First all grain efficiency issues

[mhochman]

Did my first all grain last week. Without getting too detailed, my efficiency appears to have been about 65%. I realize this is low. I'm not bothered since this was my first all grain batch, so I know I'll improve. This was a pliny clone so it will come in a bit weak (relatively speaking) and the balance may be off slightly. I'm coming to you guys for help in improving.

1. According to my notes, when I took my mash temp at 30 minutes, the temp was down to 145 (from 150, which is my target and I hit perfectly). But then I realized that the temp was different if I probed at the top of the mash vs the bottom, and was really in the range of 140-148. So my questions are:
-Where should I take the temp? Dead center? The bottom? The top?
-I added some hot water (only 160, now I know to keep hotter water on the stove) and that brought it up slightly. If this were to happen next time, should I work harder to bring the temp back to the desired level and then mash longer? What I mean is, if 140 is too low, should I not count that as part of the 60 minute mash since the desired conversions aren't taking place?
-Do you think this temp issue was my main issue? It sat below 150 for about 15 minutes, meaning it was only at desired temp (as taken in the center of the mash) for about 45 minutes.

2. I realized when I was all done that I didn't control my mash to kettle speed at all. I ran it very slowly at first to vorlauf (sp?), but once it was clear I kind of just let it run freely. When I reviewed directions AFTER the brew session, I was reminded of the warnings to keep everything flowing (sparge as well) at a slow rate. Could this have caused part of the problem too?

I realize I didn't offer ingredients, exact process (batch sparge, etc.), vessels, etc., but I'm really suspecting the two items above as my "problem."

As a side note, this was my first stir plate and, holy crap, did that fermentation take off and last a long time. Could that also have been the result of all grain and no "extract" in the wort?

Thanks all.

 

[mcaple1]

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[beerkrump]

What are you using as a mash tun?

Are you fly or batch sparging?

If you have fermentation, you had conversion.

And, +1 to stir plate starters.

 

[mhochman]

What are you using as a mash tun?

Are you fly or batch sparging?

If you have fermentation, you had conversion.

And, +1 to stir plate starters.

Batch sparged using a 10 gallon rubbermaid cooler set up. I know I converted, but I didn't convert *enough*. Expected OG is 1.071 and I got 1.060. Pre-boil gravity was 1.050, with an expected pre-boil of 1.059.

I also lost a lot of wort to all those hops and had to top off with water. That could have diluted it some, I realize.

 

[mhochman]

Any thoughts anyone?

 

[Yooper]

First, preheat your MLT and you shouldn't get such a temperature drop. It works great if you put 175 degree strike water (or even hotter, if your strike temperature is 167+) and then let that sit until you are at your strike temperature. That will help you hold your strike temperature.

Also, if you have different temperatures in the mash, you didn't stir enough! Stir like it's your job- check the temperature in several places. If it's different, stir again. The MLT shouldn't be closed up until the temperature is stabilized and equal, which might take several minutes of stirring. After that, no need to open/stir again unless you really want to check the temperature mid-mash. But if you preheated the MLT, and stirred until the temperature was equalized, you won't lose more than 1 degree an hour.

Your mash time is the time you were mashed in, regardless of temperature fluctuations. In mash at 156-158, you can get conversion in 20-40 minutes. In a mash at 147-149, you might need 90 minutes. But if you go from 154 to 150, that's still part of the "timing" if that makes sense.

For batch sparging, the beauty of it is the speed. If you're batch sparging, dump in the water, stir like a madman, vorlauf, and drain completely as fast as it will go, and repeat.

I don't understand the last question, sorry!

 

[Yooper]

Batch sparged using a 10 gallon rubbermaid cooler set up. I know I converted, but I didn't convert *enough*. Expected OG is 1.071 and I got 1.060. Pre-boil gravity was 1.050, with an expected pre-boil of 1.059.

I also lost a lot of wort to all those hops and had to top off with water. That could have diluted it some, I realize.

Topping off with water will of course make a huge difference. Next time, start with more wort from the mash/sparge to make up the difference.

 

[jborho]

I am worried about your mash temp, and with the hot spots. From what I understand and have always done, stir well. Meaning, bring the bottom of the mash up from the bottom to the top and back down again with your paddle. If your using a cooler set up, you shouldn't get hot spots like that. I take my temps in several areas and depths. Too hot of a mash can lead to a lot of issues... too cold and you don't get conversion. but above all RDWHAHB

 

[pkeeler]

Knowing how to hit your temp. with your set up is just something that takes some practice. You can try pre-heating the tun; or put your water in 3-4 deg. hotter than your strike temp. If you see your temp is low, you can raise it or let it go longer or just ignore it. Unless you are using a lot of munich malt or a lot of non-base malts, it will probably convert well before 60 minutes.

Diluting will lower your OG. It really doesn't effect efficiency. What affects that would be the lower volume in the fermenter.

No reason to run off slowly when batch sparging.

Expected OG is 1.071 and I got 1.060. Pre-boil gravity was 1.050, with an expected pre-boil of 1.059.

So, you were expecting 75% efficiency? Check your system for wort losses, always a big area for new AG brewers. If you are leaving a quart in your system, that is a big loss. Also, make sure you are collecting enough wort, sounds like you didn't use enough water.

 

[SnallygasterBrewery]

+1 to getting a really good dough in -- this way you don't end up with spots that don't get the H20 treatment as good as they should.

Slow wort movement during vorlauf (like you did) to set the bed well, then you can pick up the pace a bit (in the mean time you can clean/sanitize/drink another beer) when you go to run into the kettle.

Also, what's your grain crushing situation like?

 

[Bobby_M]

When you added your sparge water, did you stir it in really well also?

 

[mhochman]

First, thanks to everyone who responded. Lots of good things to think about and try next time. To answer some of your questions:

First, I went back and re-read the last question in my op (I had to read it twice to figure out what I meant). All I was asking there is, is it typical for an all grain batch to experience a quicker and/or more aggressive fermentation than we see in a typical extract batch.

So having read through the responses, it's pretty clear my biggest issue was my dough in. I *definitely* did not stir enough. In fact, I remember thinking not to stir too much because in my mind that meant I'd lose heat. That's true for the strike water and sparge water. So that's definitely an area for me to work on. I also need a new mash paddle. The dinky plastic one I used for partial mashes was bending too much in all that grain.

I did preheat the mast tun, but only with 170 degree water. I've read to preheat with boiling water, so I'll try that next time.

If all that doesn't help, in the next batch I'll try to raise my strike temp a few degrees from what the software says.

Lastly, regarding grain crush, this was a kit from AHS, so whatever their generic crush is is what I got. I don't have a grain mill and don't plan to get one any time soon. If all of the above doesn't help I can always ask my vendor to crush a little finer, I suppose.

Thanks again, everyone.

 

[Yooper]

First, thanks to everyone who responded. Lots of good things to think about and try next time. To answer some of your questions:

First, I went back and re-read the last question in my op (I had to read it twice to figure out what I meant). All I was asking there is, is it typical for an all grain batch to experience a quicker and/or more aggressive fermentation than we see in a typical extract batch.

So having read through the responses, it's pretty clear my biggest issue was my dough in. I *definitely* did not stir enough. In fact, I remember thinking not to stir too much because in my mind that meant I'd lose heat. That's true for the strike water and sparge water. So that's definitely an area for me to work on. I also need a new mash paddle. The dinky plastic one I used for partial mashes was bending too much in all that grain.

I did preheat the mast tun, but only with 170 degree water. I've read to preheat with boiling water, so I'll try that next time.

If all that doesn't help, in the next batch I'll try to raise my strike temp a few degrees from what the software says.

Lastly, regarding grain crush, this was a kit from AHS, so whatever their generic crush is is what I got. I don't have a grain mill and don't plan to get one any time soon. If all of the above doesn't help I can always ask my vendor to crush a little finer, I suppose.

Thanks again, everyone.

AG or extract doesn't matter as far as fermentation is concerned.

For preheating the MLT, if it's a cooler, don't use boiling water! You can go up to 180 though without a problem. Over 180 you can get cracking and/or warping. I know from experience.

Next time, stir like it's your job. That should make a huge different. AHS' crush is pretty decent- I always got about 68% with it. You can look at it, and see if it looks good. All the grains are crushed but not shredded and it just looks like a good crush, if that makes sense. If there are lots of whole grains that aren't cracked, then it's a poor crush.

 

[mhochman]

AG or extract doesn't matter as far as fermentation is concerned.

For preheating the MLT, if it's a cooler, don't use boiling water! You can go up to 180 though without a problem. Over 180 you can get cracking and/or warping. I know from experience.

Next time, stir like it's your job. That should make a huge different. AHS' crush is pretty decent- I always got about 68% with it. You can look at it, and see if it looks good. All the grains are crushed but not shredded and it just looks like a good crush, if that makes sense. If there are lots of whole grains that aren't cracked, then it's a poor crush.

The crush did look good. I didn't see anything not crushed. According to my software, I got 64.7%. If you're getting 68% and you know what you're doing, I guess I did pretty well! I know there's always room for improvement, which is why I'm so appreciative of the advice here. Glad you warned me about the boiling water in the plastic cooler. That would have been embarrassing. I can hear it now: "Honey, why I are you buying a second giant cooler that we don't have room for?"

 

[mhochman]

Hi all. Sorry to take up this old thread, but I'm in the middle of all grain brew day 2 and I thought I'd update you now that I'm up to the boil. I forgot to pre-heat the cooler (which I had done last time), but I stirred like hell and took the temp all over the mash. I was exactly at 150 (target) and did a quick temp check halfway, still at 150. At 60 minutes I took off the lid and did a temp check just to see if it maintained, and sure enough, still at 150! I did wrap the cooler with a towel just to give a small layer of extra insulation. So I took my hydro reading and... expected pre-boil gravity: 1.045. ACTUAL pre-boil grav: 1.046! According to Beer Alchemy, that's 76.5%! Needless to say, I'm thrilled right now. Just wanted to thank you all again.

 

[beerkrump]

Hooray!!!

 

[Patirck]

I'll chime in with a few things. However, full disclosure - I started doing all grain about 22 batches ago and still have wild swings in efficiency - between 50% and 80%. Having said that, the one thing that I have learned is to dough in much slower than I think is really necessary. I put the crushed grains in a plastic bucket and sprinkle them in the mash water while gently splashing the water back and forth. It takes a full 2 - 4 minutes to dough in this way. You end up with much more saturated mash but you also need to do in a few degrees warmer than the calculation says because the storing and the time will cause some heat loss.

Another thing to consider is ph of water going in. Are you using tap water? Filtered water? Bottled water? A lot of tap water is fairly high ph - higher than what should be used for brewing.

 

[mhochman]

My software predicted an OG of .048, but the recipe (an AHS kit) called for .051. My OG=1.051. Couldn't be happier.