EZ Water Calculator 3.0

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Love the new version TH! One thing that's always seemd odd to me is that none of the spreadsheets allow for making additions to the sparge water unless the same salt is being added to the strike water. Is there an easy explanation why this would be the case?

What you can do is simply type in your own value right overtop of the formula in the sparge water salt cell. This way you could have 0 in a mash salt cell but some value the the corresponding sparge salt cell in order to modify your total water. Does that make sense? (I'm having a hard time explaining this for some reason right now). Of course you would have to open a new copy of the spreadsheet if you ever wanted that formula to be there again (which in a nut shell answers your question of why it is the way it is - I know, it could be done with macros, but I won't put macros in EZ).
 
Thank you TH, this is the motivation I needed to finally look at my water profile. I see where I can add lactic acid to adjust my mash Ph. Should I also use approximately the same percentage to the sparge water?
 
I plugged the numbers in for my last 3 brews and my lighter beers were higher in EZ by .3 and the one dark beer was high .2 before the lime addition, .1 after.

Both lighter beers used 1/2 Rahr Pale ale as base (one was .5 rahr/.5 MO, the other .5Rahr/.5 wheat)

The Rahr was entered as Vienna base.
 
What you can do is simply type in your own value right overtop of the formula in the sparge water salt cell. This way you could have 0 in a mash salt cell but some value the the corresponding sparge salt cell in order to modify your total water. Does that make sense? (I'm having a hard time explaining this for some reason right now). Of course you would have to open a new copy of the spreadsheet if you ever wanted that formula to be there again (which in a nut shell answers your question of why it is the way it is - I know, it could be done with macros, but I won't put macros in EZ).

Makes perfect sense. Now I just have to remember not to save it with the overriden value in the cell.
 
I know the spreadsheet won't always be dead on every time, but I have to say your measured pH looks low to me for that water profile and grain bill (I assume the 5.39 is at room temp right?) I wouldn't think the large batch size would have anything to do with it, but who knows, maybe the mash hadn't mixed enough yet or the pH "leveled off" yet when the sample was taken? Or maybe the DI water mash pH for your Maris Otter is much lower than the 5.77 that Kai got for his. I don't know, maybe someone else (like AJ) has some ideas.

The sample was actually taken towards the end of the mash, probably 45 minutes in. It was cooled to about 80F before testing.
 
TH, thanks a lot for your hard work on this spreadsheet. I'm really new to water chemistry, but it makes it painless when we have all these great resources. Thanks!

I also have a specific question about adjusting my mash pH, but I don't want to hijack, so I started another thread.

TH, I will donate to you via paypal when you decide it's time to take donations. :mug:
 
I know there are a lot of factors coming into play when talking ph, and I’m absolutely not a water specialist.

I've used the EZ2.0 for a long time now and hit close to spot on very often. But the very dark porters always seemed to be a problem, when entering the beer color in EZ2.0 it would always send the PH way down, when doing black beers.
In the new version there are no color scale, is this because of the advanced malt calculations instead?

Did a Porter today, the old 2.0 calc. said PH 3.41 and V.3.0 said 5.49. I ended up at 4.9…. strange. I'm a little confused now :-(

Will the EZ 3.0 come in a metric format too?

Great work by the way, a very very very useful tool.
 
Not bad, not bad at all. I love this spreadsheet. I will be upgrading my ph meter shortly, the results may even be closer than they are now.

mash.png



2011-08-26_08-33-02_862.jpg
 
Thanx for all the hard work TH. I have used either exclusively, or mixed with other worksheets every version of EZ water so far. I am amazed at the changes in estimated PH on this version. I have to admit although I have a PH meter, I did not often use it. Having soft Seattle water the older water sheets all had me doing sizable boosts to alkalinity for stouts and such, that this one does not.

I'm exited to do another stout now with much smaller salt additions and see how it comes out.

Also +1 to the request for Nacl I use non iodized salt from time to time to round out the flavor in certain beers.

Mega Cheers!! :mug:
 
Thanks a lot for the software. It is really complete and helpful!

I would have a question on how to use it though...

Now that we can enter all these grains setting and that it give us an approximate of our pH, do we still have to worry about our residual alkalinity, or do we just have to watch our final pH?

I am brewing a dry stout. When my RA is low, my pH is good, but when I use additions to raise the RA, my pH gets too high...

Can anyone help me?
 
Thanks a lot for the software. It is really complete and helpful!

I would have a question on how to use it though...

Now that we can enter all these grains setting and that it give us an approximate of our pH, do we still have to worry about our residual alkalinity, or do we just have to watch our final pH?

I am brewing a dry stout. When my RA is low, my pH is good, but when I use additions to raise the RA, my pH gets too high...

Can anyone help me?

I wouldn't worry about your RA, unless you're adding a lot to your water to get that lower RA. The pH is primarily what's important.
 
When I add 1g gypsum, 2g calcium chloride, 1g epsom salt and 1g of chalk, I get RA : 38 (which seems very low) and pH 5.50.

If I want a RA of 200, I have to put 2.5g calcium chloride, 3g epsom salt, 4g baking soda and 4g of Chalk. It gives me RA : 200 and pH 5.65

Whatever I do to reduce my pH gets my RA very low
 
I would go with your first set of additions, but without the chalk. You may need to add a bit more calcium chloride or gypsum to get your calcium up to 50ppm, though. Don't worry about your RA being low. It's unlikely that your pH is going to be overly low.
 
I would go with your first set of additions, but without the chalk. You may need to add a bit more calcium chloride or gypsum to get your calcium up to 50ppm, though. Don't worry about your RA being low. It's unlikely that your pH is going to be overly low.

The thing that messes with my head is that according to John Palmer's nomograph, RA and pH are linked. But I don't thing it is always true in this calculator. Am I right?

Shouldn't I be raising the pH for brewing a stout since my water is not so hard...?
 
The thing that messes with my head is that according to John Palmer's nomograph, RA and pH are linked. But I don't thing it is always true in this calculator. Am I right?

Shouldn't I be raising the pH for brewing a stout since my water is not so hard...?

Palmer's nomograph is there as a general rule of thumb. In general, yes, darker beers can overcome more alkalinity, since the darker malts tend to have more acid in them. You may very well have to add some chalk, however you can't really be sure of that unless you have some way to measure your mash pH. Everything I've read on here says you're more likely to have too high of a pH than too low of a pH.

EDIT: Also, if you're worried about your pH getting too low in your mash, you could steep the dark grains in your boil kettle.
 
Alright! thank you for you answers!
I will get something to measure my pH in the future, for sure.

For the moment, since I can't measure it, I'll use some pH 5.2 just in case, since we can't predict exactly how the mash will react. But I still wanted to get as close to the target as possible for the future when I will try not to use it
 
Now that we can enter all these grains setting and that it give us an approximate of our pH, do we still have to worry about our residual alkalinity, or do we just have to watch our final pH?

RA was invented in order to enable brewers to compare brewing waters by allowing them to predict approximately what the pH of a base malt only mash would be relative to one made with distilled water. RA is just the alkalinity minus (calcium_hardness + magnesium_hardness/2)/3.5. When one adds things, especially grains, to the water one can still calculate an RA but it is difficult and no longer so good a predictor of mash pH. It is mash pH you are ultimately after whatever the RA turns out to be. If you are using a spreadsheet its author may very well have a mash pH model based on an RA calculation but that shoudn't concern you.

I am brewing a dry stout. When my RA is low, my pH is good, but when I use additions to raise the RA, my pH gets too high...

Can anyone help me?

The earliest spreadsheet, upon which the others built in one way or another, unfortunately tied RA to color a lot more tightly than it should have and had people shooting for RA's in the hundreds for beers of > 30 SRM color. The later ones do not do that to the same extent. As you can see from the definition of RA adding calcium or magnesium salts decreases RA whilst adding carbonates or bicarbonates increases it. In general you should not need additions of salts when brewing a dry stout. If you hold the roast barley to 30% or less your mash pH should be 5.2 or above with distilled water. Water with some alkalinity and/or grain bills with less roast barley (10% is a more reasonable number IMO) will give higher pH's - a little higher than you would really want but not so high that you need to add acid to offset.
 
Ok, thank you! I won't worry about the RA and keep an eye on my pH. Here's the results I got with EZ Water Calculator :

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4,83 / 4,04
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 15,0

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 2 / 0
MgSO4: 2,5 / 0
NaHCO3: 2,5 / 0
CaCO3: 1 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 83 / 59
Mg: 21 / 15
Na: 49 / 32
Cl: 76 / 52
SO4: 78 / 53
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0,98 / 0,98

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 195
RA: 124
Estimated pH: 5,58
(room temp)
 
Skip the bicarbonate and the chalk and you should be fine. You want a mash pH of 5.3 - 5.4. Roast barley at 10% should give you a pH of about 5.5 with distilled water. This is a bit high but OK. If you add the carbonate and bicarbonate it will be appreciably higher.
 
Maybe I'm getting it, but probably not. I've been following this EZ Calculator since version 1. I've been confused at times, but now seem a bit more clear. I've tried to read every thread on these calculators. Some of it I understand, some of it I don't. Based on what I am able to understand I'm hoping I'm beginning to see the light. So, AJ Delang, if you could let me know if I'm on track here:

1. I should forget all about the connection made between RA/SRM/pH from EZ Calculator Version 1 and 1.7.

2. The main thing I need to be concerned about is getting my mash pH in the right range and my Chloride:Sulfate ratio in the right range for the flavors I'm trying to accentuate.

3. Finally I should be concerned about making sure the minerals are within the recommended levels (i.e. Palmer's numbers).

If I do that, I'm good?

If this is true, here's my water recipe for Jamil Zainasheff's Black Forest Stout:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 28
Mg: 8
Na: 23
Cl: 28
SO4: 54
CaCO3: 56

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 5.15 /3.5
RO or distilled %: 0%/0%

Total Grain (lb): 16.5

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 4 / 0
MgSO4: 1.5/ 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 84 / 61
Mg: 15 / 12
Na: 23 / 23
Cl: 127 / 87
SO4: 84 / 72
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.51/1.21

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 56
RA: -13
Estimated pH: 5.55 (room temp)

Am I totally missing the boat here? It's hard when I see -13 RA to not think back to the original spreadsheet and think, "This WON'T work. I've got to get that higher!" Will you give me a bit of assurance (or chastisement) ...if possible. Thanks!
 
hafmpty - I sure hope you are right on, cause that's how I understand it too! I'll eagerly be watching for AJ's response. And to paraphrase him, we both should get a pH meter to be sure!
 
Any chance for a metric version like 2.0 had?

I had started on it, but then I ran into a snag somewhere so I quit for a while. I'll take another look when I get some time (could be a while - might have to do your own converting for now -sorry!)
 
1. I should forget all about the connection made between ra/srm/ph from ez calculator version 1 and 1.7.

2. The main thing i need to be concerned about is getting my mash ph in the right range and my chloride:sulfate ratio in the right range for the flavors i'm trying to accentuate.

3. Finally i should be concerned about making sure the minerals are within the recommended levels (i.e. Palmer's numbers).

If i do that, i'm good?

bingo!
 
1. I should forget all about the connection made between RA/SRM/pH from EZ Calculator Version 1 and 1.7.

2. The main thing I need to be concerned about is getting my mash pH in the right range and my Chloride:Sulfate ratio in the right range for the flavors I'm trying to accentuate.

3. Finally I should be concerned about making sure the minerals are within the recommended levels (i.e. Palmer's numbers).

1. Yes, forget that relationship. There is only a loose relationship and you can be misled by it.

2. Mash pH is the real goal. Focus your efforts there. Don't put too much emphasis on the ratio either. The ratio falls apart badly when the concentration of either Cl or SO4 get high (it mostly falls apart when Cl gets high though since high SO4 is acceptable in dry and hoppy beer styles).

3. Some of Palmer's ion recommendations are a little overboard. The minimum Mg content of 10 ppm is too high. There is plenty of evidence that 0 ppm Mg in the water is OK since malt adds Mg to the wort. I suggest that 5 ppm is a safe compromise. The maximum Na content of 150 ppm can get you into trouble and keeping that well below 100 ppm is a very good goal. There is NO minimum on bicarbonate concentration and the maximum is whatever it takes to produce an acceptable mash pH. In general, keep bicarbonate as low as possible. A minimum of 50 ppm SO4 is wrong too. There are plenty of beer styles than benefit from SO4 levels much lower than 50 ppm. The Cl maximum of 250 ppm is wildly over the top. The maximum Cl level should be around 100 ppm. Use Palmer's numbers with extreme caution. Many an Alka Seltzer beer has been created using those numbers.
 
Hey, Martin, do you have any good sources that provide more of the math and chemistry involved in describing pH and pH buffering, etc? I realize there is probably not one complete resource.
 
P.S. While I applaud the free nature of your spreadsheet, you should at least put up a PayPal donate button on the site. I'd certainly send you something for the hard work. It would at least help pay for the domain registration/hosting fees.

Yeah, I thought about doing that but felt kind of funny about it - don't know why really. Maybe I should.

Update: -TH- is too humble to mention it so I will... ;) He's added a "Donate" button to his http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/ website now. If you enjoy his free tool I'd recommend sending him something to show your appreciation.

Kal

P.S. I'm in no way affiliated with EZWaterCalculator or the author(s), just a happy user.

 
1. I should forget all about the connection made between RA/SRM/pH from EZ Calculator Version 1 and 1.7.

The earlier versions over emphasized this connection. The current version seems to be much improved (at least it matches some of my measurements and I've seen other guys report similarly accurate pH predictions in this forum).

2. The main thing I need to be concerned about is getting my mash pH in the right range

Yes, that's the sine qua non of brewing.


...and my Chloride:Sulfate ratio in the right range for the flavors I'm trying to accentuate.

You must get chloride and sulfate at the right levels for the flavor profile you want but the ratio concept isn't really the way to do it. Common sense tells you that a beer made with 1 mg/L sulfate and 1 mg/L chloride will be very different from one made with 200 mg/L sulfate and 200 mg/L chloride. Each has its effects and they do not counterbalance one another. What this means in practical terms is that you must experiment by varying the levels of each - not just the ratio.

3. Finally I should be concerned about making sure the minerals are within the recommended levels (i.e. Palmer's numbers).
Yes and no. Beer styles evolved as the best that could be done with the available water as the brewers that evolved them didn't have the tools or wisdom we have today. It is often the case that softer water (by which I mean here water with lower mineral content) will make a better beer than than water with properties similar to the water available to the original brewers of the style. The beer won't be as "authentic" perhaps and you may get dinged in a competition for being out of style but the beer may taste better to you or your guests.


If this is true, here's my water recipe for Jamil Zainasheff's Black Forest Stout:

While those additions won't hurt anything my inclination would be to do nothing to this water. I brew a fine (IMO) Irish stout with similar water with no additions and the pH comes to right about 5.5 with 10% roast barley. This isn't to say that you might not eventually arrive at chloride and sulfate additions which make a beer you like better but I'd start with the simplest treatment (no treatment) and work up from there.

It is seldom necessary to add Epsom salts. Malt contains a lot of magnesium (certainly plenty to serve as enzyme co-factor) and magnesium in excess tends to lend an unpleasant bitterness.


Am I totally missing the boat here? It's hard when I see -13 RA to not think back to the original spreadsheet and think, "This WON'T work. I've got to get that higher!" Will you give me a bit of assurance (or chastisement) ...if possible. Thanks!

That's because you have been conditioned to think that dark beers "require" a high level of alkalinity. Sometimes they do but not nearly as high as the early spreadsheets demanded.
 
Hey, Martin, do you have any good sources that provide more of the math and chemistry involved in describing pH and pH buffering, etc? I realize there is probably not one complete resource.

It's pretty thoroughly covered in the two part article on alkalinity and in the Cerevesia paper all of which can be found at www.wetnewf.org. These may be better than a textbook because the material is presented from the brewers perspective. All you need to know is how the Henderson Hasselbalch equation works for carbonic and the handfull of other acids we use (lactic, citric, phosphoric, sulfuric) so if you want a textbook look for one that has Henderson Hasselbalch in the index. Interestingly enough the most concise descriptions seem to be found in biochem texts.
 
ajdelange said:
It's pretty thoroughly covered in the two part article on alkalinity and in the Cerevesia paper all of which can be found at www.wetnewf.org. These may be better than a textbook because the material is presented from the brewers perspective. All you need to know is how the Henderson Hasselbalch equation works for carbonic and the handfull of other acids we use (lactic, citric, phosphoric, sulfuric) so if you want a textbook look for one that has Henderson Hasselbalch in the index. Interestingly enough the most concise descriptions seem to be found in biochem texts.

Danke!
 
Thank you TH, Martin and AJ. Your comments have really helped me. I'll take your advice on this beer AJ and I won't do any adjustments.

HOWEVER...I do have one question. When I started writing this question, I didn't intend for it to be so stinking long. Sorry in advance. AJ you say, "You must get chloride and sulfate at the right levels for the flavor profile you want but the ratio concept isn't really the way to do it." I understand that levels AND ratio are what I need to be looking at NOT ratio only.

So, then what levels am I looking for? If I'm brewing a stout (like I am) what levels am I looking for? What do you shoot for? I feel like if I could get my head around this, I'd be OK.

If I take the information I've read/seen/heard especially what I heard in the Brewing Network's Waterganza podcasts, tell me if I'm kind of on track (or totally in left field) with the following information:

Chloride accentuates maltiness
Sulfate accentuates bitterness

Chloride amounts between 0-250 is OK (acc. to Palmer)
Sulfate amounts between 50-350 is OK (acc. to Palmer)

As far as amounts go using TH's "very bitter," "bitter," "balanced," "malty," and "very malty" language from his v.1 & v.2 spreadsheets according to Palmer "bitter" beers have sulfate amounts in the 50-150 range and "very bitter" beers (APA & IPA) have sulfate amounts in the 150-350 range (acc. to Palmer).

Palmer doesn't say this, but it seems logical that "malty" beers would have chloride amounts in 150-200 range and "very malty" beers have chloride amounts in the 200-250 range.

OK, so if this is true (which maybe it's not?), then to get at least in the ballpark as far as a flavor profile I need to first see whether the beer I'm brewing is a hoppier, more bitter beer or a maltier, more sweet beer.

So take this Black Forest Stout I'll be brewing. This is obviously going to be a malty beer. Probably not super malty though like an Imperial Stout or Imperial Bock would be. So Chloride numbers for this beer should probably be in the 150-200 range.

Palmer mentioned in the Waterganza podcast this Chloride:Sulfate ratios breakdown:
>.5:1 - Very Bitter
.5-.75:1 - Moderately Bitter
.75-1.25:1 - Balanced
1.25-1.5:1 - Malty
1.5-2:1 - Very Malty

These are similar to the numbers TH used in his spreadsheet (at least up through v.2) Now, taking that range and using the Chloride:Sulfate ratio Palmer mentions in the Waterganza podcast I would want my Chloride:Sulfate ratio to be between 1.25:1 and 1.5:1.

So if my Chloride (to get the malty character) falls between 150-200 I would want my Sulfates to have a ratio between 1.25:1 and 1.5:1. This would mean that for Chlorides around the 150 mark, my Sulfates should fall somewhere between 100-120 for a 1.25-1.5:1 ratio. But if my Chlorides are higher around the 200 mark, my Sulfates should fall somewhere between 130-160 for a 1.25-1.5:1 ratio.

I am assuming there is a certain amount of experimentation that happens, but other than experimentation, is there any information on at least a starting point for experimenting with flavor profiles for the various styles?

Do you have any info for what you use in your brewing? What amount of Chloride do you have in your Stouts and Porters? What amount of Sulfate do you have in your IPAs and APAs? What ratio do you usually shoot for when getting your water ready?

Like I said, maybe I'm way off, but I feel like if I could get over this hurdle maybe I'd be able to figure this water thing out. Thanks in advance.
 
I understand that levels AND ratio are what I need to be looking at NOT ratio only.

If you get x correct and y correct then x/y will be defined. Beyond that I don't see much value in the ratio. The idea of a ratio is very appealing but it suggests that sulfate "cancels" chloride and conversely. This is because the chemical potential of an ion is related to the logarithm of its concentration (approximately). The mu_Cl = mu_Cl_0 + k*log([Cl-]) and mu_SO4 = mu_SO4_0 + k*log([SO4--]) where mu_X is the chemical potential of X, mu_X_0 is the chemical potential of X under some standard condition and [X] is the concentration (really the activity which is almost the same) of ion X. As log(x/y) = log x - log y a given value for the chloride sulfate ratio implies a fixed difference in the chemical potentials of the two species. Hence the implied cancellation i.e the implication that their effects are opposite.

So, then what levels am I looking for? If I'm brewing a stout (like I am) what levels am I looking for? What do you shoot for? I feel like if I could get my head around this, I'd be OK.

RE:
Chloride accentuates maltiness
Chloride (up to a point) makes the beer taste "rounder", fuller, smoother and sweeter. This is not what I would associate with malty. One controls maltiness by his choices of grains and how he mashes them. Chloride effects are in no way comparable to, for example, adding some special B or decocting at a high temperature as opposed to an infusion rest at 145 °F

Sulfate accentuates bitterness
Sulfate tends to render the bitterness "coarse" or "rough" (sort of grabs you in the back of the throat). It is, for example, pointless to waste your money on noble hops and use them in a high sulfate situation as you paid a premium for the "fine" bitterness of these cultivars. This is, a case where the ratio of sulfate to chloride is defined: it should be as close to 0 as possible. Bitterness is managed by choice of hop cultivar, charging amount and charging schedule. Sulfate will definitely have an effect on the perception of the hops though. This is why I usually advocate starting with a low sulfate level and increasing to see whether you like the effects of it or not. My writings on this subject are doubtless biased by the fact that I do not like sulfate. I built an RO system to get rid of 27 mg/L sulfate which is too much for me.


Chloride amounts between 0-250 is OK (acc. to Palmer)
Beers are certainly brewed over this range but many brewers, commercial and home, would be unhappy with a 0 level chloride. It was common practice in my youth to shake salt into beer. Lots of brewers add calcium chloride to their brews to increase the calcium (which is a good thing) but then give all the credit for improvement to the calcium. I believe much of it goes to the chloride. At the upper end of the range chloride is going to start adding a mineral (salty) quality to the beer. This is part of some styles. The appropriate level is what you like if you are striving to please yourself or whatever the style calls for if you are trying to win a competition.
Sulfate amounts between 50-350 is OK (acc. to Palmer)
German brewing texts would disagree that there should be at least 50 ppm sulfate given that they strive for the lowest sulfate level they can achieve (with exceptions, of course). As noted above I consider 27 mg/L ruinous to my beers (I'm mostly a lager brewer). Again the amount of sulfate you want is the amount that makes the beer most to your liking or as is typical for the style if you are putting the beer in contests.

As far as amounts go using TH's "very bitter,"...

Palmer doesn't say this, but it seems logical that "malty" ....
As I reject the notion that water controls a bitter vs malty axis I don't have much to say about what the amounts of the salts should be. Most of my beers are brewed with RO water to which some calcium chloride has been added. Some of the beers are bitter. Some are malty. Even in the bitter ones, though, the bitterness is fine because I've rejected sulfate. I can't abide that rough bitterness that, IMO, ruins so many craft beers. But please bear in mind that my practices reflect my tastes. Yours should reflect yours.

So take this Black Forest Stout I'll be brewing. This is obviously going to be a malty beer. Probably not super malty though like an Imperial Stout or Imperial Bock would be. So Chloride numbers for this beer should probably be in the 150-200 range.

The only kind of stout I really like or brew is the Guiness - like Irish stout which I certainly don't think of as malty. Even the Guiness tropical, which is certainly not an "Irish" stout because it is so rich beer at 7% ABV I don't think of as malty because the dark malt/roast barley flavors dominate. If you want to make it hoppier add more hops. If you want the hops to hit you in the face, up sulfate. If you want it maltier use more malt, use more crystal, melanoidin etc.



So if my Chloride (to get the malty character) falls between 150-200 I would want my Sulfates to have a ratio between 1.25:1 and 1.5:1. This would mean that for Chlorides around the 150 mark, my Sulfates should fall somewhere between 100-120 for a 1.25-1.5:1 ratio. But if my Chlorides are higher around the 200 mark, my Sulfates should fall somewhere between 130-160 for a 1.25-1.5:1 ratio.

I'm afraid you are still sold more on the power of the ratio concept than I believe is justified. Others might not share that opinion.


I am assuming there is a certain amount of experimentation that happens, but other than experimentation, is there any information on at least a starting point for experimenting with flavor profiles for the various styles?

I'm afraid cycles of brewing, drinking, adjusting and brewing again are the only way to find brewing Nirvana. I really advocate the KISS principal for the water. Take the water you've got, add some calcium chloride and brew the beer. I then recommend tweaking chloride and sulfate to explore the range of effects these ions can have (while,of course, being strict about mash pH control). But you need to understand the effects of different hops varieties and the different grains available to you. Obviously I've described a trade space that is bigger than you can realistically hope to explore. It took me 25 years to figure out how to brew a Pils I like (and you might not like it). Your only alternative is to rely on the experience of others. Ray Daniels "Designing Beers" has lots of statistical information about what home brewers have done and that's a good place to look.

Do you have any info for what you use in your brewing? What amount of Chloride do you have in your Stouts and Porters? What amount of Sulfate do you have in your IPAs and APAs? What ratio do you usually shoot for when getting your water ready?

I'm currently experimenting with the thesis that any beer is better with water that contains only calcium chloride, and not much of that, and traces of other ions. It certainly seems to work with the lagers and I don't brew many ales or stouts. The last stouts I did were with nominal tap water (about 80 ppm as CaCO3 calcium hardness, about 30 ppm Mg hardness, alkalinity of 70 or so, chloride at 7 and sulfate at 27). Nice beers but I want to try them with the RO as well. My last Kölsch was done with very soft water and that isn't quite ready to be critically tasted. Because of the soft water I used Saaz which makes the bitterness fine but the beer has that wonderful (but perhaps not in a Kölsch) spiciness that one gets from Saaz.

Like I said, maybe I'm way off, but I feel like if I could get over this hurdle maybe I'd be able to figure this water thing out. Thanks in advance.

I strongly advocate KISS here. The guys that gave you the spreadsheets are engineers who tend to over engineer things. This isn't meant to be a criticism of these gentlemen or the hard work they have done. I applaud and understand their desires completely as I am a member of the brotherhood. I used to do all that stuff with spreadsheets too but when Yooper asked me to write the Primer I realized that I was basically brewing per the Primer and not doing all the calculating and fine adjustment that I used to do. And my beers were better.
 
HOW! That's a lot to take in. I've got Daniels book. I'll have to look it over again as you recommend. It's crazy how deep this hobby can go. There is a lot going on in the creation of beer and even more in the creation of GOOD beer.

I'm going to take your advice on the KISS method. I think what I'll do from now on is brew the beer with only the salt/acid additions necessary to get the pH in the right spot (which means I'll need to get a pH meter to properly monitor this during the brew session). After that, I'll taste and experiment by varying the levels of chloride and sulfate if/as necessary.

I don't enter my beers in contests, so that's not the reason for my questions. I just want my beers to be tasty...something that can compete with some of my favorite micro-brews.

Keep us up-to-date on the status of your experiment with water with only calcium chloride and trace amounts of the other ions.

Thanks again AJ for taking the time to answer my questions. It's really helpful.
 
Chloride accentuates maltiness
Sulfate accentuates bitterness

Use care here. Those ions only improve the perception of those qualities. They do not make beers 'maltier' or 'bitterer'.


Chloride amounts between 0-250 is OK (acc. to Palmer)
Sulfate amounts between 50-350 is OK (acc. to Palmer)

I do not know where an allowable Cl concentration of 250 ppm comes from. The highest Cl concentration in any desirable brewing water from around the world has less than 140 ppm Cl. That is from Dortmund which is known for minerally character in beers brewed there. In my opinion, Cl should generally be below 100 ppm and shouldn't exceed 150 ppm ever. There is no minimum SO4 concentration, so don't be afraid to have less than 50 ppm SO4. That upper limit to SO4 is a good practical limit in hoppy beers. Do not use Burton profiles unless you really want to experiment. Plenty of brewers before you have come to the conclusion that 300 to 350 ppm SO4 is a good upper limit.


Palmer doesn't say this, but it seems logical that "malty" beers would have chloride amounts in 150-200 range and "very malty" beers have chloride amounts in the 200-250 range.

So if my Chloride (to get the malty character) falls between 150-200 I would want my Sulfates to have a ratio between 1.25:1 and 1.5:1. This would mean that for Chlorides around the 150 mark, my Sulfates should fall somewhere between 100-120 for a 1.25-1.5:1 ratio. But if my Chlorides are higher around the 200 mark, my Sulfates should fall somewhere between 130-160 for a 1.25-1.5:1 ratio.

These are misuses of the ratio that I mentioned above. You can't create malty or bitter perceptions by applying that SO4/Cl ratio blindly. If either ion is already moderate to high, adding a bunch more of the other ion to get the ratio right is a sure way to create an Alka Seltzer beer.

As both AJ and I imply and state repeatedly, the best way to good brewing water is to keep your ionic content relatively low and don't let the resulting brewing water get in the way of creating good beer.
 
Should we try to lower our (fly) sparge water before using it? Or will the grain still be able to lower the sparge water's pH so that it doesn't extract tannins
 
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