Exploring "no chill" brewing

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If a guy wanted to use a bucket for no chill, or slow chill rather, could he rack into the bucket and then put the aeration hose through the grommet in the lid, attach the diffusion stone, put the lid on and use that for the suck back as the wort cools? HEPA filter attached and high heat hose of course. This way once the wort is cooled you can aerate, pitch and be done.


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I can see that as being a concern too so maybe racking wasn't the proper term. I transfer using the ball valve on my kettle with proper type and length of hose to prevent aeration of wort before cooling.


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That's a great idea but my concern would be "marinating" the diffusion stone and hose that long. When I aerate with my O2 kit, I am always worried about the stone sanitation (so I boil it every time). When I was doing no-chill, I used the "1-piece, S-shaped Bubblers" filled with good starsan. Seemed to work great. That said I still wouldn't insert the airlock bubbler until the bucket was in its "permanent" resting spot....hot buckets do a lot of "oil-canning" when you move them. I would cover the grommet hole with starsan soaked paper towel but it often got blown off...
I also ended up drilling all my bucket lids to accept silicon stoppers so I could aerate and pitch through a bigger hole and not have to remove the lid. I can also stuff a drop hop bag through that hole when I need to.
Here's another idea...one time I put whole hops in the bucket before the hot wort. Some have compared this to whirlpool hops additions. Then a couple days later racked to a new bucket, aerated and pitched. That batch had an amazingly smooth hop flavor that I have been unable to reproduce with "flame-out/whirlpool" additions. I've even tried chilling to 185*, hopping for 10 minutes, then chilling the rest of the way, Might have been a fluke but if I were still no-chilling I would experiment more with this for an IPA or APA. (just a couple tips..fwiw)

Despite all that, I never had an infection. But in the end I went back to immersion chiller because I didn't like having to go through yet another "session" of brewing work on a different day. No-chill is great to shorten the brew day but that time doesn't really go away. I noticed no difference in beer flavor from using no chill.

As I get older I can foresee shedding gear and brewing less...I will sell the chiller and go back to no-chill.
 
As far as "marinating" I thought about that too. I would just have to make sure it is boiled and cleaned very well each use.

I like the idea of the silicone stopper in the lid too. Would be pretty handy for many reasons. Pitching, sampling, etc.

I brew after my kids go to bed, usually on weekends, so shortening the brew day is the reason for the no chill. I don't mind the next day "session."


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Sorry I am getting into this a bit late, but would appreciate any input on my plan to simplify my system.

I am planing a 12 gallon batch.

1. In the kettle I would only boil 10 gallons. After boil has finished I would remove the hops and then add 2 gallons of cold water. This should drop the temperature to about 185.

2. Open the kettle tap and drain the full 12 gallons into a 15 gallon Sanke keg (sitting in the fermentation chamber), complete with spunding valve.

3. Pressurize the hot keg until the spunding valve releases at about 20 psi. (So that the keg does not develop a vacuum as it cools)

4. Leave lid open on the fermentation chamber until temperature has dropped significantly and then start the "black box" temperature control to slowly ramp to pitching temperature. Pressure will drop to about 15 psi.

5. The next day connect a pump to recirculate, drawing from the liquid port and spraying into the gas port, still under 15 psi. This will help the cool wort absorb oxygen from the pressurized air.

6. Release the pressure to add the Yeast and Fermcap and then repressurize to 5 psi for fermentation.

7. Raise pressure and temperature as fermentation continues according to profile in the "black box".


This would remove the immersion cooler step and allow a larger batch. It would move the aeration step into the next day and keep it internal.

Has anyone done something similar and have any suggestions?


Tom
 
Tegra said:
3. Pressurize the hot keg until the spunding valve releases at about 20 psi. (So that the keg does not develop a vacuum as it cools)

4. Leave lid open on the fermentation chamber until temperature has dropped significantly and then start the "black box" temperature control to slowly ramp to pitching temperature. Pressure will drop to about 15 psi.

5. The next day connect a pump to recirculate, drawing from the liquid port and spraying into the gas port, still under 15 psi. This will help the cool wort absorb oxygen from the pressurized air.
Click to expand...

If you are pressurizing with CO2 (I would imagine you are) then you can't really recirculate to aerate, aerating with CO2 doesn't do anything for the yeast. If you are pressurizing with O2 or air from a compressor, I think you are probably asking for an infection.

I'd also be slightly concerned that you are cooling the wort down to 185 by adding room temp/cold water. Part of the reason that No Chill works is because of the almost boiling temps that wort is put in to the fermenters at. It sanitizes/pasteurizes with heat, kind of like water bath canning. Maybe boil those 2 gallons of water (compensating for evaporation) and drop them in to the fermenter hot?
 
Thanks for the reply. Please correct me if I get the science wrong but I believe the two concerns are taken care of.

I will pressurize with air. I would think that my previous method of bubbling air for 30 minutes would have more "nasties" then a single shot to pressurize? If we think worst case and consider that the air may be horribly contaminated it will be subjected to the steaming wort at about 185 degrees. I understand that pasteurizing takes place at 161 degrees for 15 seconds. Do you think there could still be something living at 185 degrees?

The same situation with the added water, it has been chlorinated and filtered but will also be posterized upon introduction to the wort. The purpose of this addition is to allow more room in the kettle for BIAB a and boiling. I am also not comfortable moving boiling liquid around and the 185, although still scaling is somehow more comforting to me.

I still have small concerns with the circulating pump but if I do a thorough clean and sanitize I think I will be ok. (Alternatively I could just rock the keg to get the oxygen dissolved, either by hand, a shaking machine or some kind of giant stir plate.)

My objective is to remove any siphoning or open containers and make the process cleaner.

Tom
 
Tegra said:
Thanks for the reply. Please correct me if I get the science wrong but I believe the two concerns are taken care of.

I will pressurize with air. I would think that my previous method of bubbling air for 30 minutes would have more "nasties" then a single shot to pressurize? If we think worst case and consider that the air may be horribly contaminated it will be subjected to the steaming wort at about 185 degrees. I understand that pasteurizing takes place at 161 degrees for 15 seconds. Do you think there could still be something living at 185 degrees?

The same situation with the added water, it has been chlorinated and filtered but will also be posterized upon introduction to the wort. The purpose of this addition is to allow more room in the kettle for BIAB a and boiling. I am also not comfortable moving boiling liquid around and the 185, although still scaling is somehow more comforting to me.

I still have small concerns with the circulating pump but if I do a thorough clean and sanitize I think I will be ok. (Alternatively I could just rock the keg to get the oxygen dissolved, either by hand, a shaking machine or some kind of giant stir plate.)

My objective is to remove any siphoning or open containers and make the process cleaner.

Tom
Click to expand...

The only thing you can do is try it out and see if it works. Just me, but I wouldn't use air without a "sanitary filter". Maybe you're already using one? I'm not sure if they are rated for pressure, but some folks use them on O2 systems I believe so that should be OK.

I like to be sanitary if possible, but if pasteurization works for you then so be it. Again, give it a shot and let us all know how it works out.

Cheers! :mug:
 
Tom,
I feel what your proposing is fine, even if you may be overthinking it a bit :). IMO only of course.

Infecting wort at 185 degrees should not be a great worry, nor the small amount of air for aeration prior to pitching the yeast.

Traditional no chill goes to greater lengths to insure sanitary conditions as some of these people pitch yeast weeks or even months later. IMO worrying about the few pints of air / contamination that may happen while the cooling wort shrinks in volume is not a concern if your intention is to pitch yeast as soon as you reach temps.

I simply no chill in my kettle with the lid on and have never had an issue, I do always pitch yeast ASAP within say 12 - 24 hours.

Of course in theory a few bugs may find their way in, but not near enough compete with a billion healthy yeast cells?

IME the process can be relaxed a little IF you intend to pitch right away rather than storing the wort long term.

Fwiw all my beers are kegged and stored cold within say 2 weeks of brewing, perhaps if I were bottling and aging for extended periods my casual approach could show flaws. IDK and will likely never find out.

Cheers!
Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/
 
Wilserbrewer:

I am all about overthinking to make it simpler!

Pulling the hops and cooling in the kettle may be the way to go for me. If I strip off the insulation off the keggle, how soon will it drop to room temperature?

Tom
 
How cold is the room? How big is the batch?

Just guessing here but my 8 gallon batches are around 90 degrees after 10 - 12 hours, at this point I either load in the ferm chamber fridge to chill mid sixties, place in a swamp chiller with some ice, or lately I have been putting 2 - 3 frozen 2 liter soda bottles in the wort to finish the chill, sanitized prior to adding to the kettle.

I know it's a little rough and goes against conventional practice, but it's easy and seems to work for me.

My brew session pretty much ends at flame out, then I leave the kettle uncovered for an hour or so and usually add some hops at 160 -170, then cover and ignore kettle till the following morning or evening...usually around 12 hours.

Many many years ago when I started brewing I felt that it was crucial to pitch yeast ASAP, and was even pitching warm in haste, fast forward and now I feel the opposite, that it is much better to patiently wait till you are at the lower end of the temp range for the given yeast.

I don't really fear infection perhaps as much as I should...but just my opinion the post boil kettle is pretty sanitary and not really in grave danger right away.

Beers may initially have a bit more protein haze with this approach, but after a week or two in the cold keg the beer clears out nicely.

Have fun !



Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/
 
So just to clarify, you keep the cooling wort in the boil kettle till 80-90~ instead of transferring to a cube/bucket/airtight container? That sounds wonderful to me, as it'll stop me from having to lift boiling wort and pouring which is both difficult, and potentially dangerous.
 
I like that concept!

I have a Refectix wrap on my kettle that I can easily strip off (actually I should every time to clean, but have skipped this and had to deal with the slime later) and a large fan that I can set to low to speed the cooling as I would like to pitch early next day. (Not out of fear of infection but because I don't want to wait any longer than necessary to drink the beer)

Tom
 
Like Wilserbrewer, I too "overnight chill" in the kettle...

I do stovetop BIAB... 6.5 gallon batches in a 10 gallon kettle.

After flameout and any flameout additions, I'll put the kettle in my sink for a water bath. I'll change out the water a couple of times just to get it cool enough that I can carry it outside without scalding myself in case of a mishap. I use little office binder clips to keep any critters from knocking the lid off overnight. I've done the no-chill hops adjustments, but lately I just use a hops bag (made by wilserbrewer, I might add) and pull the bag after a little while in the water bath.

I'm usually in the upper 70's or low 80's 12-18 hours later depending on overnight temps. Works better in Winter, obviously :)

I transfer to a sanitized fermenter and use a swamp cooler with ice bottles to get the rest of the way down to pitching temps.

It's been working out well for me for quite a while.... Not to say I wouldn't use a chiller if I had one to get to temps faster, but since no-chill works so well, I'm taking my time collecting the pieces to build a CFC.
 
Exactly, lately I have been enjoying brewing with what I would like to call, "passive chilling", I know it goes against the common repertoire, but it works so long as you keep a eye on sanitation.

Rather than obsess and monkey around with a chiller, and I do own one...
I have found it easier to let the wort passively chill and deal with it on my schedule, within 12-15 hours.


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/
 
Gonna try no-chill in the kettle with my next IPA. It will have 6oz of hops at flame out. Should be fun.
 
yeah, keep in mind that those flameout hops are going to be sitting in hotter wort for a longer time when you no-chill than if you were rapidly reducing temps with a chiller.

You'll get more bitterness and less flavor/aroma than you might be expecting... If you poke around the no-chill threads you can find a chart made by "The Pol", I think, that shows one method of adjusting your hop additions to account for the longer time at higher temps.

Most bittering additions are shortened by 20 minutes, some flavor/aroma addtions are moved to flameout, and some flameout additions are moved to dry hop.

Just google for "no-chill hops adjustment" or "no-chill hops schedule" and look for the chart.
 
I'm not too concerned about it being more bitter. Beersmith calculated the recipe at 160+ IBU already.
 
ok...I dont have the time or patience to read 130 plus pages...tomorrow I am brewing my black ipa...and on planning a rws with a no chill as in pitch 24 hrs later...no cube just sit in my brewpot....question do I leave my hop bags in the wort for the 24 hrs? or remove them...thankx Tom
 
tnsen said:
ok...I dont have the time or patience to read 130 plus pages...tomorrow I am brewing my black ipa...and on planning a rws with a no chill as in pitch 24 hrs later...no cube just sit in my brewpot....question do I leave my hop bags in the wort for the 24 hrs? or remove them...thankx Tom
Click to expand...

I've done both. Lately I've been pulling the bag. If I have a flameout addition, I'll leave it for a while before pulling. I cool in the sink for a little while before carrying outside to "slow chill"... Just until it's cool enough to carry without scalding myself. I usually pull the bag right before carrying outside.

There's a chart made by The Pol for how to adjust your hop schedule to account for the extra time at higher heat for the no chill. When I've left the hops in during the overnight chill, I've used The Pol's chart. When I pull my bag (ouch!) I just use a regular hop schedule.

It's mostly shifting bittering additions by 20 minutes And shifting late aroma additions to dry hop. Google for "no chill hops schedule" and use should find it.
 
The chart is what I do for no chill, period.

And the term RWS is still around?! Jees. I'm amazed.
 
I need some help with the hop addition chart. I'm planning on brewing this recipe: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/blood-moon-ipa-471019/

1 ounce Cascade @60min
1/2 ounce each of Cascade, Citra and Galaxy @15min
1/2 ounce each of Cascade, Citra and Galaxy @5min
1 ounce each of Cascade, Citra and Galaxy (Dryhop for 6 days after fermentation complete)

What should I do for the FWH? This is an extract brew so I was wondering if I should add those hops with my bag of grains.
 
Zerocrew1984 said:
I need some help with the hop addition chart. I'm planning on brewing this recipe: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/blood-moon-ipa-471019/

1 ounce Cascade @60min
1/2 ounce each of Cascade, Citra and Galaxy @15min
1/2 ounce each of Cascade, Citra and Galaxy @5min
1 ounce each of Cascade, Citra and Galaxy (Dryhop for 6 days after fermentation complete)

What should I do for the FWH? This is an extract brew so I was wondering if I should add those hops with my bag of grains.
Click to expand...

I've never done an extract no-chill, but if I had to guess, I'd throw the FWH in while steeping your grains, and leave them in throughout the brew.

If you follow the chart linked in the first post, your hop schedule would look like:

1/2 oz each Cascade, Citra, and Galaxy - FWH (actually less - you'll have to recalculate IBUs as 30 min addition)
1 oz Cascade - 40 min
1.5 oz each hop - dry hop

I usually calculate my FWH as a 20 minute addition, but that's my impression on my system. Start with it as a 30 min and adjust accordingly.
 
Thanks for your help! I do a full boil as my stove top sucks but still doing extract as it is my second batch and I don't want to buy extra stuff quite yet. I didn't even think about calculating ibu's.
 
My god I can't believe I read that entire thread :) anyways I've been wanting to do this method for a long while now. Since I've started brewing I've hated the cooling of the wort. I live in Colorado and it's always bothered me wasting all of that water, water is precious here in the west. I've already ordered my plastic containers and can't wait to give this a shot. When I started brewing I thought I needed all of the latest and greatest equipment to brew great beer. I was wrong. I started out extract, then BIAB, then I made a mash tun, bought the latest and greatest kettle, immersion chillers, etc. Brewing got to be more of a chore than fun. Recently I've gone back to BIAB and my last few brews I've just sat my brew kettle outside for a few hours to cool and beers have turned out great. So much simpler, less cleanup, less time, all in all having a lot more fun again.

Oh and I've even gone back to bottling most of my beers even though I own several kegs. Funny how works.
 
Powerturn11 said:
My god I can't believe I read that entire thread :) anyways I've been wanting to do this method for a long while now. Since I've started brewing I've hated the cooling of the wort. I live in Colorado and it's always bothered me wasting all of that water, water is precious here in the west. I've already ordered my plastic containers and can't wait to give this a shot. When I started brewing I thought I needed all of the latest and greatest equipment to brew great beer. I was wrong. I started out extract, then BIAB, then I made a mash tun, bought the latest and greatest kettle, immersion chillers, etc. Brewing got to be more of a chore than fun. Recently I've gone back to BIAB and my last few brews I've just sat my brew kettle outside for a few hours to cool and beers have turned out great. So much simpler, less cleanup, less time, all in all having a lot more fun again.

Oh and I've even gone back to bottling most of my beers even though I own several kegs. Funny how works.
Click to expand...

You don't really think that those brewers from 400 years ago had immersion chillers, now do you? They didn't even have airlocks! How bad was the beer that they made?:D

Yes, we have made brewing more complicated, much more than necessary it seems.:rockin:
 
RM-MN said:
You don't really think that those brewers from 400 years ago had immersion chillers, now do you? They didn't even have airlocks! How bad was the beer that they made?:D



Yes, we have made brewing more complicated, much more than necessary it seems.:rockin:
Click to expand...


Totally agree. I think everyone tends to over complicate the process to make a good beer. View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1427157721.771328.jpg this is my last no chill BIAB irish red.
 
What do you think of this twist.......?

We already have some that passively cool in the kettle and then transfer and pitch the next day. It has been suggested that you might transfer only half of the wort and pitch a single pack of yeast into this smaller amount in the fermenter. The next day, after the yeast has built up its population and is beginning its work, you would add the rest of the wort to the fermenter. (This is not my idea and forgive me if this has already been thrashed around)

This will do away with the need the need for extra yeast or a starter. (In essence you are making a monster starter. (I read that this actually the way some brewing is done. Although this does seem complicated, depending on how you transfer it could actually simplify the process?

It was presented as a way to save a few bucks, but I think it would also save some mucking about with starters.

Anyone tried this? (I am thinking of trying on my next batch just to say I have)

Tom
 
I, and many others on this forum, have repeatedly just pitched dry yeast into a batch with very satisfactory results. As in some of the most recent posts...this feels like complicating the process to me. Now if you were brewing some kind of super-clean beer for a competiton or something, this might make sense. But then would you be no-chilling?
I have often pitched right on to the foam layer created by my "aeration" methods (sometimes shaking, sometimes O2) and I have seen action in the air locks within hours. I am no award-winning brewer but I read a fair amount. There is a TON of interesting science around yeast...but "simple" has advantages too.
 

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