Efficiency Issues - UPDATED

[capt_yo55arian]

Might be a little overdramatic here, but if someone can talk me off a ledge, that'd be great.

After several full volume BIAB brews in the mid to low 60% efficiency, I figured I'd try a sparge to see if this would bump my efficiency. I told the LHBS to double crush, but honestly grains looked the same as previous.

Equipment Anvil Foundry 10.5

Put about 4.75 gallons of water in the mash, 90 min later, lifted grain bag, put inside Anvil grain pipe, sparged with 3.2 gallons of water (using a pump). Noticed at the end I was about .4 gallons above what I was aiming for. Took a gravity read and was at 1.026. Aiming for 1.038. Confirmed with another hydrometer. Went with a 90 min boil instead of 60, threw some DME in there, and ended with 1.037, target was 1.047. Approx brewhouse efficiency is 54%.

For the recipe, it was a Kentucky Common and I decided to just use filtered tap water (first time not using distilled with brewing salts). Didn't take a PH. Mashed @ 152.

I'm thinking of buying a Corona mill and giving the grains an extra crush after I get them from the LHBS but if anyone has any suggestions that would be awesome. Just kinda disheartening to go through all these extra steps and miss the mark even more so. And then to have to sit and ponder it until this is ready to keg.


- UPDATE -

In the middle of a brew day, and this one is going much better.

Saison--
9# Pilsner
1# Wheat
1# Vienna
4oz Victory
8oz Sugar

Beersmith telling me my pre-boil gravity should be 1.051(72% BH efficiency) and after a few refractor measurements, some a little high some low, its looking like 1.049.

Gravity Reading in kettle after mash - 1.07
" sparge water - 1.009
" sparge and kettle combined - 1.035
" with sugar added - 1.049
(volumes were hit)

I did not get a grain mill (yet) but I told the LHBS to crush fine. This was the consistency:

Would like to hear anyones thoughts on this crush.

Here's the bag after the dunk sparge:

OG was at 1.058 (estimated at 1.062) for a BH Efficiency of 67%. Man, not sure how some of you are hitting 70-80 w/BIAB, but im pretty satisfied with todays brewery. Hope to improve next time by utilizing PH meter and milling own grains.

 

[PCABrewing]

If you buy a mill then why wouldn't you just do the crushing yourself?
Did your post-boil volume match the expected volume?
I haven't used that system but I wonder if the bag was uniformly saturated throughout the mash.
Tried to find an applicable catch 22 situation here but I failed.

Edit: are you confident in all your measurements (Gauge R&R)? Temp, gravity volume

 

[capt_yo55arian]

If you buy a mill then why wouldn't you just do the crushing yourself?
Did your post-boil volume match the expected volume?
I haven't used that system but I wonder if the bag was uniformly saturated throughout the mash.
Tried to find an applicable catch 22 situation here but I failed.

Edit: are you confident in all your measurements (Gauge R&R)? Temp, gravity volume

Milling myself would probably be best solution, you're right. Just one extra piece of equipment that I thought I could let the LHBS take care of and not worry about it.

Post-boil volume was correct, and volume into fermenter was correct as well, after the adjusted 90 min boil. Anvil does a pretty good job at holding a correct temp, and I have it recirculating through a pump. Its a 240 V system as well, so its a pretty rigorous boil.

 

[sibelman]

Just in case: you didn't mention stirring the grains to break up dough balls.

 

[bracconiere]

i think @PCABrewing was thinking more what temp you took the hydro reading?

this was a 5 gallon batch? and how many pounds of malt did you use?

 

[capt_yo55arian]

Just in case: you didn't mention stirring the grains to break up dough balls.

yeah, made sure to stir a few times during mash ... also careful with pouring in grains to avoid the balls.

 

[PCABrewing]

i think @PCABrewing was thinking more what temp you took the hydro reading?

this was a 5 gallon batch? and how many pounds of malt did you use?

I was actually curious about the mash temp though gravity reading could skew a little bit, not that much though unless it was really off.
OP says he is recirculating, I presume the mash, so that "should" even out the mash temp and saturation of the bed.
I wonder if OP is not getting the sparge done adequately and leaving some sugar behind.
@OP, do you squeeze the bag?

 

[capt_yo55arian]

i think @PCABrewing was thinking more what temp you took the hydro reading?

this was a 5 gallon batch? and how many pounds of malt did you use?

ah got it. used a refractometer for initial readings... then hydrometer to confirm .. I cooled hydrometer to about 80ish.

5 gallon batch-- 9.5 lbs of grain, mainly 2 row and flaked corn.

 

[capt_yo55arian]

I was actually curious about the mash temp though gravity reading could skew a little bit, not that much though unless it was really off.
OP says he is recirculating, I presume the mash, so that "should" even out the mash temp and saturation of the bed.
I wonder if OP is not getting the sparge done adequately and leaving some sugar behind.
@OP, do you squeeze the bag?

So this is the first time I did not squeeze the bag... My usual method is to do a full volume, then hoist, and squeeze the ever living S out of it until I reach volume (not using the Anvil malt pipe at all).

This time, pulled the bag out, put the bag into the Anvil malt pipe, let it drip, hooked up the pump, and let the water slowly disperse on top of the bag/grains (the water drips onto a small perforated screen, which helps distributing it a little more evenly) . I was hoping the sparge would wash the residual sugars off... also, assumed a thicker mash would fix my efficiency problems.

 

[bracconiere]

mainly 2 row and flaked corn.

for my own curiosity, i know people say flaked corn doesn't need a cereal mash, but i've always been skeptical. how many pounds of corn did you use?

 

[capt_yo55arian]

for my own curiosity, i know people say flaked corn doesn't need a cereal mash, but i've always been skeptical. how many pounds of corn did you use?

2.17 pounds of corn... 6.5 of 2 row

 

[bracconiere]

assuming the corn didn't gel that's a respectable 78% effec?

 

[DBhomebrew]

This time, pulled the bag out, put the bag into the Anvil malt pipe, let it drip, hooked up the pump, and let the water slowly disperse on top of the bag/grains (the water drips onto a small perforated screen, which helps distributing it a little more evenly) . I was hoping the sparge would wash the residual sugars off...

A pour over doesn't get into the compressed grain mass very well. Do a dunk sparge in a separate vessel with room temp water.

 

[capt_yo55arian]

assuming the corn didn't gel that's a respectable 78% effec?

hmm, my pre boil gravity was off about about 12 pts from what beersmith was giving me. got this recipe from Craft Beer and Brewing mag and its also saying the OG should be 1.046 @ 72%.

 

[capt_yo55arian]

A pour over doesn't get into the compressed grain mass very well. Do a dunk sparge in a separate vessel with room temp water.

Might try that. Just to confirm -- dunk the bag into about 2 gallons of water, squeeze into the dunking vessel, then pour into Anvil (kettle)?

 

[bracconiere]

my statement, was that corn has a much higher gelatinization temp then barley. people say that the flaking proccess gel's the starch so the enzymes can act on it, but i've never really been convinced. you say you usually get 60%, how often do you use corn? either disregard me, or try boiling the corn before adding it to the mash...

 

[capt_yo55arian]

my statement, was that corn has a much higher gelatinization temp then barley. people say that the flaking proccess gel's the starch so the enzymes can act on it, but i've never really been convinced. you say you usually get 60%, how often do you use corn? either disregard me, or try boiling the corn before adding it to the mash...

Ah, got it..I don't use flaked corn very often. Just on a couple of specific styles , like this common and a cream ale. thats an interesting idea though.

 

[bracconiere]

Ah, got it..I don't use flaked corn very often. Just on a couple of specific styles , like this common and a cream ale. thats an interesting idea though.

then yeah go with db's advice with the dunk sparge. i think that's your ticket! might want to peruse batch sparging for some more ideas on it also, i'd think might get some use out of it...when i was first brewing i was fly sparging full open, got around 64% effec, didn't even learn i needed to do it slowly until the internet...

 

[capt_yo55arian]

then yeah go with db's advice with the dunk sparge. i think that's your ticket! might want to peruse batch sparging for some more ideas on it also, i'd think might get some use out of it...when i was first brewing i was fly sparging full open, got around 64% effec, didn't even learn i needed to do it slowly until the internet...

Hah, yeah , glad to have a resource like this I can turn to. Will def try the dunk sparge. Too bad I have to sit and ponder this for 2 weeks waiting for my 3.5% ABV beer to ferment lol

 

[bracconiere]

Hah, yeah , glad to have a resource like this I can turn to. Will def try the dunk sparge. Too bad I have to sit and ponder this for 2 weeks waiting for my 3.5% ABV beer to ferment lol

i thought people ran to the hardware store for stuff all the time? $5 for a bucket, $3 for a lid, 83% effec priceless! (well actually, about $4 bucks cheaper a batch assuming $2 a pound for malt...)

edit: actually pet smart would be better for a vittels vault fermenter!

 

[DBhomebrew]

Best efficiency with a dunk sparge will be found via:

1 - Figure your sparge volume to be ~1/2 of your pre-boil volume.

2 - Drain the bag very well before sparging. Squeeze, don't squeeze, try to make it consistent.

3 - Put the well-drained bag into the sparge water, open the bag, mix it up fully, close it up, and pull. Squeeze or don't, make it consistent. Pour 2nd runnings into kettle.

 

[capt_yo55arian]

Best efficiency with a dunk sparge will be found via:

1 - Figure your sparge volume to be ~1/2 of your pre-boil volume.

2 - Drain the bag very well before sparging. Squeeze, don't squeeze, try to make it consistent.

3 - Put the well-drained bag into the sparge water, open the bag, mix it up fully, close it up, and pull. Squeeze or don't, make it consistent. Pour 2nd runnings into kettle.

Thanks, this is the most succinct explanation of a dunk sparge I’ve seen. Will be trying this next brew!

 

[capt_yo55arian]

i thought people ran to the hardware store for stuff all the time? $5 for a bucket, $3 for a lid, 83% effec priceless! (well actually, about $4 bucks cheaper a batch assuming $2 a pound for malt...)

edit: actually pet smart would be better for a vittels vault fermenter!

hah you make a good point. will do a saison and ferment warm so I dont have to use the Ferm fridge. I'll post my results w/ the dunk sparge!

 

[bracconiere]

I'll post my results w/ the dunk sparge!

looking forward to it! i'm still learning about BIAB myself, just actually noticed that's where this thread is.

 

[RM-MN]

Milling myself would probably be best solution, you're right. Just one extra piece of equipment that I thought I could let the LHBS take care of and not worry about it.

Post-boil volume was correct, and volume into fermenter was correct as well, after the adjusted 90 min boil. Anvil does a pretty good job at holding a correct temp, and I have it recirculating through a pump. Its a 240 V system as well, so its a pretty rigorous boil.

The biggest factor in mash efficiency is the quality of the grain milling. You and the LHBS have conflicting goals. Your goal is to make good beer with the least amount of grain while the LHBS has a goal to make the most money possible without irritating customers. That means that the LHBS will mill the grain too coarse so that people don't get a stuck mash which then means that their mash efficiency is low so the LHBS gets to sell more grain. If you get a mill of your own, you control the mash efficiency by milling finer, thus using less grain. If you buy the grain in bulk you save more money that way too. Then you don't need the trip to the LHBS to make your beer so you save fuel and wear on vehicle costs. Since you didn't go to the LHBS you aren't tempted to buy more things which also saves you money.

One caution if you get your own mill. Milling the grains fine and then trying to recirculate will clog the pores of the grain bag so you still get a stuck mash. Simple workaround for that is to forget recirculation. If the grains are milled very fine, the starches convert so quickly that there will be so little temperature drop during conversion that it can be ignored.

hah you make a good point. will do a saison and ferment warm so I dont have to use the Ferm fridge. I'll post my results w/ the dunk sparge!

You mention having to wait for the current beer to ferment before try the dunk sparge. The beer you have in the fermentation fridge only needs to be there about 3-4 days after which it can be allowed to come to room temp for the remainder of the fermentation. Add another 3 bucket fermenters to your inventory and brew a batch every week if you want. That allows the first one to remain in the fermenter for a full month, plenty of time for it to ferment, settle, and begin maturing.

 

[MicroMickey]

Running already-crushed grain through a Corona grain mill is a mistake. All the Corona will do is shred the husks which will lead to lautering problems. The flaw in the OP's scenario described is the failure to check the mash pH.
Flaked corn (as well as barley, oats, rye, etc.), is gelatinized during the processing. The grain is run through rollers; one of which is heated with live steam. What flaked grains don't have is enough diastatic enzymes to convert. From what I've read, the enzymes exist but in minuscule proportions. As long as the rest of the grist bill has the DP, mashing will proceed as expected.

 

[DBhomebrew]

A Corona is perfectly suitable for BIAB which does not have near the lautering difficulties as a traditional lauter.

I mill with a Corona. With a sizable amount of flour and fairly shredded husks I get ~.8175 loss to absorption. That's consistent with flaked adjunct such as barley, oats, and corn.

 

[MicroMickey]

What I said is that running already milled grist through a Corona grain mill is a mistake. I've got a Corona and have used it for years. I finally stepped up to a roller mill but still use the Corona for raw wheat, raw spelt, rice, etc.

 

[Tobin Bottman]

Might be a little overdramatic here, but if someone can talk me off a ledge, that'd be great.

After several full volume BIAB brews in the mid to low 60% efficiency, I figured I'd try a sparge to see if this would bump my efficiency. I told the LHBS to double crush, but honestly grains looked the same as previous.

Equipment Anvil Foundry 10.5

Put about 4.75 gallons of water in the mash, 90 min later, lifted grain bag, put inside Anvil grain pipe, sparged with 3.2 gallons of water (using a pump). Noticed at the end I was about .4 gallons above what I was aiming for. Took a gravity read and was at 1.026. Aiming for 1.038. Confirmed with another hydrometer. Went with a 90 min boil instead of 60, threw some DME in there, and ended with 1.037, target was 1.047. Approx brewhouse efficiency is 54%.

For the recipe, it was a Kentucky Common and I decided to just use filtered tap water (first time not using distilled with brewing salts). Didn't take a PH. Mashed @ 152.

I'm thinking of buying a Corona mill and giving the grains an extra crush after I get them from the LHBS but if anyone has any suggestions that would be awesome. Just kinda disheartening to go through all these extra steps and miss the mark even more so. And then to have to sit and ponder it until this is ready to keg.

How long did you sparge for? On my three vessel system we aim to sparge a 5 gallon batch slowly over 40 minutes or so. For my single vessel system, I just bump up the grain bill a bit…

Do you use recipe software? If not, I recommend it. Figure out your efficiency and plug that into your profile and don’t worry about the extra couple $$ of grain you will need to buy every batch.

Let us know how the batch tastes when it is done as that is what really matters!

 

[capt_yo55arian]

The biggest factor in mash efficiency is the quality of the grain milling. You and the LHBS have conflicting goals. Your goal is to make good beer with the least amount of grain while the LHBS has a goal to make the most money possible without irritating customers. That means that the LHBS will mill the grain too coarse so that people don't get a stuck mash which then means that their mash efficiency is low so the LHBS gets to sell more grain. If you get a mill of your own, you control the mash efficiency by milling finer, thus using less grain. If you buy the grain in bulk you save more money that way too. Then you don't need the trip to the LHBS to make your beer so you save fuel and wear on vehicle costs. Since you didn't go to the LHBS you aren't tempted to buy more things which also saves you money.

Makes sense regarding LHBS. I think I will eventually invest in a mill, but purchase the grain through them. They really are a great resource and I just don't have the space to store a variety of malts (unless I build a shed for the backyard).

 

[capt_yo55arian]

How long did you sparge for? On my three vessel system we aim to sparge a 5 gallon batch slowly over 40 minutes or so. For my single vessel system, I just bump up the grain bill a bit…

Do you use recipe software? If not, I recommend it. Figure out your efficiency and plug that into your profile and don’t worry about the extra couple $$ of grain you will need to buy every batch.

Let us know how the batch tastes when it is done as that is what really matters!

Sparged for about 20-30 min using the 3 gallons of water... I do use Beersmith but I've been hesitant to commit to an efficiency since my previous BIABs were on the low end, and this one was completely off.

Previously I was getting high 60s to low 70s using the Anvil malt pipe before I switched to BIAB. I made the switch because of the stuck mashes which were a constant pain. I love the simplicity of and ease of use with BIAB , I just need to dial in my process.

Will def let you know how the batch comes out! It's chugging away in the fermenter this morning, so bright side, beer was made lol

 

[capt_yo55arian]

The flaw in the OP's scenario described is the failure to check the mash pH.

I was thinking about this too. My PH meter is unreliable so what I usually do is plug in the recipe using Beersmith and then use the Brew N Water model for lactic acid addition. I did not do that this time, just kind of winged it since using filtered tap water (my idea was that this was going to be a low cost, no frills common). Probably a compounded mistake in addition to the grain crush.

 

[Bobby_M]

The biggest factor in mash efficiency is the quality of the grain milling. You and the LHBS have conflicting goals. Your goal is to make good beer with the least amount of grain while the LHBS has a goal to make the most money possible without irritating customers. That means that the LHBS will mill the grain too coarse so that people don't get a stuck mash which then means that their mash efficiency is low so the LHBS gets to sell more grain.

As as a LHBS owner, I want to take issue with this statement. My goal is to give customers the exactly kind of crush they want. I'm not saying there isn't a very small portion of owners that could possibly think the way you're suggesting, but I have my doubts. I'd say the reason for disappointing crushing would be more attributable to a worn out mill, a mill setup that's difficult to adjust on the fly, or the constant battle between fine enough for good efficiency but coarse enough to avoid a stuck runoff.

 

[Bobby_M]

Sparged for about 20-30 min using the 3 gallons of water... I do use Beersmith but I've been hesitant to commit to an efficiency since my previous BIABs were on the low end, and this one was completely off.

Previously I was getting high 60s to low 70s using the Anvil malt pipe before I switched to BIAB. I made the switch because of the stuck mashes which were a constant pain. I love the simplicity of and ease of use with BIAB , I just need to dial in my process.

Will def let you know how the batch comes out! It's chugging away in the fermenter this morning, so bright side, beer was made lol

Are you keeping some area of liquid mash below the bag or are you allowing the bag to sit flat on the bottom?

 

[capt_yo55arian]

Are you keeping some area of liquid mash below the bag or are you allowing the bag to sit flat on the bottom?

Hey Bobby.. bought all my QDs from you and locline! Love them all.

Yea I got a brewzilla false bottom I rigged to fit an inch or so above the anvil valve.

 

[RM-MN]

As as a LHBS owner, I want to take issue with this statement. My goal is to give customers the exactly kind of crush they want. I'm not saying there isn't a very small portion of owners that could possibly think the way you're suggesting, but I have my doubts. I'd say the reason for disappointing crushing would be more attributable to a worn out mill, a mill setup that's difficult to adjust on the fly, or the constant battle between fine enough for good efficiency but coarse enough to avoid a stuck runoff.

Suppose you serve 100 customers a day. Do you adjust the mill different for every one or do you choose a reasonable compromise and crush that, perhaps adjusting 2-5 times a day? At some point, crushing differently for each customer cost you money as it takes time. I desire the finest crush you can possibly make. The next customer would complain if you forgot to adjust the mill differently as they would have an impossibly stuck mash with a conventional mash tun. How many times can that happen?

 

[soccerdad]

I have a.Corona style mill and highly recommended it. You could also try an over night mash. I know that scares some folks, but it needn't.

 

[Bobby_M]

Suppose you serve 100 customers a day. Do you adjust the mill different for every one or do you choose a reasonable compromise and crush that, perhaps adjusting 2-5 times a day?

I set my mill for every customer one at a time exactly how I'd like to be treated if it were my grain order. We don't forget to set it to the desired crush EVER. Hell, we fill some orders where each grain batch has a different mill setting because they will brew one on a 3 vessel and another on a BIAB.

We have two standard mill options to select from, "normal for false bottoms" which is .030" and "extra fine for BIAB" which is about .018". Those two settings are indexed on the mill adjustor knobs and the lock/unlock function is done with T-bolts and are easily done by hand. I even accommodate people who request "please mill as fine as possible" and I will push the adjustor to the point where the rollers touch and then back off by .002". On the other side of the spectrum, some customers say good lauter speed is more important than efficiency and I'll dial it in to about .038" and verify it's not leaving any whole kernels.

When we were extremely busy, I roll in my extra Monster Mill and set each of the mills to each of the standard settings so that it's less likely that we have to adjust (unless a custom request) and we can mill batches simultaneously. We're not currently needing that configuration because our walk in hours are limited and we can better allot labor resources in the grain room over the entire day for the pickups.

Extra time? When someone fills out a grain order sheet in the store and neglects to select a particular crush setting we go find them in the store and ask rather than just eyeball it.

At some point, crushing differently for each customer cost you money as it takes time.

Well, running a business costs money. It's like saying, carrying liquid yeast is a huge hassle and there's a bunch of spoilage so only sell dry yeast? No. I wouldn't shop at a LHBS like that so I'm not going to run it half-assed.

 

[Protos]

In my experience, I noted that extraction efficiency decreases along with the aging of the grain.
Today I repeated a brew I made exactly a year before, same single-malt recipe and same batch of malt. All other variables being equal, I got 5% less extraction than the last year.
You might want to try to brew a batch with a grain you're absolutely sure is fresh. It might be, the low efficiency is not your fault.

 

[capt_yo55arian]

In my experience, I noted that extraction efficiency decreases along with the aging of the grain.
Today I repeated a brew I made exactly a year before, same single-malt recipe and same batch of malt. All other variables being equal, I got 5% less extraction than the last year.
You might want to try to brew a batch with a grain you're absolutely sure is fresh. It might be, the low efficiency is not your fault.

Interesting. Something to look at in addition to crush.