Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[RPh_Guy]

1) 15 min boil is fine.

2) 1-2 capsules is good, 10-20 is overkill. FYI It's possible to open the capsules without touching the contents.

3) The Lacto souring is self-limiting and hops are optional.

4) I would add hops and fruit at the same time, right when fermention completes, assuming it's sour at that point.

 

[fendersrule]

Remember though that my capsules are 10 CFU each....making 2x 5 gallon batches soon. Prob need to pitch 10x in each one?

I typically add fruit right after the krausen starts to fall down (fermentation slows)....got an amazing fruit flavor last time!

Sounds like it will be easy enough to draw a sample right before fruit goes in to check PH.

I will pre-sour as well. I "think" that helps with head retention...

 

[RPh_Guy]

1-2 is good. Feel free to pitch more if it would make you comfortable.

It's best to add fruit right when fermentation is finishing up. You retain more of the esters because less CO2 is released while the fruit is present. This is the same reason why (non-sour) beers are dry hopped.

 

[fendersrule]

You said I underpitched here though....

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...t-how-to-assure-that-i-will-have-head.675158/

Or, is pre-pitching vs co-pitching use different rates?

 

[RPh_Guy]

For kettle souring you want it to sour quickly (i.e. within 24 hours) because the risk of contamination is so high. When co-souring there's not so much rush; the bacteria are free to work over a few days without concern.

When kettle souring, there's no agitation (and bacterial cells are non-motile), so bacteria growth and acid production is inefficient. When co-souring, the yeast fermentation accelerates the souring by moving the bacteria all throughout the wort, increasing their access to nutrients and evenly distributing their toxic byproducts (lactic acid).

 

[fendersrule]

Gotcha. That's a good point.

 

[onpointbrewing]

See my most recent post above.
There's no limit to what you can make by adding flavor from malt, yeast, hops, or adjuncts. Would suggestions for ingredients be helpful? Or just like "here's a Gose recipe"?

Thanks - I'll check these out. If there is a particular style that would be easier to execute (or harder), that might be helpful to know.

Voss gives a really strong fresh orange + orange marmalade flavor when you hold it at 95°F (35°C). It doesn't reach its potential at lower temps from what I've heard.

Yeah, you're right. Although, with an under pitch, I think those flavors can be achieved at lower temps. I use a Voss a lot in all other styles. It pairs well with fruity hops in pale ales and IPAs, and I've made an imperial stout with it as well that was really nice with the orange flavor component. Typically I ferment at or above 95F, but in this case I was concerned about that being too high for the L. plantarum. I think I already know your answer, but can I ferment at or above 95F and not worry about effecting growth/acid production?

Initially I had concerns about using Voss (or any Kveik strain) in lower gravity beers, after hearing anecdotal evidence of stalling. I have found that if I use double the recommended amount of yeast nutrient, oxygenate, and pitch an entire package of Voss (I use Omega, haven't tried Imperial yet), then it's not a problem.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If there is a particular style that would be easier to execute (or harder), that might be helpful to know.

Sour beers with a clean yeast are "easiest" because you can just co-pitch.
If you want increased yeast flavor, post-souring is better, but mildly more complicated because you'll want to make a buffered starter (easier than it sounds) and add the bacteria after maybe 1-2 days.
If you want to throw Brett into the mix, things do get a little trickier, but nothing about it is difficult IMO.

can I ferment at or above 95F and not worry about effecting growth/acid production?

L. plantarum and probably most Lacto species generally ferment fastest around 98°F, human body temperature. Remember they happily live inside us (they are enteric bacteria) and consequently they are best adapted for that.

This species will become inhibited if you push it too far over 100 though.

Cheers

 

[fendersrule]

One other question: I prefer to pre-acidify prior to the short boil. Is this OK?

To also confirm, pre-acidification is landing around 4.5ph.

 

[RPh_Guy]

One other question: I prefer to pre-acidify prior to the short boil. Is this OK?

To also confirm, pre-acidification is landing around 4.5ph.

That's probably fine. There are theoretical concerns about DMS with short boils and low pH but it doesn't seem to be problem.

4.0-4.5 is the target for pre-acidification.

 

[deeve007]

I've got a new one... (@RPh_Guy? )...

My current gose fermenting, used the co-pitch method with Smanson L. plantarum tabs, which I had great results in a previous gose with. But after 5 days of fermenting it's really not that sour at all, so I'm wondering if it's possible to add more in the fermenter now? Or if not now (I've read it needs sugars) then with the fruit in secondary?

Anyone have any idea if this would work at all?

Thanks.

 

[RPh_Guy]

My current gose fermenting, used the co-pitch method with Smanson L. plantarum tabs, which I had great results in a previous gose with. But after 5 days of fermenting it's really not that sour at all, so I'm wondering if it's possible to add more in the fermenter now? Or if not now (I've read it needs sugars) then with the fruit in secondary?

That's a bummer. Let's see if we can figure out what went wrong.

Zero hops in the wort/beer, right? (e.g. you didn't re-pitch yeast cake/slurry from a dry hopped batch or something?)
Temp > 65°F?
Lacto capsules opened and added straight to wort at pitch temp?
How old are the capsules?
Are you storing them refrigerated?

Adding more plantarum is fine, and it would still probably sour ... but not if there are hops present or if the Lacto capsules you have are dead. Those are pretty much the only reasons it would fail to sour.

 

[fendersrule]

I don't see why it wouldn't hurt. I would want to tend to do the same thing if mine wasn't sour enough. 5 days for L. Planatrium seems like it would have already flat-lined. My copitch sour is now on day 3 of active fermentation (day 4 of pitch), and I was planning on adding fruit today, but from the airlock activity (still bustlin') I'm considering to wait until tomorrow to add fruit and to measure PH. I'll take a PH measurement then, and see if I would have the same question as you.

BTW, I've been fermenting at 65-67F.

 

[deeve007]

No hops, new yeast, and did all as you outline (same as previous sour & gose that worked great), but capsules not stored in fridge as didn't realise... I do have another bottle unopened (though also not stored in fridge), would pitching in some from that bottle be better?

 

[RPh_Guy]

My copitch sour is now on day 3 of active fermentation

It should taste sour at this point.

 

[fendersrule]

I do not store my L Plantarum in fridge either. They are not all that old, less than a year.

RPh, I'm starting to get scared and considering to check the PH level of one of the carboys now. My fiance and I love a GOOD sour (not slightly sour), but we don't want to to be so sour that it's undrinkable. Should I check the PH now even though fermentation is still pretty active, or do you think I'm good to wait until tomorrow to check? We're targeting 3.3Ph (maximum), but probably wouldn't mind 3.25Ph.

 

[deeve007]

I do not store my L Plantarum in fridge either. They are not all that old, less than a year.

Mine was also opened less than 6 months ago.

 

[fendersrule]

If you can get your hands on some new L Planaturm capsules, you should re-pitch with your fruit additions. That's the best thing you can do. The next best thing you can do is to repitch, maybe try a couple more in addition with your fruit. Worst comes to worse you'll have a fruit beer that isn't sour. Nothing wrong with that either.

 

[RPh_Guy]

No hops, and did all as you outline (same as previous sour & gose), but capsules not stored in fridge as didn't realise... I do have another bottle unopened (though also not stored in fridge), would pitching in some from that bottle be better?

I would add more from both bottles and hope for the best, unless you happen to be out shopping and can get some more (e.g. GoodBelly or Renew Life).

Rehydrate the Lacto powder in some warm chlorine-free water for 10 minutes before adding it.

Should I check the PH now even though fermentation is still pretty active, or do you think I'm good to wait until tomorrow to check? We're targeting 3.3Ph.

I don't personally monitor pH at all but you're welcome to do so. This may be the first time I've heard anyone have dead Swanson's Lacto, so I wouldn't worry too much.

My fermenters all have spigots, so if I'm feeling curious I can just drain an ounce into a tasting glass. I often taste my beer/etc at various points throughout fermentation. It's a good way to learn and monitor for issues.

FYI I use Renew Life ultimate flora probiotic blend stored in the fridge and the capsules are good for a very long time, well past the expiration date.

 

[fendersrule]

The problem is my spigot on my bucket fermenters is that they are too low so it draws in yeast lol. I told the HBS to please drill more than an inch higher. For me, I have to pretty much take off the lids (pain in the ass).

As long as you think I won't be over-souring, them maybe I'll wait until tomorrow to check. Has anyone gotten "too sour" with the co-pitch method?

Maybe I can "tilt" the bucket enough to fill up a little shot glass to avoid yeast, rather than pulling the lid off. No guarantee that would work and the lid would probably have to come off in order to take a pull measure.

 

[deeve007]

Cool, so it seems like at the very least it "can't hurt", which is enough to give it a go. Thanks guys!!

 

[RPh_Guy]

As long as you think I won't be over-souring, them maybe I'll wait until tomorrow to check. Has anyone gotten "too sour" with the co-pitch method?

The souring is self-limiting because they stop producing acid when the pH drops to around 3.1-3.3.

Do you use RO water?

The problem is my spigot on my bucket fermenters is that they are too low so it draws in yeast lol. I told the HBS to please drill more than an inch higher. For me, I have to pretty much take off the lids (pain in the ass).

That sucks.
If you're in the market I'd highly recommend a Fermonster with a rotating spigot.

You could also work on limiting the trub that goes into the fermenter. If you put only clear wort into the fermenter there will be virtually no sediment.

Cool, so it seems like at the very least it "can't hurt", which is enough to give it a go. Thanks guys!!

Good luck!

I need to do some Lacto experiments. One will be to see which Lacto products can continue to sour after the yeast fermentation completes. I know Renew Life does, but not sure about others.

 

[fendersrule]

@RPh_Guy

I pulled a sample using the spigot. Didn't pick up any yeast.

I use tap water, treated.

PH: 3.79, starting from 4.25 from pre-acidification.

It tastes good and clean for a green beer, definitely a hint of clean sour in there, but not near enough yet.

It's definitely souring, just at a slow rate. Considering to throw more capsules in when fruit goes in.

I could remove the "burpers" and drop some more bugs in it right now in the meantime since fermentation is still active.

Options:

1) Relax and have a homebrew. It will continue to sour.

2) Immediately remove burpers and drop 2x capsules in each fermenter. It's still active fermentation, so it will help jump start it more.

3) Add 2x more capsules along with fruit, which will go in today or tomorrow.

4) Do all of the above.

5) Do only 1 and 3.

I just looked at the calendar and want to make a small correction. I co-pitched on Sunday at 7PM. Fermentation didn't start until 4PM the next day (Monday). So today (Wednesday) actually marks not even 2 full days of active fermentation. Sorry, my days are getting mixed up.

 

[fendersrule]

@RPh_Guy ?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Does "burper" mean airlock? I would do either 1 or 2. Pitching more Lacto certainly wouldn't hurt.

 

[fendersrule]

Yeah, airlock. After 2 days, I guess it should be lower in PH huh.

It is indeed working, just very slow!

Just added 20 CFUs to each carboy.

Will add fruit tomorrow, so I'll check the PH then.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I honestly don't have a good idea of what the pH "should" be after nearly 3 days when co-souring, especially with pre-acidification.

FWIW all the co-sours and post-sours I've done (that I've tested) all finish around 3.3 within a few days, fermented within 65-70°F beer temperature.

The probiotic I use

only has 12 billion Lacto cells. If we assume that the 7 different species all have the same number of cells and that L. plantarum does the bulk of the work, that's only 3.4 billion cells I'm pitching for a 5 gal co-sour (total from 2 caps).

I haven't tested all the different L plantarum products, but based on reports, I don't have any reason to believe other products would behave any worse with similar pitch rates.
3.79 does seem rather high at this point, just guessing. Did you calibrate the meter before taking the measurement?
Perhaps you're also seeing an effect from poor storage conditions. I've heard the viability for dry Lacto decreases fairly rapidly at room temperature.

Sorry you guys missed the comment in the first post about refrigeration.

 

[fendersrule]

I've calibrated it fairly recently, only about 3-4 uses since.

I've stored mine at a 66-68F location (pantry).

Like I mentioned, it's definitely working since my PH dropped nearly .5, but it probably needed some additional pitching. Perhaps half-life as you mentioned is lower due to room-storage.

Mine is 10 Billion CFU per capsule, Swanson brand.

Timeline so far:

Sunday 7:00pm: Copitch, 64-65F wort temp. PH level: 4.25
Monday 4:00pm: Signs of fermentation happening. 65F
Tuesday: Fermentation on full, 66-67F
Wednesday: Fermentation still primarily on full, 66-67F. Checked PH at 2PM @ 3.79.

Probably a good chance she will be ready for fruit (going Peach in one, and Blackberries in other one) by late Thursday.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I've calibrated it fairly recently, only about 3-4 uses since.

A pH meter needs to be calibrated within 8-12 hours before use for accurate readings because the reading can drift pretty significantly depending on the meter, the state of the probe, and the storage conditions.

it's definitely working since my PH dropped nearly .5

Other factors "muddy the waters" a bit.
Yeast lowers the pH directly, and the presence of CO2 also lowers the pH. It's normal for pH to drop during yeast fermentation.

 

[fendersrule]

That may be, but my taste buds didn't lie as it's only lightly sour.

I'll re-calibrate my Milwaukee and measure again before fruit addition. If needed, I'll co-pitch (again) with the fruit. Probably do 5x capsules per each carboy at that time.

 

[brownni5]

Lots of talk about pH meters, and understandably so, but there are so many factors at play here that I suggest you trust your process and your pallette. The end result shouldn't necessarily be a beer with a pH = 3.XX, but instead a beer you (or your associates) enjoy. My pH meter crapped out sometime in the past 6-months and it really hasn't changed how I brew or the quality of my sours. I plan to replace it, but because I'm curious, not because it's essential.

 

[brownni5]

That my be, but put taste buds didn't lie as it's only lightly sour.

Yes!!

 

[fendersrule]

Carboys still in there burping way at a good speed! Hopefully it's souring, dammit!

I've also decided to let it go to 70F, instead of mid 60s as it finishes up.

 

[deeve007]

A day later and the sourness is coming through a little more, and I remembered I did add lactose to the boil for this one for the first time, so that's likely impacted the sourness a little possibly, no?

 

[fendersrule]

My PH is the same level (measured today). I'm going to run to the store and buy some probiotics and re-pitch with the fruit. The problem with stuff from the store is that it's mixed with other stuff.

RPH, I printed out your picture and will see if walgreens or whatever has it.

 

[fendersrule]

Alright @RPh_Guy, I JUST got back form Walgreens and got the same exact stuff you use. It's in the fridge now.

I'm pasteurizing the fruit now, and will pitch 2 capsules of this with the fruit. Would you do more? It should still make a nice sour.

Finally excited that this will for sure start the souring process.

BTW, I checked my L Planatarum expiration date, and it expired in august in last year....no wonder why it wasn't kicking off.

I'd think I would still get a good sour however pitching it in with 5-10lbs of fruit. I used 2 of those tablets, same as yours.

 

[RPh_Guy]

@fendersrule
Sounds good!
I like that these now come in blister packs (hopefully that what you got). That helps reduce chance of contamination and reduces/eliminates moisture exposure, which prolongs the shelf life.

I did add lactose to the boil for this one for the first time, so that's likely impacted the sourness a little possibly, no?

Yeah, the sweetness would reduce the perception of sourness. If all else fails, the Lacto will eat lactose to produce acid until you add hops or the pH drops low enough.

 

[fendersrule]

Yea, maybe it worked out better that I'm souring with the fruit addition. It helps resolves conflicts because if you soured right off the bat, you'd have to add hops and fruit at the same time which probably isn't ideal. Maybe it doesn't matter since the hop addition is so light, but on paper it's probably better to allow hops separately at the end.

I did re-calibrate my PH gauge, and the number stayed constant, so that yesterday pitch of the expired lacto didn't do anything.

Definitely best to check expiration date of your bugs. If they are expired, get some new ones!

 

[fendersrule]

Timeline Updated.

Sunday 7:00pm: Copitch, 64-65F wort temp. PH level: 4.25
Monday 4:00pm: Signs of fermentation happening. 65F
Tuesday: Fermentation on full, 66-67F
Wednesday: Fermentation still primarily on full, 66-67F. Checked PH at 2PM @ 3.79.
Thursday: Fermentation slowing, 66-67F. Checked PH at 2PM @ 3.79. Determined bugs were expired. Pasteurized fruit and added fruit and repitched NEW bugs at 3PM.
Friday at 10:30AM: 3.68PH. This PH doesn't mean that Lacto is working though, it could just be the blackberry PH level (@RPh_Guy)

 

[fendersrule]

I'm kinda doing a "hybrid" co-pitch + post pitch.

Co-pitch because I did pitch viable bugs with the fruit addition. Post pitch because this pitch was nearing the end of primary fermentation. So far, I'm starting to sweat a little bit because I really want a sour beer and 3.68 just doesn't have that sourness to it. It's not even been been a full 24 hours however since the pitch however.....AND:

I did notice that the blackberry carboy (the one I am pulling PH samples from) hasn't really "restarted" since the fruit addition (5LBs of blackberries) but the peach one (10LBS of peach) is fully on fire now.

As long as viable bugs have been pitched, then I think the best thing is for me be more patient. The PH level is dropping, so that's a good sign. I'm temped to pull from the peach carboy later today.

I do want to have a backup plan if by tomorrow or Sunday I'm unhappy with the PH level.

@RPh_Guy, do you think dumping a whole lot of goodbelly fruit juice would be a good "backup plan" per each carboy if needed? It seems to me that it's basically already a starter.