First beer, thin and bland. Where did I go wrong?

[TeeJayEss]

Hey y'all,

My very first brew day was about three and a half weeks ago, and I kegged last Saturday (just under 3 weeks in primary). Force carbonating @ 12psi (bit left to go, yet), but I decided to pull half a pint last night just to see how things were progressing. While my beer looks and smells like beer, it's come out very thin, and definitely on the bland side. I'm hoping you guys might be able to help me sort out why that might be, and figure out what I can do differently the next time around.

Recipe: Big Red Amber Ale. Extract recipe. Made a basic starter from Wyeast 1056, and then followed the recipe exactly, except: (1) I subbed in Cascade for Centennial, which was out of stock; and (2) I kegged straight from primary, rather than racking to secondary.

Prep and boil: Diligent PBW + StarSan throughout the process. 2.5 gallon boil (used distilled water), with additions according to the recipe. Learned that 17.5 oz of grains takes up much more volume in a strainer than I would have guessed.

After my boil, chilled to about 70F with an immersion chiller, strained, and topped off with cool distilled water (maybe worth noting that I had a pretty good amount of boil-off - had to add around three gallons to bring it up to 5gals). Poured back and forth between my kettle and fermenting bucket to aerate. Unfortunately, my hydrometer sprouted legs and jumped off the table, and I never got an OG reading. I'm guessing at this point that I did not hit the recipe's 1.056 OG, but I don't know for sure.

Fermentation: Pitched my starter, sealed the fermenter, popped in my airlock and filled with vodka. Fermented in an 8 gallon plastic bucket, and used an electric heating pad with a Ranco (probe taped to the outside of the bucket under a few layers of bubble wrap) to keep the temp at an even 66 throughout primary. Visible fermentation started after about 36 hours, and visible fermentation had stopped after 7 days. Left it alone except to refill the airlock as needed. Gravity on the two days before kegging and day of was level at 1.015.

Kegging: Disassembled keg (used 5 gal ball lock corny), cleaned, sanitized, and put on new gaskets. Pressurized and tested for leaks. Autosiphoned onto a bed of CO2. First 80% went smoothly, but then I broke the vacuum and pulled some air in. Tried to restart the siphon but didn't have great room between the beer level and the yeast swamp, so I ended up pulling a bit more air in. Rather than keep oxygenating things, I pulled the siphon, pressurized, and popped it in the freezer to start force carbing (12 psi @ ~38F).

Early Result: So, after about 3.5 weeks after brewday (and 5 days of force carbing), I pulled about half a glass just to see where things stood. It tasted a little flat - not surprising - but what really struck me was how thin and bland it was. The beer's described as "malty," with "a notable caramel note, balanced by a substantial citrus/floral hop flavor and aroma." Suffice it to say, I'm not getting those flavors or aromas - at least not in what I would call "notable" or "substantial" amounts. It's more like a thin, watery brown ale. It's not bad - it doesn't taste spoiled or "off" - it's just... boring.

Is my beer going to hit the gym and bulk up some in the next few weeks, or did I just miss the mark somewhere along the way? I'm going to let it keep doing its thing and see how it ages, but right now I'm having a tough time imagining this beer doing much in the way of self-improvement.

Before my next brew day I'll be making a few changes, like building a DIY stir plate, picking up a diffusion stone/oxygen tank for a little aeration wand, a bigger strainer, and a spare hydrometer (or three). I suspect that missing the OG reading might make it difficult to know for sure what's going on, but does anything about the process seem off? I appreciate any thoughts you guys might have.

In any case, can't wait for my next brewday!

 

[lousbrews]

What was your mash temp and where you able to hold it?

 

[TeeJayEss]

What was your mash temp and where you able to hold it?

Sorry if I didn't make it clear in the OP, this was an extract recipe. Recipe just called for about 17.5 oz of grains to be steeped and added pre-boil. Followed the recipe on that part - brought water to 170F, added grains, stirred, and then stuck it in a 170F oven for 45 minutes before adding the steeped water to the kettle.

 

[ong]

Lousbrews, looks like it was an extract recipe, so no mash required. Also, this means you almost certainly were close to the desired OG, unless your volumes were off significantly.

My guess is that you're just not a fan of the recipe. The brown sugar is there specifically to thin the body out, and there's not a whole lot of hop action going on.

Do you recall how much cascade you used? Centennial usually has a higher alpha than cascade, so you'd want to use more cascade.

Give it a chance to develop a bit, I would say. If you really don't like the beer, you could dissolve 4 oz maltodextrine in a cup of boiling water, let it cool, and add to your keg. You could also put an oz of cascade (or whatever) in a sanitized hop sock and add that to the keg to provide more hop aroma.

Or you could just drink it and try a different recipe next time!

I don't understand what the strainer was for, though. Were your grains not in a steeping bag?

 

[billl]

Did you sub cascade for centennial 1-for-1? If so, you probably undershot the bitterness. Not a fatal flaw, but it can toss off the balance.

"Thin" is almost assuredly being undercarbed. It's got a completely different feel without carbonation.

You might not want to do 100% distilled water next time - or add some calcium chloride to that water. You don't want overly hard water to brew with, but some level of salts is essential for bringing out the flavor of any food. (and yes, beer is a food)

As for OG - as long as you top up to the recipe level, it is impossible for you to miss your OG. Extract has a known amount of sugar in it. If you add that known amount of sugar to a known amount of water, you will have a known concentration of sugar - eg your target OG.

Overall, congrats! You made beer. If it isn't your favorite... don't worry, there is an easy fix.....brew up another batch with a different recipe! It's a tough job, but someone has to do it. The more you brew, the more you will learn about how different ingredients and amounts taste to you. eg if it isn't hoppy enough for you, try the next recipe with more late addition hops.

 

[peterj]

Everything about your process sounds good to me. And if the recipe was for 5 gallons, as long as you used all of the extract and ended up with 5 gallons after topping off then your OG was probably pretty close to being correct. You can't really miss your OG by very much with extract batches as long as your calculations and volumes are correct.

I would guess that it's probably because it hasn't fully carbonated yet. 5 days at 12psi isn't long enough. I would give it another week at minimum. Carbonation can really change A LOT about a beer.

Another reason could be that maybe you just don't like that recipe. I don't really brew amber ales because they're not really my thing, but from some of the recipes I've seen, that one seems a little bit simple and perhaps lacking. I wouldn't expect it to have a "substantial" hop presence like that description said. And only 1 pound of crystal 80 doesn't seem like it would give you a big malty and caramel character. But I may be wrong; as I said Ambers are not my forte.

Sorry if I didn't make it clear in the OP, this was an extract recipe. Recipe just called for about 17.5 oz of grains to be steeped and added pre-boil. Followed the recipe on that part - brought water to 170F, added grains, stirred, and then stuck it in a 170F oven for 45 minutes before adding the steeped water to the kettle.

Also, when you're steeping you don't really have to maintain the temperature that accurately. All you're doing is basically rinsing out sugars and flavors that are already in the grain. There's no conversion taking place.

Anyway, I hope this helps. And I hope your beer gets better as it fully carbonates and ages!

 

[Yooper]

I think the "blandness" you're describing comes from a malty beer that is undercarbonated still a bit. I think it will improve quite a bit, as the recipe is ok.

How much wort did you boil in your brewpot? I assume you topped up to 5 gallons after the boil (which is fine) but I'm wondering about how much wort you boiled before that.

 

[Mongrel]

Hey y'all,

My very first brew day was about three and a half weeks ago, and I kegged last Saturday (just under 3 weeks in primary). Force carbonating @ 12psi (bit left to go, yet), but I decided to pull half a pint last night just to see how things were progressing. While my beer looks and smells like beer, it's come out very thin, and definitely on the bland side. I'm hoping you guys might be able to help me sort out why that might be, and figure out what I can do differently the next time around.

Set it at 30 PSI for the first day, it will speed things up.

Recipe: Big Red Amber Ale. Extract recipe. Made a basic starter from Wyeast 1056, and then followed the recipe exactly, except: (1) I subbed in Cascade for Centennial, which was out of stock; and (2) I kegged straight from primary, rather than racking to secondary.

Did you use any software to calculate the change in IBU's with the Cascade substitution? Or did you use the same amount the recipe called for? If you don't have Beer Smith yet, I highly recommend it.

Looking over the recipe instructions...forget the oven. Get a grain bag. Steep it on the stove, just keep the bag off the bottom of the pot.

Prep and boil: Diligent PBW + StarSan throughout the process. 2.5 gallon boil (used distilled water), with additions according to the recipe. Learned that 17.5 oz of grains takes up much more volume in a strainer than I would have guessed.

Again, get a grain bag (5 gallon paint strainers work great, and they're cheap). Also, there is no need to PBW+starsan everything prior to boil. PBW works great to clean everything after you brew. So does oxyclean.

After my boil, chilled to about 70F with an immersion chiller, strained, and topped off with cool distilled water (maybe worth noting that I had a pretty good amount of boil-off - had to add around three gallons to bring it up to 5gals). Poured back and forth between my kettle and fermenting bucket to aerate. Unfortunately, my hydrometer sprouted legs and jumped off the table, and I never got an OG reading. I'm guessing at this point that I did not hit the recipe's 1.056 OG, but I don't know for sure.

As long as you got your water right, you'll be pretty much spot on with OG when using extract.

Fermentation: Pitched my starter, sealed the fermenter, popped in my airlock and filled with vodka. Fermented in an 8 gallon plastic bucket, and used an electric heating pad with a Ranco (probe taped to the outside of the bucket under a few layers of bubble wrap) to keep the temp at an even 66 throughout primary. Visible fermentation started after about 36 hours, and visible fermentation had stopped after 7 days. Left it alone except to refill the airlock as needed. Gravity on the two days before kegging and day of was level at 1.015.

I see you're planning on getting an oxygen system, that's good. You want fermentation to kick off faster than 36 hours.

Kegging: Disassembled keg (used 5 gal ball lock corny), cleaned, sanitized, and put on new gaskets. Pressurized and tested for leaks. Autosiphoned onto a bed of CO2. First 80% went smoothly, but then I broke the vacuum and pulled some air in. Tried to restart the siphon but didn't have great room between the beer level and the yeast swamp, so I ended up pulling a bit more air in. Rather than keep oxygenating things, I pulled the siphon, pressurized, and popped it in the freezer to start force carbing (12 psi @ ~38F).

Oxygen is not good at this point, but you'll get the hang of siphoning.

Early Result: So, after about 3.5 weeks after brewday (and 5 days of force carbing), I pulled about half a glass just to see where things stood. It tasted a little flat - not surprising - but what really struck me was how thin and bland it was. The beer's described as "malty," with "a notable caramel note, balanced by a substantial citrus/floral hop flavor and aroma." Suffice it to say, I'm not getting those flavors or aromas - at least not in what I would call "notable" or "substantial" amounts. It's more like a thin, watery brown ale. It's not bad - it doesn't taste spoiled or "off" - it's just... boring.

It's not ready yet.

Is my beer going to hit the gym and bulk up some in the next few weeks, or did I just miss the mark somewhere along the way? I'm going to let it keep doing its thing and see how it ages, but right now I'm having a tough time imagining this beer doing much in the way of self-improvement.

Before my next brew day I'll be making a few changes, like building a DIY stir plate, picking up a diffusion stone/oxygen tank for a little aeration wand, a bigger strainer, and a spare hydrometer (or three). I suspect that missing the OG reading might make it difficult to know for sure what's going on, but does anything about the process seem off? I appreciate any thoughts you guys might have.

In any case, can't wait for my next brewday!

Stir plate and oxygen really help making better beer. Enjoy the obsession

 

[TeeJayEss]

Do you recall how much cascade you used? Centennial usually has a higher alpha than cascade, so you'd want to use more cascade.

I don't remember offhand, but the guy at my LHBS helped me pick the substitute and adjust the amount to hit the right AAU.

Give it a chance to develop a bit, I would say. If you really don't like the beer, you could dissolve 4 oz maltodextrine in a cup of boiling water, let it cool, and add to your keg. You could also put an oz of cascade (or whatever) in a sanitized hop sock and add that to the keg to provide more hop aroma.

Or you could just drink it and try a different recipe next time!

Definitely no plans on dumping the batch or anything. It's not undrinkable by any means, just not very interesting. I'd rather keep drinking it and see how it changes over time than let it go to waste. Next recipe will definitely be something new, but I mainly wanted to make sure that there was nothing inherently off about the process itself that wouldn't be repeated.

I don't understand what the strainer was for, though. Were your grains not in a steeping bag?

Err... of course they were steeping in a grain bag... I've got that on my list of things to get...

Thanks for the input!

 

[TeeJayEss]

Dang, in the time it took me to write one response, a whole bunch more of you chimed in! I really appreciate the responses.

I'll definitely be adding some mesh grain bags before my next brew, and will watch this one to see how it ages. Sounds like letting it fully carbonate ought to make a big difference.

How much wort did you boil in your brewpot? I assume you topped up to 5 gallons after the boil (which is fine) but I'm wondering about how much wort you boiled before that.

Followed the recipe on this one - brewpot started with 2.5 gallons of water. Added the steeped grain water as the kettle heated, and once it was at a rolling boil I took it off the flame, stirred in my LME, and then brought it back to a rolling boil for the rest of the process. Added the rest of the water just prior to aerating.

 

[monsteroyd]

OK, but you boiled ALL the extract in HALF the water and that probably meant that you did NOT get the AA utilization that you were after. Next time, if you are boiling 2.5 gallons add HALF the extract, do your hop boil, then at flame out add the other half and the needed water to make 5 gals. You'll get more use of the hops. By boiling at basically twice the gravity, you probably only got about 1/3 to 1/2 of the normal hops bitter etc.

Just as no extract in water gets very little hop utilization, too much also will limit the utilization. You want the gravity of the boil to be like 1.040-1.050

Monty

EDIT: Remember with extract, all the boiling has been done as far as DMS etc. There is no need to boil extract for an hour like there is with wort from grain. So only add the extract you need to get to that 1.045 mark and do the hop boil then. Add the rest at flame out.

 

[TeeJayEss]

OK, but you boiled ALL the extract in HALF the water and that probably meant that you did NOT get the AA utilization that you were after. Next time, if you are boiling 2.5 gallons add HALF the extract, do your hop boil, then at flame out add the other half and the needed water to make 5 gals. You'll get more use of the hops. By boiling at basically twice the gravity, you probably only got about 1/3 to 1/2 of the normal hops bitter etc.

Just as no extract in water gets very little hop utilization, too much also will limit the utilization. You want the gravity of the boil to be like 1.040-1.050

Monty

EDIT: Remember with extract, all the boiling has been done as far as DMS etc. There is no need to boil extract for an hour like there is with wort from grain. So only add the extract you need to get to that 1.045 mark and do the hop boil then. Add the rest at flame out.

Thanks, Monty. I guess I just assumed that since the recipe called for a partial boil that it would have been adjusted accordingly.

I've got a 10-gallon kettle, I think for my next brew I'll just try full boil instead of bothering with partial.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks, Monty. I guess I just assumed that since the recipe called for a partial boil that it would have been adjusted accordingly.

I've got a 10-gallon kettle, I think for my next brew I'll just try full boil instead of bothering with partial.

A full boil is great- with a couple of caveats. One is that you have to have the burner to boil 6+ gallons of wort. Some people can do it on their kitchen stoves (I can), but others have puny electric stoves. If the stove can't boil 6 gallons of water, then an outdoor burner (like a turkey fryer) might be needed.

The other thing to consider is chilling. It's easy to chill 2.5 gallons of water in the sink in an ice bath, and then add 2.5 gallons of water to further cool it. Unless you're pretty hulk-like, it's hard to do with a 10 gallon pot. I do have a friend who does it- he lifts a pot of 5 gallons of boiling wort and plops it into a cooler with 40 pounds of ice. I cringe when I see him do it, but he's a big strapping guy and he seems to never have burned himself yet. Most people who do a full boil have a wort chiller or some way to cool 5 gallons of boiling wort.

If you can manage it, the beer will be better for it, though!

 

[TeeJayEss]

A full boil is great- with a couple of caveats. One is that you have to have the burner to boil 6+ gallons of wort. Some people can do it on their kitchen stoves (I can), but others have puny electric stoves. If the stove can't boil 6 gallons of water, then an outdoor burner (like a turkey fryer) might be needed.

The other thing to consider is chilling. It's easy to chill 2.5 gallons of water in the sink in an ice bath, and then add 2.5 gallons of water to further cool it. Unless you're pretty hulk-like, it's hard to do with a 10 gallon pot. I do have a friend who does it- he lifts a pot of 5 gallons of boiling wort and plops it into a cooler with 40 pounds of ice. I cringe when I see him do it, but he's a big strapping guy and he seems to never have burned himself yet. Most people who do a full boil have a wort chiller or some way to cool 5 gallons of boiling wort.

If you can manage it, the beer will be better for it, though!

Thanks for the input! I just opted to follow the recipe pretty strictly my first time around while I familiarized myself with the process. I've already got a 10-gallon kettle, propane burner, and an immersion chiller, so I think I'm set on the basics.

Set it at 30 PSI for the first day, it will speed things up.

What about doing something like that once it's been hanging out at 12psi for six days (presumably at something less than 30psi, given the partial carbonation)? I've heard that suggestion before (or that plus rolling the keg around for a bit and then popping it back in the fridge disconnected from the CO2 to let it settle, to force carb in 24-48 hours), and am wishing that I'd given it a try.

 

[lousbrews]

Lousbrews, looks like it was an extract recipe, so no mash required. Also, this means you almost certainly were close to the desired OG, unless your volumes were off significantly.

My guess is that you're just not a fan of the recipe. The brown sugar is there specifically to thin the body out, and there's not a whole lot of hop action going on.

Do you recall how much cascade you used? Centennial usually has a higher alpha than cascade, so you'd want to use more cascade.

Give it a chance to develop a bit, I would say. If you really don't like the beer, you could dissolve 4 oz maltodextrine in a cup of boiling water, let it cool, and add to your keg. You could also put an oz of cascade (or whatever) in a sanitized hop sock and add that to the keg to provide more hop aroma.

Or you could just drink it and try a different recipe next time!

I don't understand what the strainer was for, though. Were your grains not in a steeping bag?

Ha oops.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the input! I just opted to follow the recipe pretty strictly my first time around while I familiarized myself with the process. I've already got a 10-gallon kettle, propane burner, and an immersion chiller, so I think I'm set on the basics.



What about doing something like that once it's been hanging out at 12psi for six days (presumably at something less than 30psi, given the partial carbonation)? I've heard that suggestion before (or that plus rolling the keg around for a bit and then popping it back in the fridge disconnected from the CO2 to let it settle, to force carb in 24-48 hours), and am wishing that I'd given it a try.

Sure, why not? Turn up the regulator to 30 psi tonight, and then purge and reset at 12 psi tomorrow morning. That should "jump start" and finish off the carbonation. You don't want to go longer than about 12 hours at this point, or you'd have foamy overcarbed beer and that would be worse than waiting another two or three days at the current setting!

 

[pablosbrewing]

What about doing something like that once it's been hanging out at 12psi for six days

Depends what temperature you were at for the 6 days @ 12 PSI. I use a chart to help:

http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

 

[Puddlethumper]

I'm thinking this just may be a beer that doesn't fit your palette. A couple of things struck me in reading the previous posts: 1.) Don't use distilled water for much of anything in brewing (except to make your StarSan last longer.) Good RO or spring water has the minerals, etc. the yeast needs to make good beer. Distilled water doesn't have much of anything in it. 2) Try a different recipe next time. You just may find that you get completely different results with a different mix of grains/hops.

 

[peterj]

By boiling at basically twice the gravity, you probably only got about 1/3 to 1/2 of the normal hops bitter etc.

EDIT: Remember with extract, all the boiling has been done as far as DMS etc. There is no need to boil extract for an hour like there is with wort from grain. So only add the extract you need to get to that 1.045 mark and do the hop boil then. Add the rest at flame out.

I agree with this method of adding the extract late. That is a good practice to get into because of the darkening and flavor changes that can come from boiling such high gravity wort.

But I don't think the gravity from malt extract has nearly that much of an effect on hop utilization. The main effect that increased gravity has on hop utilization comes from the iso-alpha acids adhering to grain dust and proteins and stuff and falling out of solution with them. But this is mainly a concern in all grain brewing and isn't really happening with extract because all of the grain dust and a lot of the proteins have already been removed during the processing. You're definitely not getting a 1/2 to 2/3 reduction in hop utilization from increased gravity even with all grain brewing.

You do have to watch out when you're trying to make a highly hopped beer with a partial boil method. Because wort can only physically hold around 100 IBU (maybe less), if you're diluting that by half with water (0 IBU) the maximum IBU beer you can get from a half boil is 50 IBU. So if you're doing a beer that you want to have more than about 40-50 IBU, you should probably do a full boil or at least more than a half boil. This beer probably did reach that max, so I don't really know if you got the full 46 IBU, but it probably wasn't too far off.

Also, distilled water is fine to use with extract beers because the extract producers should have had the correct amount of minerals in their water, and those will still be in the extract and therefore in the wort when you reconstitute it.

 

[peterj]

Also, if it were me, I wouldn't try to speed up the carbonation now by putting it up to 30 psi. That's fine when you first keg it, but now I would be too worried about overcarbing it. But I only recently started kegging and maybe I'm just being a little over cautious. I will definitely defer to Yooper on this one because she absolutely knows way more than me!

 

[pablosbrewing]

Good RO or spring water has the minerals, etc. the yeast needs to make good beer.

RO has no minerals, and you can't tell what is in a given spring water unless you can get a report.

For extract brewing, all needed mineral adjustments were done by the extract manufacturer at mash time.

 

[pablosbrewing]

(12 psi @ ~38F).

Curious if that is your serving temp. Check this article out - I run my American and British ales at 45-50F keg temp - it makes a big difference.
http://www.ratebeer.com/Story.asp?StoryID=479

 

[TeeJayEss]

Curious if that is your serving temp. Check this article out - I run my American and British ales at 45-50F keg temp - it makes a big difference.
http://www.ratebeer.com/Story.asp?StoryID=479

Pablosbrewing, I'm going to bump my fridge up to 48-50 before serving. In the future I'll probably cold crash and then carb at serving temp.

Everyone else: Pulled another half pint last night (eight days carbonating) and just the extra few days made a world of difference. It's improving by leaps and bounds the closer it gets to fully carbonated. Still not a huge fan of the flavor palette, but very excited to see where this goes with a bit more age.

Thanks for all your advice and feedback, you've all been a huge help!