerance (depends on what yeast you used), so no more sugars will be digested.

4. If the situation is what I just explained, then you will not be able to have sparkling bottle carbed cider unless you pitch yeast with a higher ABV tolerance (a wine/champagne yeast) ASSUMING you used a lager/ale yeast with a low tolerance. You could always read up on bottle pasteurisation as per the sticky at the top of the forum and bottle as active fermentation is still going on. I usually do this, but it requires A LOT of care, and I DO NOT suggest this for your first time. Otherwise you can invest in a keg + CO2 system or bottle still.

Hope it helps.

 

[ThunderPanda]

+1 on that website from Pappers.

1. It should be fine. I don't ever measure how much I put it. The yeast will reproduce as necessary and it might take a little longer for fermentation to start/finish if you had less, but it will be fine. If you had more, no problem whatsoever.

2. You might want to pour some out, maybe a half inch from the airlock just in case. If you are using an aggressive yeast, you may get a slight krausen. Also, make sure that the liquid itself is not in contact with the airlock, or you will get the bung popping off and a nice sticky mess to clean up.

3. It depends on how much you put in. We can't tell unless you tell us the recipe, but if you put enough in, you will get a HIGH ABV and a sweet brew. In other words, the yeast will give up when they reach their alcohol tolerance (depends on what yeast you used), so no more sugars will be digested.

4. If the situation is what I just explained, then you will not be able to have sparkling bottle carbed cider unless you pitch yeast with a higher ABV tolerance (a wine/champagne yeast) ASSUMING you used a lager/ale yeast with a low tolerance. You could always read up on bottle pasteurisation as per the sticky at the top of the forum and bottle as active fermentation is still going on. I usually do this, but it requires A LOT of care, and I DO NOT suggest this for your first time. Otherwise you can invest in a keg + CO2 system or bottle still.

Hope it helps.

Thanks, that helps a lot! I will remove some of the liquid. Also, the I used a champagne variety of yeast, so it has a very high tolerance I believe. I don't intend to reach that... I only wanted like 5-7% abv. I don't know if I will have any control over that now though haha... it seems that having a sweet, carbonated cider is going to be quite tricky. Like you said, I could try pasteurizing it after it has carbonated a bit, though I feel like i will time it wrong and they will explode.

What if I put it in champagne bottles? would that allow me to not have to worry about it since they can take such high pressures? Or can they explode too?

 

[oldmate]

Regardless of the bottle (unless you are using titanium or something ridiculous), they will explode under the pressure. Have a read of the sticky, and if you think it you can handle it then I'm sure we can talk you through it. It's simple, but I suggest you get yourself a hydrometer and take some gravity readings.

A sweet cider would be around 1.010 to 1.020. If it were me, (I like my ciders VERY sweet) I would bottle at around 1.020. You set out a few bottles to test the carbonation every day (I don't everyday, but you are new to this, so it might be the best idea). Keep in mind that the carbonation level will increase in hot weather. When you get to the carbonation level that you like, pasteurise as per the sticky. Follow the instructions to the letter and nothing is likely to go wrong, but be prepared and cover some cloth around the pot/cooker you use.

Also, let us know how much sugar you added to get an approx. ABV.

 

[ThunderPanda]

okay I may give that a try... I read the sticky earlier, and I think I might be able to do it. We shall see... And I do actually have a hydrometer, and I took my initial readings. I think two started out at around 1.07 and one was around 1.08. I put 1 cup of white sugar and 1 cup of brown sugar into each one-gallon jug. So I have 2 cups sugar per 1 gallon. Which I gather is a lot. So hopefully I can end up with some sweet stuff. I was hoping I could just refrigerate it and the yeast would die, but it sounds like that just kinda... makes em sleep. So I don't think that will work, so pasteurizing might be my best bet. Or a preservative maybe? Like potassium sorbate?

 

[oldmate]

Oh, I thought you had put in a few kilos of sugar. You should be fine to ferment dry then backsweeten to your preferred taste THEN pasteurise!

 

[Pappers_]

I was hoping I could just refrigerate it and the yeast would die, but it sounds like that just kinda... makes em sleep. So I don't think that will work, so pasteurizing might be my best bet. Or a preservative maybe? Like potassium sorbate?

You can refrigerate them to stop the yeast, you just need to keep them in the fridge. Its a good option. Or you could backsweeten with a non-fermentable. Did you read the website link I gave you? She gives you some very good options.

You seem unclear enough about how things work that I wouldn't recommend that you try pasteurizing on this attempt, maybe later. For example, you keep saying that you hope the cider will be sweet because you added sugar, which is the opposite of how it works, unless you're making really high abv apple wine, as Oldmate said.

 

[oldmate]

Pappers, the only reason I didn't suggest cold crashing them is because my yeast does NOT work that way, I stick them in the fridge at the lowest temperature that it can go, and the yeast still eat away at them sugars. Gushers in an instant. My yeast is some sort of super-yeast though, so I have no idea about other strains.

 

[ThunderPanda]

Yes, i did read that site you gave me pappers. I actually read the whole thing before I posted. I guess I am just not super keen on using artificial sweeteners or just adding the sugars at the end, because I want it to be a more natural taste. I added the sugar at the beginning in the hope that I could get to the same alcohol content and find a way to stop it while there is still sugar left to keep it sweet. I understand that IF you add sugar AND let the process run to completion it will be dryer since there will be more alcohol, but like i said, my plan was to stop it before the process was complete, have a relatively standard/low ABV (around 5-6%) and still have it taste sweet since there was still sugar.

And I still think all this is attainable, my only concern is that with that much sugar, it will ferment too rapidly once I bottle it, and it will be hard for me to gauge when to pasteurize/add a preservative. Obviously if I wait too long to check carbonation it will explode. But as a beginner, I don't know if "too long" could be hours, days, weeks etc. From what I can tell, checking every day should typically suffice, but I don't KNOW. I suppose I could also allow it to carbonate in a cool place (50-60 degrees) so that the yeast will work slower and it will be more manageable...

But you know, part of me feels like if I don't blow up a few bottles or destroy anything, I won't learn... Lol....

 

[Pappers_]

Pappers, the only reason I didn't suggest cold crashing them is because my yeast does NOT work that way, I stick them in the fridge at the lowest temperature that it can go, and the yeast still eat away at them sugars. Gushers in an instant. My yeast is some sort of super-yeast though, so I have no idea about other strains.

Wow! I've never heard of wine or ale yeast doing that. Live and learn!

 

[Pappers_]

Yes, i did read that site you gave me pappers. I actually read the whole thing before I posted. I guess I am just not super keen on using artificial sweeteners or just adding the sugars at the end, because I want it to be a more natural taste. I added the sugar at the beginning in the hope that I could get to the same alcohol content and find a way to stop it while there is still sugar left to keep it sweet. I understand that IF you add sugar AND let the process run to completion it will be dryer since there will be more alcohol, but like i said, my plan was to stop it before the process was complete, have a relatively standard/low ABV (around 5-6%) and still have it taste sweet since there was still sugar.

And I still think all this is attainable, my only concern is that with that much sugar, it will ferment too rapidly once I bottle it, and it will be hard for me to gauge when to pasteurize/add a preservative. Obviously if I wait too long to check carbonation it will explode. But as a beginner, I don't know if "too long" could be hours, days, weeks etc. From what I can tell, checking every day should typically suffice, but I don't KNOW. I suppose I could also allow it to carbonate in a cool place (50-60 degrees) so that the yeast will work slower and it will be more manageable...

But you know, part of me feels like if I don't blow up a few bottles or destroy anything, I won't learn... Lol....

Ok, I understand. Here's some suggestions for your first time:

1) let the cider ferment out to around 1.010 - use your hydrometer to check it, don't guess; if its 1.008 or 1.012, that's fine

2) bottle in beer bottles, because we know how to pasteurize those - it would certainly be possible to pasteurize in champagne bottles, but I've never done it so can't give you guidance on time/temperatures you need to use - and because once you start checking bottles for carbonation, you don't want to have to open an entire champagne bottle

3) because this if your first time and you don't know yet how your recipe and yeast act, I would wait two days and start opening a bottle a day, to test carbonation. when the carbonation is there (but not overly carbonated, err on the side of caution), then follow the directions re: the pasteurizing thread

Hope this helps!

 

[ThunderPanda]

Thanks! That is real helpful. I will do just that. I assume 1.010 is typically sweet? And as for pasteurizing, I actually have some potassium sorbate, could i just put some of that in each bottle instead? Or does that ruin the carbonation since I would have to open each one and/or color the flavor strangely?

If that is too problematic then I will just do the regular pasteurization lol. Just trying to pick the method that is least likely to go wrong

 

[Pappers_]

I don't have personal experience using campden or sorbates for this purpose, but others here report that they do not stop active yeast from fermenting, but fro
reproducing. So they can be used in conjuction with a racking and/or chilling process, but not in the way you are suggesting.

Others with more direct experience might be able to offer more insight.

 

[ThunderPanda]

hmmmm something to think about. I wonder if it would be possible to bottle it even during active fermentation well before the end, and put some potassium sorbate in there, then bottle, and hope the remaining yeast will be able to carbonate it before dying. Maybe there is a perfect point at which to stop it and a timeline for bottling that will allow it to carbonate itself perfectly and then stop... let the experimentation begin!

 

[oldmate]

Pappers - FYI
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/superyeast-234865/

 

[Pappers_]

hmmmm something to think about. I wonder if it would be possible to bottle it even during active fermentation well before the end, and put some potassium sorbate in there, then bottle, and hope the remaining yeast will be able to carbonate it before dying. Maybe there is a perfect point at which to stop it and a timeline for bottling that will allow it to carbonate itself perfectly and then stop... let the experimentation begin!

You didn't understand my post. I think there is near certainty that you will end up with bottle bombs using that method.

 

[ThunderPanda]

You didn't understand my post. I think there is near certainty that you will end up with bottle bombs using that method.

I understood what you were saying, but maybe I am confused about the actual mechanics of potassium sorbate. It must, at some point, either massively slow down, or completely stop the fermentation process, or else there would be no point to using it or no one would use it. My understanding was, and maybe i am wrong, that the p.sorb prevents the yeast from reproducing. The living yeast continue to ferment for a while, then go beyond their life cycle and eventually die. Is this incorrect?

And I was merely thinking of possible ways to accomplish what I am trying to do, I have no idea if potassium sorbate by itself or even in conjunction with something else would be a good method.

I think what I am settling on, however, is like you said earlier, just waiting until maybe 1.010 or somewhere near there, racking, bottling, following standard procedures for checking carbonation, then stove top pasteurizing to stabilize it.

From what I have heard, this should work fine if done properly. I am curious though, most places I have looked, people have said you should test a bottle at two days after bottling for your initial carbonation check... But that is typically coming from people who had cold-crashed or fermented their brew to completion, then added some more sugar and possibly yeast, thereby starting an entirely new colony, which I presume takes far longer than bottling cider undergoing full-blown fermentation.

Does anyone have experience doing what I plan and know what to expect in terms of how long the carbonation process should take?

Disclaimer: I understand that there are many variables that go into it including yeast type, sugar amount, temp, pressure, acidity, specific gravity, etc... But if anyone knows from experience a ballpark figure it would be very helpful. Otherwise I will just end up opening a bottle and checking every couple hours or so lol...

 

[oldmate]

Mine usually takes anywhere between 4 days to a week. Check everyday and you won't screw it up (unlike myself, I have a whole batch which gush when opened.)

 

[ThunderPanda]

Mine usually takes anywhere between 4 days to a week. Check everyday and you won't screw it up (unlike myself, I have a whole batch which gush when opened.)

Hah thanks that is very helpful. I may wait two days for the first check, then every day after that. And I will keep them somewhere where it's okay if they explode, but I am hoping to drink every last one so I don't want any to explode! I think this weekend they will be ready to bottle, so I will let you know how it goes