First BIAB. It all went so well.....I thought

[Colin Williams]

I have just taken the plunge and decided to try my first all grain BIAB and I have failed miserably.

It was a Timothy Taylor Landlord Craftybrews kit and I am just wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction for my next brew.

Grain Bill 4.55kg

It is a 23l kit and I have a 32l Brupak boiler. I decided to do 20L mash with 11L cold dunk sparge. I knew this would leave me a little short but wanted to be under rather than over as I could always add some more water later on.

I seemed to hit my temps OK. 66c for 90 minutes. I stirred very well at the start and 5 times during the mash and applied a bit of heat twice to keep the temp.

After the mash I dunked and squeezed and then added the water to the wort for the main boil.

Boiled for 90 mins and then cooled.

I ended up with 21.5 litres which was what I expected. Tested the gravity which was 1.030 instead of 1.042

I then put the numbers into an efficiency calculator and got a very disappointing 53.3%

It went crazy fermenting for 1 day and now it is barely doing anything. I was going to tip it down the sink but I thought as I had done all the hard work I would see what it ends up like.

I'm wondering if I crush the grain better I will get a better result. Does My process of splitting the mash/sparge water sound right ?

Thanks

 

[FatDragon]

It sounds like you did everything right for a first try (assuming you added hops during the boil). It's possible your grains were very poorly crushed, but a 90 minute mash with a sparge and squeeze should have given you better efficiency than that even then. It's also very possible that you didn't measure your gravity properly - roughly what temperature was the wort when you measured?

Fermentation can be really quick, especially if you're not using temp control (i.e. the beer fermented warmer than it should have). It could be done already, which would be why it went crazy and then slowed down considerably. You'll still probably want to give it a couple weeks minimum to give the yeast a chance to clean up any byproducts they left behind in their frenzy. They can't fix everything, but some conditioning time almost always helps.

Never dump a beer so early in the process unless you have ample experience and strong reason to know that it's a failure.

 

[zacster]

The crush could be too coarse as already stated, and maybe the mash water was too low and didn't allow enough of the sugars to dissolve? Maybe though your temp was too low, and even though you applied heat the temp was still too low at the beginning. Did you calibrate your thermometer against something else? It is only a few degrees difference between good extraction and not.

I just checked my log from a few years ago and see that I would hold back about 1 gallon of water from a 7 gallon mash for rinsing or about 14%, you held back closer to 35%. Maybe that was too much.

 

[RM-MN]

Suggestion for the next batch. Buy a cheap Corona style mill and mill the grain yourself, setting the mill tight. Make sure the water is at the proper strike temp and stir the grains well, then ignore the mash for 60 minutes. Don't apply hear nor stir during that hour. Use more water for the mash and less for the sparge, perhaps even no sparge

 

[Miraculix]

Stiring once in a while during the mash increases efficiency. But the crucial point is the crush. You can and should go very fine with biab. This will bump the efficiency.

Also, just for convenience, do a full volume mash without a sparge. You can squeeze the bag afterwards if you like, or just let it drain by hanging it above the pot, your choice. Either way you should get at least 80% efficiency with this long mash time. Squeezing it will speed things up and get you a few points more, I always squeeze it.

 

[shetc]

Try the BIABacus at https://www.biabrewer.info/ - it works really well with kits. I get from 75% or greater efficiency when using it with pre-designed kits.

On a side note, extra crushing is not a requirement of BIAB - efficiency can be achieved by using more malt, which at the homebrew scale is a small extra cost.

 

[shoengine]

Every time I've done a coarse grind with my BIAB I've had low efficiency. My LHBS has two mills and the non-adjustable drops my efficiency by 25% at least both times I used it.

 

[Miraculix]

Every time I've done a coarse grind with my BIAB I've had low efficiency. My LHBS has two mills and the non-adjustable drops my efficiency by 25% at least both times I used it.

I once had a poorly crushed spelt malt, that was just giving me about 50%, instead of my usual 85%. I left it over night, got nearly 90% at the end plus an unintended soured mash .

It became a Berliner Weisse at the end... although it wasn't sour enough. Anyway, bottom line, if you do overnight mashes, isolate the mash ton, otherwise the lactos will take over as soon as the temperature drops low enough.

 

[Colin Williams]

Thanks for all your positive replies, Very helpful.

I do think the crush was too coarse. There was hardly any dust at all when I added the grain.

I used 2 thermometers which I calibrated with ice first. One was spot on, the other 3 degrees high so adjusted accordingly. I'm pretty sure the temp was right.

The hydrometer reading was taken before I pitched the yeast so it was about 22c

I can't do a full mash as the pot is only 32l so that's why i did the dunk sparge. I am going to decrease the amount and up the mash water.

I have always done good 3kilo malt kits and found them so easy with excellent results every time and this just made me feel like I had just wasted 6 hours for nothing. I was going to just go back to extract but your replies have rallied me on so I will be tackling my next kit, Wreck the Halls, when I have either drunk this or tipped it down the sink.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for all your positive replies, Very helpful.

I do think the crush was too coarse. There was hardly any dust at all when I added the grain.

I used 2 thermometers which I calibrated with ice first. One was spot on, the other 3 degrees high so adjusted accordingly. I'm pretty sure the temp was right.

The hydrometer reading was taken before I pitched the yeast so it was about 22c

I can't do a full mash as the pot is only 32l so that's why i did the dunk sparge. I am going to decrease the amount and up the mash water.

I have always done good 3kilo malt kits and found them so easy with excellent results every time and this just made me feel like I had just wasted 6 hours for nothing. I was going to just go back to extract but your replies have rallied me on so I will be tackling my next kit, Wreck the Halls, when I have either drunk this or tipped it down the sink.

First of all, it wasn't 6 hours for nothing, because you learned a lot.

And second, you probably got a perfectly fine session beer, I don't see any problem with that!

And third (i Like counting, I can count already up to three!), You might want to add a 20 minute mashout step at the end, which increases head a lot I have found.

I mash in my boil pot and just apply heat till it reaches the 77c while stirring a bit to prevent scorching of the bag or grain.

 

[Horseflesh]

If one low efficiency batch is the biggest problem you ever have you're doing great. Your beer will still be tasty.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Don’t dump it it will just have lower ABV and likely a little less body. I’m curious as to why you decided to do a cold sparge. I tend to do a batch sparge in another large pot or bucket with 170F water.

 

[deadwolfbones]

The other possible culprit, aside from the crush (which is most likely), is mash pH. What kind of water did you use?

 

[OnePlate]

As everyone has already said, you haven't wasted your time. You've learned a lot and you'll still have tasty beer.

Obviously, the grain crush could be a major factor but you didn't mention if you did a "mash out" by raising the temp to 77C or so. A bad grain crush can be partially overcome with a long enough mash time and a proper mash-out.

I've read about cold dunk sparges too but after having a few batches where I thought my conversion was really low, heating up the mash to 77 at the end for 10-15 minutes let the rest of the converted sugars come off the grain and I nailed my expected numbers. I no longer do dunk sparges and just raise the mash out temp at the end (and squeeze the hell out of my grain bag) and I almost always nail my expected numbers. Since you can't do full-volume mashes, all you might need to do is add water to get to your target pre-boil gravity & volume.

It takes some trial and error to figure out what system works best for your equipment. My efficiency % is in the mid-80s now after figuring out my system. It only takes a couple batches to get there.

 

[Colin Williams]

You guys have been great and have given me the answers I think I need for my next brew.

The reason I didn't do a mash out is that it wasn't in the instructions. In my ignorance I thought you only did a mash out for particular types of grain or brews.

My PH should be spot on as I live literally down the road from where TT is brewed. I would normally use 5l bottled water for all my brews and wine but as I want it as close as possible to the original I used tap water. We are in a soft water area.

I am going to crush my grain more. Leave out the sparge and do a mash out and see how it goes. I will report back.

As an aside. I kegged up 30 pints of an American Mocca Porter kit on Sunday and just to check it was gassing up OK,(of course), I had a pint last night. Tasted amazing already

 

[Miraculix]

As everyone has already said, you haven't wasted your time. You've learned a lot and you'll still have tasty beer.

Obviously, the grain crush could be a major factor but you didn't mention if you did a "mash out" by raising the temp to 77C or so. A bad grain crush can be partially overcome with a long enough mash time and a proper mash-out.

I've read about cold dunk sparges too but after having a few batches where I thought my conversion was really low, heating up the mash to 77 at the end for 10-15 minutes let the rest of the converted sugars come off the grain and I nailed my expected numbers. I no longer do dunk sparges and just raise the mash out temp at the end (and squeeze the hell out of my grain bag) and I almost always nail my expected numbers. Since you can't do full-volume mashes, all you might need to do is add water to get to your target pre-boil gravity & volume.

It takes some trial and error to figure out what system works best for your equipment. My efficiency % is in the mid-80s now after figuring out my system. It only takes a couple batches to get there.

That sounds exactly like the process I am also using

 

[RM-MN]

You guys have been great and have given me the answers I think I need for my next brew.

The reason I didn't do a mash out is that it wasn't in the instructions. In my ignorance I thought you only did a mash out for particular types of grain or brews.

My PH should be spot on as I live literally down the road from where TT is brewed. I would normally use 5l bottled water for all my brews and wine but as I want it as close as possible to the original I used tap water. We are in a soft water area.

I am going to crush my grain more. Leave out the sparge and do a mash out and see how it goes. I will report back.

As an aside. I kegged up 30 pints of an American Mocca Porter kit on Sunday and just to check it was gassing up OK,(of course), I had a pint last night. Tasted amazing already

A mash out isn't in the instructions because it shouldn't be needed. What a mash out will do in a BIAB is speed up the alpha amylase when conversion is not complete in the allotted mash period. With a decent milling of the grain, the conversion will be well over before that allotted mash period. Get the grain crushed well and forget the mash out.

 

[Miraculix]

A mash out isn't in the instructions because it shouldn't be needed. What a mash out will do in a BIAB is speed up the alpha amylase when conversion is not complete in the allotted mash period. With a decent milling of the grain, the conversion will be well over before that allotted mash period. Get the grain crushed well and forget the mash out.

That is not correct, as the mash out is not about conversion.

In fact, it actually stops conversion as all the enzymes are really quickly denatured at this temperature.

But what a mash out also does is it lowers viscosity of the wort and makes it easier to drain the grain, which improves the efficiency.

It also creates a certain type of protein which increases head retention quite a lot, I wouldn't go without this step.

 

[Oginme]

That is not correct, as the mash out is not about conversion.

In fact, it actually stops conversion as all the enzymes are really quickly denatured at this temperature.

But what a mash out also does is it lowers viscosity of the wort and makes it easier to drain the grain, which improves the efficiency.

It also creates a certain type of protein which increases head retention quite a lot, I wouldn't go without this step.

While everything above is true, it needs to be put in context. For a pro brewer working with a higher grain bed depth, the slight increase in fluidity of the wort by bringing it up to 168F from 154F leads to faster drainage rates, more wort recovered from the mash and better efficiency of lautering. For a BIAB system where there is no real obstacle in draining the wort from the bag, it is much less meaningful. Early in my BIAB attempts, doing a mash out lead to less than a point of gravity increase on average and no greater measurable volume since I was squeezing the bag in both cases. It did make a greater improvement in higher gravity recipes (above 1.075 gravity) than it did for lower gravity beers.

 

[RM-MN]

That is not correct, as the mash out is not about conversion.

In fact, it actually stops conversion as all the enzymes are really quickly denatured at this temperature.

But what a mash out also does is it lowers viscosity of the wort and makes it easier to drain the grain, which improves the efficiency.

It also creates a certain type of protein which increases head retention quite a lot, I wouldn't go without this step.

Indeed it does stop the conversion if it is not complete but before it does that it also speeds up conversion by accentuating the speed at which alpha amylase works which is the cause of a higher gravity if a mash out is used.

The measured change in viscosity is so slight that it makes no real difference on the homebrew scale.

 

[LittleRiver]

I agree with skipping the mash out. Myself and many others are getting great efficiency without it.

 

[Miraculix]

Indeed it does stop the conversion if it is not complete but before it does that it also speeds up conversion by accentuating the speed at which alpha amylase works which is the cause of a higher gravity if a mash out is used.

The measured change in viscosity is so slight that it makes no real difference on the homebrew scale.

My guess is, as said above by @Oginme , that is matters with high gravity brews, but for normal strength, it probably does not make much of a difference regarding extraction.

But, the main aspect, at least for me, was the foam through glycoproteins formed at this temperature, and this alone is a good reason to do the 20 min mashout step at 77c.
Improved my beers a lot.

 

[deadwolfbones]

My PH should be spot on as I live literally down the road from where TT is brewed. I would normally use 5l bottled water for all my brews and wine but as I want it as close as possible to the original I used tap water. We are in a soft water area.

That's good, but mash pH is about the grist + the salts in the water. The starting pH of the water itself doesn't matter much.

Do you know for sure that TT uses tap water? Most breweries nowadays use RO water and treat it to get the results they want; few are drawing directly from the municipal supply without treating it (though a few do notably use wells).

Also, if you're using tap water you need to be careful about chlorine.

 

[Colin Williams]

That's a good point I just had a look and they use an artesian well. I will check my PH

 

[deadwolfbones]

That's a good point I just had a look and they use an artesian well. I will check my PH

I use this calculator, which will tell you the anticipated mash pH for your beer and will also tell you how much acid to use to get to the ideal pH: https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

It's a bit complicated if you've never addressed water chemistry before, but very accurate.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I dunk sparge and don't do a mash out and get brewhouse efficiencies in the 70s. I think I could crush it even finer too. What greatly increased my efficiency was getting a corona mill and smashing my own grain(the online stores sucked at this) and increasing my mash water volume.

 

[WhiteRhyno]

I had the same issues, and with my last brew, I bought a twin drum roller and set it too its finest setting, and I also bought a decent Hanna thermometer to get my temps right.
Immediately went from efficiencies in the 57% range to 77%, with a mash efficiency of 87%

Well worth it, and milling your own grains is sooo rewarding and satisfying

 

[Colin Williams]

Ive got a malt mill on order. One of the stainless steel 2 roller ones. Going to give my next batch a good crush and see what happens.

My first brew is still fermenting slowly, I'm actually looking forward to trying it even though I don't think it will be all that good.

 

[LittleRiver]

Good call on buying your mills. If you're going to BIAB you really do need your own.

The bonus is that if you buy your base grain in full sacks, the savings will soon pay for the mill.

 

[Colin Williams]

Put most of this in a barrel today and 4x500ml PET bottles. Finished at 3.68% Very wishy washy but also had a strange bitty suspension when I looked at it. Tasted like the weak stuff I avoid in pubs at all cost. We shall see what happens in a few weeks time. It is taking up valuable barrel space but I am going to hold out.