EZ Water Calculator 3.0

[1971hemicuda]

ok...here's a dumb question. (Ok, no such thing as a dumb question, just a dumb user)

I've read through ALOT of this thread. Not everything, but alot. TONS of really great information here...enough so that i'm going to start treating my water and see the results!

Anyways...the question...

where do flaked grains fit in? If i'm making a beer that's more than 50% flaked wheat...is that "base malt other"?

 

[Prymal]

So biscuit malt is a lightly roasted malt around 25 or 30 L does it still fall under the roast/toasted category? All of your examples are really dark roasts.

 

[mabrungard]

From my read of grain acidity vs. color that Kai Troester came up with, a malt shouldn't be considered 'roasted' until the color is greater than 200L. Below that color, I would treat it as a base malt or crystal malt with its reported color rating.

 

[BigTerp]

So a quick question for you water genius'. I'm brewing a pale ale. To get my mash water in the proper pH and approiate overall mineral content I'm dilluting my mash water with 50% distilled and adding 6 grams of gypsum, 4 grams of cal. chlr. and 1 gram of epsom salt. I'll be only adding a tiny bit of lactic acid to my sparge water to get the pH down from 7.6. The calculator estimates my RA to be around negative(-)100. Is this something I need to be concerend about/worry about messing with?? I have a decent understanding of mash pH and mineral compostion but RA has been a confusing topic for me.

 

[ajdelange]

So a quick question for you water genius'. I'm brewing a pale ale. To get my mash water in the proper pH and approiate overall mineral content I'm dilluting my mash water with 50% distilled and adding 6 grams of gypsum, 4 grams of cal. chlr. and 1 gram of epsom salt. I'll be only adding a tiny bit of lactic acid to my sparge water to get the pH down from 7.6. The calculator estimates my RA to be around negative(-)100. Is this something I need to be concerend about/worry about messing with?? I have a decent understanding of mash pH and mineral compostion but RA has been a confusing topic for me.

I'd be concerned about an RA of -100 if it's really the RA of the water. That would imply hardness of at least 350 ppm as CaCO3 in water with no alkalinity. In alkaline water the hardness would have to be even higher. That's a lot of minerals - suitable for some beers but unsuitable for others. The reason I say "if it's really the RA of the water" is that some of the spreadsheets do funny things in RA calculation when acids are involved. RA is formally defined as the alkalinity minus the total hardness divided by 3.5. It is a measure that was intended for the comparison of brewing waters. If you add acid to water the RA does change but there is also a pH shift. Many of the spreadsheets don't account for that. Unfortunately when I bought a new laptop I had to "upgrade" to a newer version of Excel which will not open the current version of the EZ spreadheet so I can't say more than this.

Looking at the earlier part of the post: diluting with DI water and adding minerals are pushing on the one hand and pulling on the other so you would need to be more specific about what you are starting with and where you are trying to end up if you want more specific comments.

 

[BigTerp]

First of all if -TH- doesn't want me clogging up his thread with this let me know and I'll start another

Thanks for the response ajdelange. Below is my initial water report. It is well water FWIW.

pH 7.6
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 211
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.35
Cations / Anions, me/L 4.0 / 4.1
ppm
Sodium, Na 3
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 51
Magnesium, Mg 16
Total Hardness, CaCO3 194
Nitrate, NO3-N 1.3 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 4
Chloride, Cl 5
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 221
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 181
Total Phosphorus, P 0.59
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01

I'm brewing EdWorts Haus Pale Ale. Which includes 8 lbs pale, 2lbs. Vienna and 1/2lb. Crystal 10L. Based on my boil off rate, MLT dead space and grain absorption I'll be using 4 gallons of strike water and 4.25 gallons of sparge water (batch sparge). When I punch these numbers into the EZWater spreadsheet I get an estimated mash pH of 5.8. So to lower my pH I added 50% distilled to my strike water. This gives me a mash pH of 5.72 and also lowers my overall mineral compostion to much according to the spreadsheet and research I did with Bru'n Water.
Ca-39
Mg-12
Na-2
Cl-4
SO4-9
So to further lower mash pH and up my mineral compostion to the desired levels I added the following ONLY TO THE STRIKE WATER.
Gypsum-8 grams
Calcium Chloride-4 grams
Epsom Salt-2 grams

This gives me an estimated mash pH of 5.56 with a RA of -77. Resulting in a more style desirable mineral profile of:
Ca-132
Mg-18
Na-2
Cl-66
SO4-177

I understand what your saying about pushing/pulling with the adding of DI water. But if I use straight tap water I actually end up using more salts to get my pH down to even close to acceptable ranges.

Maybe I'm WAY off base with all of this, and if so please let me know.

My only other concern is the Na content seems a bit low. Problem?

The only additions I plan to add to the sparge water is a bit of lactic acid to lower the pH from 7.6. What pH shoud I be shooting for and about how much lactic acid do I need for the 4.25 gallons of sparge water I'll be using?

 

[ajdelange]

The thing that is eating your lunch is the high bicarbonate (alkalinity) and dilution with RO is an excellent way to get rid of (or reduce) that - so far so good. But it also reduced everything else i.e. 1:1 dilution cuts alkalinity in half but it also cuts hardness (calcium, magnesium) in half and chloride and sulfate. For example, many, if not most, think calcium at 25 mg/L is too little and certainly if you want traditional British hop character cutting the sulfate back to 6 (it is originally 3 x 4 = 12 because Ward Labs reports it "as sulfur") isn't going to give you that. Dilution followed by supplementation with calcium chloride and calcium sulfate is the way to get calcium, sulfate and chloride to higher levels with lower alkalinity. But trying to control mash pH with calcium will result in very high calcium levels because it takes 3.5 equivalents of calcium to combat one equivalent of alkalinity. Mash pH should be controlled by acid - not calcium. The acid traditionally came from dark or roast malts but in modern brewing in Britain it comes from a mix of hydrochloric and sulfuric acids sold as "CRS" (carbonate reducing solution). In the rest of Europe and in the US it comes from acidulated malt or lactic acid. Most beers, with the exception of quite dark ones, require acid in some form. I personally prefer the acidulated malt because it's so easy to measure and calculate: 1 % of grist for each 0.1 pH mash reduction. It's not exactly traditional in British brewing but it works. Others prefer lactic acid or phosphoric acid. Both of these are available in food grade at better homebrew shops. CRS is not, AFAIK, available outside Britain.

If you want those high levels of mineral in your beer there is nothing wrong with having them. I personally don't like beers with a strong mineral flavor but I'm not everyone. I do always suggest trying brews with acids and lower mineral levels because there is a good chance you will prefer them that way.

 

[BigTerp]

If you want those high levels of mineral in your beer there is nothing wrong with having them. I personally don't like beers with a strong mineral flavor but I'm not everyone. I do always suggest trying brews with acids and lower mineral levels because there is a good chance you will prefer them that way.

I have no other evidence for my mineral levels other than what I have researched from Palmer and Bru'n Water. The levels I was shooting for came from the Pale Ale desirable water profile from Bru'n Waters spreadsheet.

Not saying it is right or wrong, I still have a TON to learn about water chemistry. Is there other resources you would reccommend for mineral composition information??

 

[ajdelange]

I believe (which means it's just a feeling I'm getting) that the general philosophy regarding brewing water treatment is changing from "match the water that the style was originally brewed with" to "use the softest water you can consistent with mineral levels that support yeast health and any particular desired mineral characteristics". The former approach was the only approach (other than "do nothing - just brew with the water you have" for years and is the reason for the proliferation of spreadsheets most of which come with example profiles for various styles. It's not a bad approach. At least you know that your Pils won't come out with the mineral characteristics of an Export but there is something to be said for the other approach which is to start with very soft water, add a little calcium carbonate and brew again and again tweaking the levels of chloride and sulfate until you get the best tasting beer (or beer which is "best" by whatever your criterion of optimality may be). It's entirely possible that you can make, for example, a better tasting Irish Stout with tailored water than can be made with Dublin water. It's probable that what Guiness brews today is done that way rather than trying to copy Dublin water (but this is no more than a guess). The result may be better tasting but less authentic than Guiness and you need to decide, if that's the case, which you want.

The caveat that goes with the match-the-profile approach is that many of the published profiles are bogus in the sense that they are not physically realizable. At least one of the spreadsheets, Bru'n Water, has profiles which have been corrected so that they are physically realizable and others may have done the corrections as well.

 

[mabrungard]

I generally agree with AJ on the philosophy of keeping brewing water ion concentrations relatively low under many conditions. I diverge from that position where distinct flavor enhancement for certain styles can be obtained by bumping up certain ion concentrations.

Last weekend I had the opportunity to taste an American Pale Ale that helps reinforce my contention. That APA was brewed by a new all grain brewer using distilled water with NO mineral additions. It was a clean beer with no obvious fermentation faults. The problem was that the beer was lacking any character that I consider a key to the style. Bland, slightly tart, no hop distinction. Sure there are other factors beside water chemistry that can also contribute to that lack of character, but this example does raise the spector of water chemistry as a culprit.

The modestly mineralized Pale Ale water profile included in Bru'n Water apparently has its genesis (at least in part) from Randy Mosher. It is a substantial step back from the extremely mineralized Burton profile but it still does add the 'pop' that a good pale ale should have.

Elevated flavor ions do have a place in brewing in some styles. The bitterness and tartness from magnesium, the roundness from sodium and chloride, the hop sharpness from sulfate. All have their effect, but a good brewer should know not to over do it. As AJ mentions above, duplicating a water profile from a historic brewing center might not produce the best tasting beer and more typically, lower ion concentrations prove to make better tasting beer.

 

[ajdelange]

I generally agree with AJ on the philosophy of keeping brewing water ion concentrations relatively low under many conditions. I diverge from that position where distinct flavor enhancement for certain styles can be obtained by bumping up certain ion concentrations.

I don't really think there is much divergence of opinion here. An Export wouldn't be an Export (IMO) without the mineral snap (except that I notice that the most recent edition of the BJCP guidelines has dropped mention of this so I guess we need to emphasize the IMO). A British ale wouldn't be a British ale without the sulfate (but it seems to me that even the classic of classics, Bass, is now brewed with much lower mineral content than it was). It's things like this that make me inclined to think the industry/hobby is moving towards softer water brews.

The point I really want to make is that brewers should strive to optimize according to their own optimality criterion (better tasting vs. more authentic vs. sells better vs. preferred by friends vs...), not mine or that of anyone else except, of course, if that criterion is maximum ribbons taken at BJCP competitions they had better adhere to BJCP guidelines.

 

[BigTerp]

I appreciate the input on mineral composition. I plan to shoot for somewhere in the middle/lower end of the bru'n water style profile and adjust based on taste for future batches.

 

[kincade]

TH: Can I make a suggestion for future versions?

Since the sparge additions are added to the boil kettle, instead of "sparge water" as in "Sparge water additions", why not call it "boil kettle additions" instead? I think that would make it clearer. I've had a few people ask me now offline about how and when to add the sparge water salts. Most think it should be added to sparge water in the hot liquor tank which is incorrect.

Mash salts are added to the mash when you dough in.
Sparge water additions are added to the boil kettle.

Earlier versions of the spreadsheet actually said:



That info's now gone in version 3, but it's not really needed if the labels are clear enough to begin with.

Kal

Kal, just caught this post and realized ive been doing this wrong... So sparge water additions and lactic acids are added to hlt prior to sparging and doughing in, and mash additions are added diectly to mash and not the hlt prior to mash?

 

[pickles]

What Kal is saying is that mash additions go directly into mash (with dough in water mixed in) and sparge additions go into the bk after mashing.

 

[Yooper]

What Kal is saying is that mash additions go directly into mash (with dough in water mixed in) and sparge additions go into the bk after mashing.

Except for the lactic acid in the sparge water, of course! If you're using lactic acid to adjust the pH of the sparge water, the lactic acid will go into the HLT with the sparge water.

I don't use sparge additions, but I do treat my sparge water with 5 ml of lactic acid as I have alkaline water. The "mash" additions go into the mash to adjust the pH. If you have more additions, called the "sparge" additions for flavor (which I never use), those go into the BK.

 

[kal]

Except for the lactic acid in the sparge water, of course! If you're using lactic acid to adjust the pH of the sparge water, the lactic acid will go into the HLT with the sparge water.

I don't use sparge additions, but I do treat my sparge water with 5 ml of lactic acid as I have alkaline water. The "mash" additions go into the mash to adjust the pH. If you have more additions, called the "sparge" additions for flavor (which I never use), those go into the BK.

Yes - exactly right. Hopefully someone should know that to lower sparge water pH you have to add it to the sparge water. But it would be best if that was clear too.

I also add a bit of 88% lactic acid to sparge water (in the HLT) to get the pH below 6 before I start to sparge. (Which reminds me... I need to buy some more lactic acid ... I'm running low!).

My water's pretty soft/non-alkaline - usually only takes 2 mL or so in 11-13 gallons to get the pH to under 6. This is a case where you really should use a pH meter to check (at least the first few times). Most city water doesn't change enough over the year so once you know how much you need you don't need to measure every time (I certainly don't).

Kal

 

[kincade]

Yes - exactly right. Hopefully someone should know that to lower sparge water pH you have to add it to the sparge water. But it would be best if that was clear too.

I also add a bit of 88% lactic acid to sparge water (in the HLT) to get the pH below 6 before I start to sparge. (Which reminds me... I need to buy some more lactic acid ... I'm running low!).

My water's pretty soft/non-alkaline - usually only takes 2 mL or so in 11-13 gallons to get the pH to under 6. This is a case where you really should use a pH meter to check (at least the first few times). Most city water doesn't change enough over the year so once you know how much you need you don't need to measure every time (I certainly don't).

Kal

I guess I need to do a little more reading on this. I thought I was doing this correctly, but apparently I've screwed this up from the beginning. For instance, in step 4 it shows under "mash additions" Gypsum, Calcium Chloride, and Epsom Salt, each with checkmarks underneath that say 'adjusting sparge water'. Since the sparge water additions have always read the exact same as the mash, I have always tossed the total amount in my hlt prior to doughing in. I've also tossed the lactic acid in prior to doughing in. Then I dough in with the sparge water, and after the mash I use the remainder of the water to sparge.

So... Let me see if I have this straight now:

-mash additions go directly into mash (with dough in water mixed in) and is done to control proper ph and proper conversion?

-As I use the test strips and dont own a ph meter, the proper usage is to pull a small sample of the mash and water out after doughing in, let it cool to room temp, and read keeping in mind that the strips will usually read .2 low?

-lactic acid is only added to the sparge water AFTER mash to adjust the ph of the sparge water, thus insuring the mash does not shift in PH while sparging? I have tried to adjust to 5.8 on the sparge water to avoid a ph shift to higher than 5.8 resulting in possible tannin extraction.

How does this look so far?

One more question. Is lactic acid ever added to the mash to adjust ph? As I always start with RO water (ph of 6.9) and adjust the mineral content to suit I am sometimes not able to get the mash ph correct with only the mash mineral additions without going drastically out of palmers recommended ranges. In the past I have compensated using a small amount of lactic in the mash while keeping in the recommended ranges. I have avoided using acidulated due to a fear of it affecting my flavor, but after reading last night it appears the lactic can have the same effect.

<sigh>. Thanks for bearing with me, I'll get this yet.

 

[pickles]

Right sparge water ph needs to be addressed before sparging. Kal's right that a meter is needed, lactic acid goes a long way. I use a small 5 ml seringe to dose the lactic acid.

 

[kal]

Let me see if I have this straight now...

I think you got it right. Here's an example of what I do:

- 20 gallons of tap water added to the HLT.
- 500mg potassium metabisulphite (~1 campden tablet) added to HLT water to remove chlorine/chloramine.
- Strike water moved from HLT to MLT. Grain added. Mash salts added. Goal of salts here is to get pH into the right range for proper conversion.
- pH of mash measured. If still too high, add a bit of lactic acid (usually only needed with really light coloured beers like light lagers where I don't add much salts to my soft city water to begin with).
- While mashing I add some lactic acid to the HLT water to bring the pH below 6, preferrably in the 5.6-5.8 range. Goal is to minimize tannin extraction from grain husks while sparging.
- After I've sparged to the boil kettle, I add the boil salts (called 'sparge salts' in the spreadsheet) directly to the boil kettle. Goal of salts here is for taste. Some of the mash salts end up in the boil kettle too when sparging of course so they affect taste too. It's all taken into consideration with the spreadsheet.
- Boil, cool, ferment, package, drink, be merry.

I go into greater detail a bit in my Brew Day: Step by Step guide but that's the gist (grist? ) of it.

Sounds like you're doing things exactly right. Or we're both doing it wrong.

One more question. Is lactic acid ever added to the mash to adjust ph? As I always start with RO water (ph of 6.9) and adjust the mineral content to suit I am sometimes not able to get the mash ph correct with only the mash mineral additions without going drastically out of palmers recommended ranges. In the past I have compensated using a small amount of lactic in the mash while keeping in the recommended ranges. I have avoided using acidulated due to a fear of it affecting my flavor, but after reading last night it appears the lactic can have the same effect.

This is exactly what I do if the pH is still too high. IMHO, lactic won't be tasted when used in small quantities.

Some people chose to use 10% phosphoric acid instead as they say it cannot be tasted as easily as lactic acid. I don't find this an issue issue as 88% lactic acid in the quantities I use (usually 0.1-0.2 mL per gallon at most) simply cannot be tasted even in the lightest of beers I make. I've read that you need at least 10 times the amount before it becomes noticeable.

Some others say that phosphoric acid will precipitate calcium out solution which could throw brewing salt additions out of whack (though likely only very miniscule/irrelevant amounts that will not affect the final beer).

Plus and minuses to both both but in the quantities we use I don't think using either presents any problems. My 2 cents.

Kal

 

[-TH-]

FWIW, I know Palmer says to add sparge salts to boil kettle for the reason that not all minerals will dissolve in the water and may be left behind in MLT, but others (AJ and Martin for example) have said that the only mineral that might not dissolve well is chalk and most of us are avoiding the use of that anyway. AJ mentioned in another thread that he treats all of his water for his session at once prior to everything (mashing, sparging, etc.)

Thinking about all this again reminded me why I took the note off v3 regarding adding sparge salts to boil instead of sparge water. However I do plan on putting some kind of note on there soon to help clear things up but I want to do a little bit more research first.

Cheers!

 

[kincade]

Kal,

Thanks a million, I appreciate all the advice from you and everyone else here. One of your comments stood out at me:

After I've sparged to the boil kettle, I add the boil salts (called 'sparge salts' in the spreadsheet) directly to the boil kettle. Goal of salts here is for taste. Some of the mash salts end up in the boil kettle too when sparging of course so they affect taste too. It's all taken into consideration with the spreadsheet.

This I think is where I am getting messed up, and it's a matter of terminology. I have been reading this as 'sparge salts', meaning to me prior to sparging the grains. I have never added any salts to the boil kettle, and have tried to adjust my water prior in the HLT prior to sparging. My assumption was that the minerals will end up in the boil kettle after the sparge anyway, and will likely help the mash stay in the proper PH and conversion while sparging.

Is there a disadvantage to doing it this way as opposed to splitting the mash salts into the mash and 'sparge salts' into the boil kettle directly post sparge?

I do think that I will need to get a pH meter if I'm going to be serious about this. The test strips have worked ok for me in the past but the accuracy is just too dependent upon the light available and even then seems to be subject to an accuracy of .2.

FWIW, I know Palmer says to add sparge salts to boil kettle for the reason that not all minerals will dissolve in the water and may be left behind in MLT, but others (AJ and Martin for example) have said that the only mineral that might not dissolve well is chalk and most of us are avoiding the use of that anyway. AJ mentioned in another thread that he treats all of his water for his session at once prior to everything (mashing, sparging, etc.)

Thinking about all this again reminded me why I took the note off v3 regarding adding sparge salts to boil instead of sparge water. However I do plan on putting some kind of note on there soon to help clear things up but I want to do a little bit more research first.

Cheers!

TH, thanks for the comment (which seems to address my question to Kal). My experience was that chalk was the only left over in the MLT/HLT as well, but it was hardly scientific on my part and more observational. I'm happy to hear that others have done it the way I have been doing it, but I'd really like to know which is the better method.

Thanks again for the incredibly useful spreadsheet; I can't imagine to going back to hand plotting nomographs I had copied from palmers book. I've thought about trying Bruinwater out as well but it seems that I'm confused enough already to add another wild card.

 

[Yooper]

One more question. Is lactic acid ever added to the mash to adjust ph? As I always start with RO water (ph of 6.9) and adjust the mineral content to suit I am sometimes not able to get the mash ph correct with only the mash mineral additions without going drastically out of palmers recommended ranges. In the past I have compensated using a small amount of lactic in the mash while keeping in the recommended ranges. I have avoided using acidulated due to a fear of it affecting my flavor, but after reading last night it appears the lactic can have the same effect.

<sigh>. Thanks for bearing with me, I'll get this yet.

Certainly you can add lactic acid to the mash to adjust pH. After much reading on the subject, though, I found it just easier to add 1-3% acid malt to the mash to lower the pH.

As far as flavor, its' the same. Lactic acid from the acid malt is the same lactic acid from the bottle. The amounts differ, but if you stay below the taste threshold, you won't notice a difference.

 

[ajdelange]

As far as flavor, its' the same. Lactic acid from the acid malt is the same lactic acid from the bottle. The amounts differ, but if you stay below the taste threshold, you won't notice a difference.

I think the malt actually adds a subtle complexity to brews, and Weyermann's actually advertises this, even at the levels required for pH control in Pils, Kölsch etc.

 

[kincade]

Perfect. Thanks for the information; I'm doing an APA tomorrow so I plan to try this the 'correct' way and see how things turn out.

I do have one rather dumb question still. For those of you that are using the spreadsheet, this this your one stop shop for adjusting water? Or are you using in conjuction with Palmers spreadsheet / Bruinwater / etc?

To date I have been using Palmers spreadsheet to determine ppm of CA or MG needed to adjust mash then going to the EZwatercalc spreadsheet and dividing those up between the three choices in order to keep the water balanced. If additions wouldn't cut it, then I add some lactic. But I may be adding unneccesary complexity to the process.

Here is my last water adjustment for a wheat beer for reference.

 

[kal]

Certainly you can add lactic acid to the mash to adjust pH. After much reading on the subject, though, I found it just easier to add 1-3% acid malt to the mash to lower the pH.

As far as flavor, its' the same. Lactic acid from the acid malt is the same lactic acid from the bottle. The amounts differ, but if you stay below the taste threshold, you won't notice a difference.

Yup. Both will work. The reason I prefer to add lactic acid instead of acid malt is that it's easier: I can add a bit of lactic acid at time using an eyedropper instead of trying to figure out ahead of time how much acid malt you need to include in the crush.

Kal

 

[kal]

I do have one rather dumb question still. For those of you that are using the spreadsheet, this this your one stop shop for adjusting water? Or are you using in conjuction with Palmers spreadsheet / Bruinwater / etc?

I only use EZ water. I then verify with a pH meter on brew day, though it's rare that I'll try to make adjustments after the salts are all measured out. About the only brew day "on the fly" pH adjustments I make are with lactic acid to lower mash pH (rarely needed) or to lower sparge water pH.

Incidentally, your water seems *extremely* soft (lack of minerals). Congrats! you can pretty much brew anything with that water. There's seriously no Mg in it at all? Wow. Your levels are close to what you get with distilled or RO water.

That said, you're making an APA - I'd try to get the Cl:S04 ratio in the bitter range by upping your S04 a bit and lowering your Cl a bit. But that's just me!

Kal

 

[emjay]

I don't use sparge additions, but I do treat my sparge water with 5 ml of lactic acid as I have alkaline water.

Me too. Very hard, very alkaline water. I was going to ask if you have municipal water, but I'm guessing in the UP, most of you have wells.

Because my (municipal) water comes right from the Great Lakes (Lake Ontario), and it's just not very good brewing water. It's best for dark beers, but even then, it's far from ideal. So I'm pretty much resigned to using distilled water.

Some people chose to use 10% phosphoric acid instead as they say it cannot be tasted as easily as lactic acid.

10%?

My LHBS carries 1gal jugs of 85% phosphoric acid from Five Star. I use it for everything except German beers, which I use a similar 1gal jug of lactic acid, also from Five Star. A gallon of each is such a large amount, and costs so relatively little, that I just don't care if the contribution of lactic acid is supposed to be undetectable.

I also use the lactic acid for flavoring, and the phosphoric acid to wash yeast - Five Star even includes instructions for it right on the label.

 

[kincade]

I only use EZ water. I then verify with a pH meter on brew day, though it's rare that I'll try to make adjustments after the salts are all measured out. About the only brew day "on the fly" pH adjustments I make are with lactic acid to lower mash pH (rarely needed) or to lower sparge water pH.

Incidentally, your water seems *extremely* soft (lack of minerals). Congrats! you can pretty much brew anything with that water. There's seriously no Mg in it at all? Wow. Your levels are close to what you get with distilled or RO water.

That said, you're making an APA - I'd try to get the Cl:S04 ratio in the bitter range by upping your S04 a bit and lowering your Cl a bit. But that's just me!

Kal

Thank you for the information Kal. To clarify, I brew with RO water. The measurements I used are from a sample of my RO I sent to Ward Labs so I would know what I'm working with. Secondly, the EZwater xls I posted above is for my last brew, a wheat beer. My upcoming will be an APA. Thanks for the tips, I'm still trying to get this down. I broke down and bought a PH meter finally, so hopefully I can try and get this a bit closer than guessing.

For those that check the mash with a PH meter do you pull a sample of grain and water out, let it cool and then test? Or just test the liquid after cooling? I'm planning on checking it about 10 minutes after mashing in.

 

[ajdelange]

Just the liquid is OK. Do be sure to let it cool and pull samples every 10 minutes or so to see how long it takes the readings to stabilize. Once you've done the work of calibrating the meter it takes very little additional effort to take a sample reading.

 

[-TH-]

Just the liquid is OK. Do be sure to let it cool and pull samples every 10 minutes or so to see how long it takes the readings to stabilize. Once you've done the work of calibrating the meter it takes very little additional effort to take a sample reading.

I am curious, how exactly do you pull samples? The reason I ask is because I did a brew Sunday that was a recipe I have brewed before, and after waiting about 15-20 min I opened the lid on my cooler MLT and dipped a shot glass into the top of the mash to get my sample. It contained liquid as well as grain. After letting it cool to room temp (it sat for an additional 20 or more minutes), I calibrated my meter and then measured the pH which was 6.0. In the past for this recipe (which includes about 2% acid malt BTW), I have always measured 5.5. So I opened the cooler again, this time stirred the mash thoroughly, opened my spigot, let a quart or two runoff, then collected another shot glass full (only liquid of course). Measured the pH and this time it was right at 5.5. Thoughts?

 

[ajdelange]

I think the pertinent aspect of it given your experience is that a sample should be taken after thorough mixing if the most recent process is likely to cause a change pH. For example at dough in you are mixing water at a relatively high pH with grain which will lower it. If some of the water (that which stands at the top) doesn't get as much exposure to the grain meal its pH will likely be higher. Similarly, if you add some alkali it needs to be thoroughly mixed in before taking the sample for a pH check.

Mxing can sometimes be less thorough than you think it is. A good way to get insight is when returning a decoction. It will be darker than the rest mash and this lets you see whether it is thoroughly mixed or not.

The procedure I use is to stir the mash (if it hasn't been stirred already for some other reason) and then pick up a few mL of the mash with a small pot (designed for jobs like melting butter) which I then float in a sink of cold water to cool the sample. I when cool I tip it to get enough depth of sample at one side and then insert the pH electrode.

 

[hafmpty]

Somebody should write an app for this and put it up on Apple's App Store. I'd pay for it (as long as updates to the program came with updates to the spreadsheet). Who's up for it?!

 

[emjay]

Somebody should write an app for this and put it up on Apple's App Store. I'd pay for it (as long as updates to the program came with updates to the spreadsheet). Who's up for it?!

That's really a no-no without the permission of EZ Water's author.

 

[jkarp]

EZ Water's a bit quirky but generally works in Numbers on the iPad.

 

[joe4444]

Great spreadsheet, very intuitive, but there is one aspect I am not understanding.

Existing water: Calcium 35, Magnesium 12, Sodium 9, Chloride 15, Sulfate 27, Bicarbonate 124
w/ 1.5g gypsum: Calcium 58, Magnesium 12, Sodium 9, Chloride 15, Sulfate 82, Bicarbonate 124

Assume for example 4 gallons of mash water and 10 lbs 2-row for a pale ale. Without any acid, this gives an estimated room-temp pH of 5.76. After adding in 3ml of lactic acid, the pH is now the perfect 5.5. But this also changes the Effective Alkalinity to -131 and the RA to -179.

The question is: These numbers seem quite negative. What is really going on here, chemistry wise and resulting taste wise?

I know I could use Acidulated Malt or dilute my water to get into a more reasonable bicarbonate range, but considering this is way under the supposed taste threshold of 2 mL/gallon, I figured this to be by far the easiest approach. Should I not do this?

 

[ajdelange]

Don't really know but as the alkalinity is defined in terms of the amount of acid required to lower sample pH to a specified titration end point pH (usually 4.3) a negative alkalinity would mean that the sample being titrated would be at pH < 4.3 at the outset. If you put 3 mL of lactic acid in 4 gallons of DI water it will take the pH to 3.30 and the alkalinity for a 4.3 endpoint would be -83. As such it would usually be referred to as "the titratable acidity to end point [whatever the end point is]". The definition of RA is RA = alk - (effective_hardness)/3.5. Clearly it can be negative. Consider some gyspsum dissolved in distilled water. And clearly if you dissolved the gypsum in 4 gallons of water with the 3 mL of acid we just looked at it will be more negative still: -87 -(effective_hardness)/3.5.

It looks as if you are trying to figure out whether to just add enough acid to the water you have to get the pH low enough or dilute first and then add the acid. Part of the answer is that you will be able to use less acid in the latter case and in that case there will thus be less lactate floating around in the beer and also less bicarbonate. Bicarbonate doesn't taste very good and so this latter approach may seem appealing but the residual bicarbonate in either case would be quite low and I don't think that would be a major concern. Dilution will also, of course, dilute the calcium so you would need to add some of that back in. My real recommendation would be to do it both ways and use whichever gives the better beer thereafter. I'm guessing it wouldn't make that much difference.

 

[joe4444]

Thanks for the quick reply, it generally makes sense, and corroborates what I suspected. I do have one follow up. You said:

You will be able to use less acid in the latter case and in that case there will thus be less lactate floating around in the beer and also less bicarbonate. Bicarbonate doesn't taste very good and so this latter approach may seem appealing but the residual bicarbonate in either case would be quite low and I don't think that would be a major concern.

This makes it sound as if there will still be some bicarbonate in the water. So my question is: How does the math work in this situation?

I thought that Bicarbonate = Alkalinity * 1.22, and thus greater than alkalinity. In this situation where alkalinity is -131, is the bicarbonates equal to (-131*1.22)? Or since the alkalinity is negative and bicarbonate is suppose to be greater would you now do (-131/1.22)? Or does it even make sense to have negative bicarbonate? Thanks a lot for the help.

 

[ajdelange]

Get a beer and make yourself comfortable.

What I call collectively "carbo" comes in three forms carbonic, bicarbonate and carbonic. There is, unless some leaves the solution, a fixed amount of carbo in a water sample and it is distributed according to the pH. If a sample has one mmol of carbo per liter and the pH is 7 that mmol will be distributed (at 20 C) as follows:

0.194 mmol/L carbonic
0.806 mmol/L bicarbonate
0.0003 mmol/L carbonate

If you do things to mash and/or water such that the mash pH comes to 5.4 at say 50 °C the carbo will be redistributed as
0.924 mmol/L carbonic
0.076 mmol/L bicarbonate
0.000 mmol/L carbonate

Now of course it isn't quite that simple because much of that bicarbonate that converted to carbonic will in turn convert to carbon dioxide gas and leave the solution thus lowering the total carbo. One can extend the calculation to figure out how much that will be at thermodynamic equilibrium but that really complicates things and carbo systems in water are often not at thermodynamic equilibrium. For example, water from a typical well is often appreciably over saturated with carbonic (carbon dioxide) and thus out of equilibrium and can take days to reach it. But the message should be that acid does not convert all the biarbonate to carbonic. There is some bicarbonate residue. The distribution depends on pH, temperature and ionic strength but and the more you start with the more will be left. Poking some numbers into a spreadheet it looks as the difference between x and 2x original bicarbonate would amount to a pretty small number vs. twice a pretty small number at pH 5.2, at least it would be at equilibrium, and so, perhaps this isn't really that important a consideration.

At pH 8.3 below 8.3 the carbonate is less than 1% of the total carbo with the rest being in the other 2 forms. In potable and brewing water it is assumed that there are no other bases than bicarbonate present and this is where the tie-in between alkalinity and biarbonate ion comes in. In measuring alkalinity acid (H+) is added to the sample until pH 4.3 is reached at which pH 99.18 of the carbo has been converted to carbonic. The assumption is that this is all of it* so if you have 1 mEql/L bicarbonate it will take about 1 mmol/L acid to convert it and bicarbonate and alkalinity are thus equivalent. The equivalent weight of bicarbonate ion is 61 and it is standard practice to report alkalinity as 50 times the equivalence of the acid. Thus bicarbonate = 61*alkalinity/50. Above pH 8.3 this simple conversion does not work. The pH of the sample must be taken into account.

If you want the details of the math you can go to www.wetnewf.org and download the Cerevesia paper. If you want to try numbers you can download the spreadsheet there (be sure to get the User's Manual too) but it is not for the faint of heart.

*Another aspect which is usually ignored is that it takes some acid to move DI water to 4.3 from a higher pH. Thus DI water at pH 7 has an alkalinity of about 2.5 ppm as CaCO3.

 

[Yooper]

I have a question about the EZ calculator. I don't have Excel, so I've been using openoffice. It's worked just fine, but I had to restore my computer on Sunday and am re-downloading everything.

When I try to use the spreadsheet now, I get a green box around the pull down grain selections and I can't pick a grain. The "anchor" symbol shows, and it will not let me select a grain. I'm sure it's my error, but can someone explain how to work around this/fix it? I'd really appreciate it!

 

[samc]

I've found better luck using Libre Office with many Excel apps. I'm using a mac however so windows version may be different results.