Fermentability of DME vs LME

[nsean]

Hello;

I have a current beer that I have been having difficulties getting to the target FG, it got stuck at 1.03 down from 1.054, I repitched yeast and have got it down to ~1.025, so I am getting progression.

It is an IPA with the following recipe and used WLP 001

UK Carastan Malt 8.00 oz
US Flaked Rye 4.00 oz
Canadian Honey Malt (Gambrinus) 4.00 oz
Extract - Light Dried Malt Extract 5lb 8oz Start Of Boil
Sugar - Candi Sugar Pale 1lb 10oz End Of Boil


My question is: Is there a difference between the fermentability of LME vs DME. From the website that I got my ingredients I found that they list the fermentability of

LME: min. 78 % to 81 %
DME: 70 to 75 %

Reading these charts am I correct in assuming that the LME will ferment better than the DME. It is the first time I used DME as the primary extract, and would like to know if it is just a coincidence that my fermentation is stuck, or if in the future I should use LME instead.

Thanks;
Sean

 

[jonmohno]

How long has it been since brew day? Did temps get below the yeast fermenting range? What is carastan malt?

 

[theredben]

Which yeast did you use?

 

[nsean]

It has been about 4 weeks now, I think. Fermentation has stayed over 70 the entire time. Carastan is a crystal malt.

The fermentation went normally at first, dropped to 1.03 in 3 or 4 days, then nothing for another week. I then stirred it a couple times over the course of the next few days and waited another week. Friday I transfered to a glass carboy, so I could see if anything was happening instead of lifting the bung, repitched with 14g of dry yeast, and have been getting some slow bubbling.

I guess a 5 point drop in 2.5 days isn't bad, I just am trying to figure out what to expect for a FG.

 

[nsean]

Yeast: WLP 001 for initial - it did expire in Nov or Dec, but I did a 1.5L starter.

Second yeast was 2 packs of Coopers Ale Yeast.

 

[nsean]

The reason I am really trying to figure out what happened is because I am brewing again this weekend, with the same DME, and would like to know if the DME is the problem, or if my yeast just gave up. If the DME is the problem I can get LME instead.

 

[devilishprune]

Maybe it has to do with the difference in gravity contributions between the two?

DME adds more gravity per pound than LME, so if you used the same weight of them it would make sense that LME would ferment to a lower gravity (less unfermentables, etc.). However, if they mean that for some reason at the same gravity LME would still ferment more, I don't have an answer for you.

It sounds to me like your yeast gave up. Plenty of people use extract on here and they seem to get their gravities below that number. The times that I used it all of my beers stopped at around 1.020, so it's possible to get below 1.030 using DME.

What brand are you using?

 

[nsean]

It is United Canadian Malt Ltd

I too am thinking it is just the yeast. Anyone with experience re-pitching in a similar case? Does it just progress slowly, or is there often a fairly rapid take off like primary fermentation?

 

[unionrdr]

Well,according to the percentages,DME ferments out a little less than LME. I used LME as my primary malt (1.7kg can) vs. 3lbs (about 1.4kg) of plain extra light DME.
But just like the straight up Cooper's lager kit,neither one FG'd below 1.012. I used Cooper's brewing sugar with the OS lager kit,got an OG of 1.048. That's 5.3%ABV. Color/flavor is great. See my post in extract brewing "my 1st brew in the glass" for a pic of that one.
My next is dry hoping now (the one with LME/DME mix). Just the 2 types of malt,1oz Kent Golding (4.5%AAU)15 min hop tea,with 1oz Willamette (4.7%AAU) dry hop for 7 days. It started life with an OG of 1.044 (no added sugars) with an FG nearly 3 weeks later of 1.012 again. That's 4.8%ABV. I'm not real worried,as my 1st effort is a nice light golden with a bit of amber. And tastes like an English,malt-forward pale ale.

 

[nilo]

Here's some real data for all batches I used extract, mostly a mix of LME and DME, showing I always got good attenuation and never a FG higher than 1.018.
I however used mostly Muntons extract, so fermentability may depend on the brand also.
Yeast strain and color of extract are another variables that needs to be conssidered, but for the sake of saying whether a LME ferments better than a DME, there is only one way, testing it side by side.
I have few tests in my mind that I want to do and this could be added to the list:
-Test fermentability of Carapils (GRAIN)
-Test fermentability of dextrin powder
-Test fermentability of lactose
-Test fermentability of LME x DME

Testing LME x DME is simple, make 1gal batches of each (same color as possible) by boiling just the extract with water, no extra grain or hops or anything, let ferment with same yeast in a controlled chamber and see what attenuation you get. Repeat the test few times to make sure you got reliable data.

 

[unionrdr]

That's interesting your OG's are higher,my FG's are a bit lower. If it matters,I used Cooper's canned LME,& Munton's plain extra light SDME in my latest brew. OG was 1.044,FG is 1.012.
When I did the Cooper's lager kit with nothing more than 1kg of their brewing sugar,OG was 1.048,Fg was 1.012,again. It seems the brewing sugar gave a higher OG than the all malt & no sugar batch at 1.044. Even though both finished at 1.012.

 

[nsean]

Well I actually just started a little experiment.

It is time to start my starter for this weekend's planned brew session, and as it turns out, the 6oz of DME in my 1.5L starter put me at ~1.04 (didn't measure gravity, as I'm not too concerned about SG). I am using a different yeast, WLP-022, which has a slightly lower attenuation than WLP-001, but fairly close.

Since I pitched the entire vial into 1.5L there should be a high yeast level, so I should be able to determine if the fermentability of the extract is acceptable.

Just for the record a SG of 1.04 is approximately the same as the gravity contributed by the DME in the beer I am currently trying to ferment.

 

[nsean]

This is the response i got from the company:

There most definitely is a difference between Liquid Malt Extract and Dried – particularly with the Brewer’s Pale and our dried malt extract.
DME is manufactured first as an Extract of Malted Barley that is non-diastatic and with our standard LME 100 brewing procedure. This extract is then spray dried to the powder form. The mash brewing procedure for this is optimized for syrup quality, yield, and colours of 7-14 EBC. The drying, because of heat and mechanical processes, affects the fermentables by caramelization along with some DP degradation. UCML does not recommend that you use this DME strictly as the sole source of fermentables in you beer wort. This product is great as an adjunct to improve or increase the head characteristics or the body of a beer. DME will not fully ferment out although your 50% attenuation seems unusully high. You should get to about 1.020 – 1.024 range (assuming you started at about 1.045). UCML has not had any complaints on our DME for the last 12 month period but our users are food, pharmaceutical and brewing customers (who use it as an adjunct and not as the sole malt source). There is (was?) a British dried malt extract that could be used as the prime source of malt fermentables. It was a vacuum band dried product that had different characteristics than UCML’s spray dried DME. There were kits available on the british market that were 100% dried product.
UCML’s pale Brewer’s Malt Extract is mashed, extracted and concentrated to provide the best balance for beer fermentation with the extract’s carbohydrate profile, colour (3.5 – 6 EBC), low heat process manufacturing, and yield. There is a significant difference in the fermentability between the DME and the LME products.



So it looks like their DME just is not designed to be used as the primary extract.