I'm going with the post fermentation sour. Going to add the lacto 24 hrs later. So I'm away from homebtoday and have been watching the SG fall in fermentrack. I’m 50% attenuated already. Is there a point at which it becomes too late to sour? Are the lacto pretty alcohol tolerant? I know the plantarum are not hops tolerant... But what about ETOH?
Fast Souring - Modern Methods
- Thread starter RPh_Guy
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
I'm going with the post fermentation sour. Going to add the lacto 24 hrs later. So I'm away from homebtoday and have been watching the SG fall in fermentrack. I’m 50% attenuated already. Is there a point at which it becomes too late to sour? Are the lacto pretty alcohol tolerant? I know the plantarum are not hops tolerant... But what about ETOH?
OP
OP
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
The goal with post-souring is to add the Lacto when fermentation is 30-50% complete because that's when the yeast is done producing flavor.
I don't have experience adding bacteria after that point, but I've heard others have been successful. Lacto can consume dextrins and they are very alcohol-tolerant, so it should be ok. This process is pretty forgiving.
Make sure you purge the headspace if you have to add it when fermentation is over so that the beer doesn't oxidize.
Please report back with your results.
I don't have experience adding bacteria after that point, but I've heard others have been successful. Lacto can consume dextrins and they are very alcohol-tolerant, so it should be ok. This process is pretty forgiving.
Make sure you purge the headspace if you have to add it when fermentation is over so that the beer doesn't oxidize.
Please report back with your results.
Added 8 oz of goodbelly probiotic juice at 24 hours. Yeast was 50% attenuated. It was still producing co2/bubbling, so didn’t feel the need to purge headspace. Forgot to make a starter for the lacto though. Doh.
I’m just over 36 hrs since i added the goodbelly and tested pH which is now 4. It doesn’t have a puckering sour taste... maybe a very mild sour taste- i taste and smell the lacto. I’ve been keeping temp at 72 (upper limit for wlp300. Started at 68 and increased to 72 during the last few gravity points). Not sure if i should raise it? Gravity is now 1.008 and been stable for about 12hrs (down from og 1.052, so like 84% attenuation).
I’m planning to add 2.5 lbs of mango and 2.5 lbs of pineapple today (after pasteurizing it) and will purge fermenter headspace with co2. Im trying to speed this along as i want to keg this coming Sunday so it’s carbonated and chilled a few days for a party the following weekend.
Last edited:
4 days in. Added pineapple/mango 24 hrs ago. Had another healthy fermentation. Ramped temp up to 85 deg F last night. Airlock activity has stopped. SG is 1.008. pH is still 4. It maybe tastes a little tart? Not sure.
The goodbelly juice i used was not expired and it was refrigerated in the store. Should i pick some more up in the store, make a starter, and add it back?
OP
OP
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Zero hops, right?
I've always made a buffered starter when post-souring and pitched it during the first half of yeast fermentation, a bit after it reaches high kräusen.
I think making a buffered starter and pitching it would help but with your limited timeline I'm not sure it will fully sour. The starter will at least help to some degree because it will directly add a lot of acid. Keep the starter warm to speed it up, 90-95°F.
yes, no hops. I’ll give it a go!
I apologize if this has been answered: How long do i let the starter go for? Should i make 500 ml of 1.040 starter using DME ? No stir plate, correct? I’m not sure how to keep low oxygen (unless purging a closed vessel with co2)?
edit:
I think i answered most my questions here:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus#Sugar_Utilization_and_Secondary_Metabolites
Last edited:
OP
OP
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Normally I use 200-400mL wort from the 5 gal batch (chilled and pre-pitch), add a couple grams of calcium carbonate, add a capsule of my Lacto culture, and leave it sit at room temp. It just runs however long until it's time to pitch, generally 12-24 hours.
This is a special case where we need to be more aggressive.
Try this:
500mL with 40g DME, 10g dextrose, 10g calcium carbonate. Add however much goodbelly and try to keep it warm as I mentioned. I would let it go at least 12-24 hours of possible, but it will continue to produce acid if you let it go longer.
It's not necessary to keep it anaerobic. A stir plate isn't needed but I would swirl it occasionally.
You may eventually see it bubbling a little as the lactic acid reacts with the calcium carbonate.
Good luck!
Edit: and some yeast nutrient if you have it.
This is a special case where we need to be more aggressive.
Try this:
500mL with 40g DME, 10g dextrose, 10g calcium carbonate. Add however much goodbelly and try to keep it warm as I mentioned. I would let it go at least 12-24 hours of possible, but it will continue to produce acid if you let it go longer.
It's not necessary to keep it anaerobic. A stir plate isn't needed but I would swirl it occasionally.
You may eventually see it bubbling a little as the lactic acid reacts with the calcium carbonate.
Good luck!
Edit: and some yeast nutrient if you have it.
Last edited:
Cool, i have that all on that on hand. My temp controllers are all in use... will have to find a warm spot or steal a temp controller from something...
Is there enough sugars in my main batch for the l. plantarum? I think alluded previously that it will eat sugars the yeast won’t? Is it possible that the yeast outcompeted the lacto? I’ve always heard that you have use a strong starter, it helps prevents spoilage/contamination. I was short on time and only did a 500 ml 4 hr vitality starter with the wlp300 though.
OP
OP
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
"A small number of strains of Lactobacillus can also break down polysaccharides and starches. They are referred to as "amylolytic LAB". They generally belong to the species Lb. manihotivorans, L. fermentum, L. amylovorus, L. amylophilus, L. plantarum or L. amylolyticus." [emphasis added]
In other words, it's possible. As I mentioned, I have heard of brewers pitching Lacto after primary and the beer still souring (don't know what species off the top of my head). Furthermore, I've heard of many beers unintentionally souring after primary fermentation.
My understanding is that while some strains of Lacto can consume the dextrins left over in the wort (and thereby produce acidity) after yeast fermentation, they will do so relatively slowly. So this may not be helpful to you since you're wanting this beer done quickly.
I think yes it's likely that you pitched the bacteria "too little, too late", and/or it's possible the culture was just dead or had low viability.
Pitching a strong yeast starter has a lot of benefits with regard to contamination; positive pressure from CO2 production physically helps keep out microbes; psychologically, brewers are less likely to open the fermentation vessel if they see the airlock bubbling so there's less opportunity for contamination; oxygen consumption by the pitched yeast limits growth of aerobic organisms; alcohol production kills many wild microbes, so quicker fermentation means less chance for them to multiply; the yeast consume micronutrients including zinc and other important co-factors as well as nitrogen, phosphorus, etc.
However, I routinely make continually stirred yeast starters and pitch lots of yeast even when post-souring. For my mixed Brett fast sours I pitch not one, but two different yeast starters, and then the bacteria later (from a buffered starter). For co-souring I use 1-2 capsules per 5 gallons. The Lacto generally is pretty aggressive in my experience (not out-competed by yeast), though I don't have experience with GoodBelly in particular.
Sorry this hasn't worked out well for you this time.
Last edited:
"A small number of strains of Lactobacillus can also break down polysaccharides and starches. They are referred to as "amylolytic LAB". They generally belong to the species Lb. manihotivorans, L. fermentum, L. amylovorus, L. amylophilus, L. plantarum or L. amylolyticus." [emphasis added]
In other words, it's possible. As I mentioned, I have heard of brewers pitching Lacto after primary and the beer still souring (don't know what species off the top of my head). Furthermore, I've heard of many beers unintentionally souring after primary fermentation.
My understanding is that while some strains of Lacto can consume the dextrins left over in the wort (and thereby produce acidity) after yeast fermentation, they will do so relatively slowly. So this may not be helpful to you since you're wanting this beer done quickly.
I think yes it's likely that you pitched the bacteria "too little, too late", and/or it's possible the culture was just dead or had low viability.
Pitching a strong yeast starter has a lot of benefits with regard to contamination; positive pressure from CO2 production physically helps keep out microbes; psychologically, brewers are less likely to open the fermentation vessel if they see the airlock bubbling so there's less opportunity for contamination; oxygen consumption by the pitched yeast limits growth of aerobic organisms; alcohol production kills many wild microbes, so quicker fermentation means less chance for them to multiply; the yeast consume micronutrients including zinc and other important co-factors as well as nitrogen, phosphorus, etc.
However, I routinely make continually stirred yeast starters and pitch lots of yeast even when post-souring. For my mixed Brett fast sours I pitch not one, but two different yeast starters, and then the bacteria later (from a buffered starter). For co-souring I use 1-2 capsules per 5 gallons. The Lacto generally is pretty aggressive in my experience (not out-competed by yeast), though I don't have experience with GoodBelly in particular.
Sorry this hasn't worked out well for you this time.
it’s going just fine! The samples taste really good. It’s going to be a good beer no matter what. So I’m not worried about that. I rarely make fruit beers, so my wife is excited about it.
It just might not sour enough yet; there is some tartness to it, just not sure what’s from lacto and what’s from pineapple/mango. I haven’t tasted too many sours. I don’t have the best ph meter either. I’ll make up some fresh buffer and calibrate it again, although it was on target for my mash. Next time, I may just pitch yeast and lacto at the same time.
I have my lacto starter going. I’ll add it tomorrow after 24 hrs. Starter’s pH which came out as 5.8. I’ll retest it before I pitch it and taste the starter to make sure the goodbelly did it’s job. I’ll give that 4 more days at 85-90 deg. Then add hop tea and keg next Tuesday. Not sure if I’ll add lactose yet. But that will give me a few days to “cold condition” and carbonate by Saturday! Should be just enough time.
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2013
- Messages
- 3,106
- Reaction score
- 5,561
First post fermentation sour attempt using Goodbelly, in progress.
did you make a starter? At what point post fermentation did you add the good belly and how much (eg 50% attenuation or at FG)?
i tested my starter pH this AM. It was 5 about 12 hrs after adding good belly. Unfortunately i only measured ph before adding goodbelly (5.8); so not sure I’d decrease just due to adding 8 oz goodbelly to 500 ml starter. Been keeping the starter at 85 deg.
Soulshine2
Well-Known Member
your post mash boil needs only to be up to a boil or actually just pasteurizing temp WITHOUT HOPS for a few minutes then chilled , THEN you add your souring and let that ride (up to 48 hrs for mine) then bring it back to the full boil (stops the souring) with your hop schedule and proceed to chill and pitch as normal. If you add hops during the first boil it will inhibit the souring .
OP
OP
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Please don't give advice in this thread when you're using a completely different method.
I brewed a quick no-boil sour beer last year. I may try it again this summer when it's too hot to be boiling wort for an hour. I made a lacto starter using a handful of pilsner malt in some DME and held it a few days at... 105℉ I think? I need to go look at my notes. No hops. I soured the wort and fermented it with kveik yeast at the same time, and don't remember which one I gave a slight head start. It was ready to bottle in a few days, and ready to drink a week after that. But next time I will at least pasteurize it, and more likely bring it to a full boil for 1 minute to also get some hot break and maybe clear it a little. This one tasted okay but was pretty murky
Sour instead of hops took a little getting used to, but by the second or third bottle I liked it.
Sour instead of hops took a little getting used to, but by the second or third bottle I liked it.
OP
OP
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
FYI the mash thoroughly pasteurizes the wort.
I wouldn't recommend bottling beer that soon with a live diverse wild culture as a normal practice. It's kind of risky... But I'm glad it worked out.
I mashed at 148 degrees, and did not raise the temperature to "mash out". Is that high enough to pasteurize it?
I used all plastic bottles because I didn't trust it. They can take more pressure than glass, and if one bursts it's not dangerous and it won't set off a chain reaction.
OP
OP
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Yes, any mash schedule will more than adequately pasteurized the wort because gelatinization occurs only above pasteurizing temperatures.
Good call with the bottles.
Soulshine2
Well-Known Member
I did pretty much what you listed in the first post. How is that a different method.
brownni5
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2017
- Messages
- 782
- Reaction score
- 334
You mean aside from being pretty much completely different?
Go back and read carefully again. What you are suggesting is the typical sour-boil-pitch kettle sour. That's not what this thread is.
You are describing a kettle sour which is different than this modern fast sour technique. Please go back and reread the OP.
Kettle souring involves pitching bacteria alone for a period of hours to days between the mash and boil/hop schedule. The boil and hop schedule kills the bacteria. Then you pitch yeast alone for a somewhat normal fermentation. Kettle souring inhibits yeast character expression, eliminates any probiotic benefits, and adds increased risk of oxidation and spoilage contamination.
Modern fast souring involves the yeast and bacteria working together with or without the yeast having a slight head start. Yeast flavor is expressed because acidity is low during early fermentation. The bacteria remains viable in the finished beer even if it has become inhibited by dry hopping or a hop tea thus creating a probiotic. Modern fast souring has no delay in fermentation this making for a safer technique with respect to spoilage contaminates.
Kettle souring is a valid technique that hit the microbrew and Homebrew scene years ago but is becoming antiquated. The kettle souring technique prayed on the age old fear of contamination of the brewery by souring microbes. This thread has been specifically dedicated to easing those fears and discounting kettle souring when compared to modern fast sours.
If someone gets started on sours with kettle souring or someone likes the kettle souring technique then that’s great! It’s just not what this thread is about. If someone is newer to sour techniques and you get to any point in this thread where you’re confused, just go back to the OP.
Right?!?! It feels like yesterday when I first heard about it and was really excited. I also have fond memories of the blackberry. For you kids, that’s not fruit...lol.
Starter had dropped to a pH of 4.5; guess that makes sense since that’s about the pKa of CaCO3.
When i went to add starter to my beer, i again checked pH of beer. It’s down to 3.6 (from 4). So it’s souring slowly. I went and added starter anyway. Tastes pretty good; definitely souring up nicely. Goes well with the pineapple/mango.
I
ive been off in my own little world brewing New England IPAs, Belgians, and meads the last few years... started reading this forum again and kettle sours were new to me a few weeks ago. I had stayed away from sours; last i heard they took a long time and contaminated your equipment!
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2013
- Messages
- 3,106
- Reaction score
- 5,561
I used Imperial yeast so did not make a starter. Fermented at 65F. I pitched the LAB when the wort was 75% to target FG. Since then I was unexpectedly sent out of town so haven't had a chance to measure the pH of the beer. Fingers crossed it isn't too sour.
Do you guys have experience with belle saison, co souring and passion fruit addition?
I am thinking about using a high wheat malt percentage, like about 40-50%, rest pale or Pilsener, passion fruit purée and belle. No hops involved.
Belle brings the fg down very quickly so I do not see a chance for oversouring, as there won't be much left for the bacterias to eat, once it is done fermenting.
Only thing is, the passion fruit might add already quite a big amount of acid itself.
I won't get into pH reading, worst case would be a beer for blending, which would be fine. I am aiming for about 4% abv.
My idea would be to throw everything together from the start, so no head start for the yeast, only the purée would be added at the end of fermentation for obvious reasons.
Any thoughts on this?
In my head, this sounds reasonable, but I might miss something.
I am thinking about using a high wheat malt percentage, like about 40-50%, rest pale or Pilsener, passion fruit purée and belle. No hops involved.
Belle brings the fg down very quickly so I do not see a chance for oversouring, as there won't be much left for the bacterias to eat, once it is done fermenting.
Only thing is, the passion fruit might add already quite a big amount of acid itself.
I won't get into pH reading, worst case would be a beer for blending, which would be fine. I am aiming for about 4% abv.
My idea would be to throw everything together from the start, so no head start for the yeast, only the purée would be added at the end of fermentation for obvious reasons.
Any thoughts on this?
In my head, this sounds reasonable, but I might miss something.
Soulshine2
Well-Known Member
i was under the impression this was still a discussion forum. Im sorry to say the attitudes in here are going the way they are, everybody is so butthurt and on the defensive to usable and practical information . might as well just start a whole new forum stating if your thoughts differ from the OP , just keep scrolling or just go away . I saw the title and thought id contribute the information that was given to me by another member, which for the record wasnt THAT different from the one im being chastised about, and resulted in a great sour beer and was one of my best brewed ever.
I’m very glad you had a good experience brewing with that method! I sincerely encourage you to add your experience to a thread discussing that method or start a new thread to compile different experiences using that method. This thread can certainly benefit from someone reminding people of other methods that are out there but your earlier posts came across like someone explaining how to lager in an OP that discussed NEIPA for example. The information was not wrong but it is just off topic and potentially very confusing.
Soulshine2
Well-Known Member
When did i mention lagering??
Soulshine2
Well-Known Member
Co-Souring Method:
So. My method which I got from Jag75 is just doing a separate sour and ferment step. The rest is almost verbatim
Yeah , i can see how thats totally different.
- Make unhopped wort. Chill as normal.
- Pitch Lactobacillus plantarum and the yeast of your choice.
- Ferment as normal, at 65°F or higher.
- Optional/recommended add hops when it reaches the desired sourness. (Dry hops or hop tea)
- Package as normal.
So. My method which I got from Jag75 is just doing a separate sour and ferment step. The rest is almost verbatim
Yeah , i can see how thats totally different.
[emoji6]
Mate, just open your own thread please, this one is not about kettle sours and that's it.
I think it's good that he brought up another method. (a link to another thread about that would be nice) But it's close enough that it is a little confusing, and probably why he thought it was the same thing. If everybody could drop it now, that'd be great. (I am not a moderator; I don't wanna be a moderator; you can all throw eggs at me now if you want)
Back to topic, Kveik yeast is good for co-souring because it can ferment just fine at the same ideal temperatures as lactobacillus (over 90℉)
Back to topic, Kveik yeast is good for co-souring because it can ferment just fine at the same ideal temperatures as lactobacillus (over 90℉)
OP
OP
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Sounds fine to me.
All ale yeasts are good for co-souring because L. plantarum does not need to be kept warm, just 65°F or higher.
Soulshine2
Well-Known Member
First of all MATE, go back to the #1 post on this thread and you'll see where I got that co-souring method. cut and paste.
I might as well open my own thread. Y'all are acting like a bunch of 3 yr olds. nit-picking mf'ers . if its not 100% worded like you say , its wrong. I'm just done.
OP
OP
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
The separate souring and yeast fermentation steps do make a huge difference in the beer and brewing process. I apologize if this wasn't clear!
Pre-souring (AKA kettle sour):
- Longer brewing/fermentation process and two separate brew days.
- Higher risk of contamination.
- Pre-acidification recommended.
- Requires high bacteria pitch rate.
- Kills the bacteria (if you boil/pasteurize after souring).
- Removes most of the bacterial flavor (if you boil/pasteurize after souring).
- Generally requires higher yeast pitch rate.
- Mutes yeast flavor almost entirely.
- Precludes low oxygen brewing.
- Allows use of a larger variety of bacteria cultures.
Co- and Post-souring:
- Shorter brewing/fermentation process. Single brew day.
- Lower risk of contamination.
- No pre-acidification needed.
- Low bacteria pitch rate allowable.
- Lets the bacteria live.
- More flavor from the bacteria.
- Normal yeast pitch rate.
- Allows normal yeast flavor expression.
- Allows low oxygen brewing.
- Requires Lactobacillus plantarum (unless using kveik, maybe).
Furthermore:
- All these methods allow control over the hop rate.
- All these methods allow control over the sourness.
- All these methods can make delicious beer.
...and while we're making comparisons:
Lactic Acid Yeast:
- Normal process length, contamination risk, and pitch rate.
- Requires no bacteria.
- Allows low oxygen brewing.
- You are entirely locked in to the flavor from the incredibly limited number of lactic acid yeast cultures that are available and they are not easily available (currently).
- No control over the level of sourness.
I'm definitely not trying to antagonize anyone!
Cheers.
Last edited:
This thread was started to promote the co-pitching technique over the kettle sour technique for making sour beers. What you described was the kettle sour technique, which goes against the whole point of the thread. There are a number of advantages and key differences to the co-pitching technique. That’s why people are being nit-picky about it.
