Exploring "no chill" brewing

[CalmYourself]

Are you sure that this is not just hop-debris and CO2 from the hops.

When I dry hop in the primary, I will get quite a bit of airlock activity afterwards..

Fairly certain. I'm not sure what the OG was since I was going to take a sample just before pitching. I'll check the SG in about a week to confirm. Should be easy enough to see if it's been fermening or not.

By the looks of it, it seems you have way too much headspace.
Also you are going into the cube right after the boil and sealing it?
Are you rotating the cube so that all surfaces are hit with the boiling hot wort?
With all that headspace, if you open it up after 90 minutes you are losing your sterile conditions by allowing contaminates into it, which can probably survive in the airspace and cooler condition.. probably where you getting your spontaneous fermentation.
Unless you are going to pitch you shouldn't be opening it after sealing it with hot wort.

I do have a lot of headspace, plan on getting a slightly smaller cube before the next batch.
Yes, I'm going straight into cube right after boil and sealing directly after.
No, I didn't rotate the cube. I'll stand it upside down for 20 mins next time after transferring.
I'm never going to open a cube again unless for pitching purposes.

Juvinious covered the bases pretty well.

To add, perhaps being redundant at times-

- no-chill in a container that’s about the same size as your brew. Brewing a 19 liter batch- no-chill in a 20 liter cube. (Some brewers ferment in the same container as they no-chill, and therefore need about 4 liters more head-space… but I would try to fix the sanitation problem first.)

-make sure the cube *and cap* are both absolutely clean before you begin.

-after filling the cube, push out any airspace before closing the cap.

-set the cube on its side part of the time when the wort is near boiling, to kill any bugs that may be in the nooks and crannies of the top and cap.

-don’t open the cube until you’re ready to pitch.

Oh, it’s odd that your brew went that far south in just a couple days. It’s almost like the hops you added were coated in cow spit or something.

As to whether you should save it- ??? why not? It probably isn't going to kill you.

Cube size is changing ASAP!

Both cube and cap were THOROUGHLY cleaned and sanitized.

Will do!

I got the hops 3 days before and stuck them straight in the freezer. I can only assume they were coated in some yeast floating around the LHBS while they were re-packaging them.

And: I'm going to keep it, the worst batch I've ever made has suddenly started tasting good so I'm going to try the patience thing and see what happens.

 

[jeffmeh]

Here's a quick update on my first no chill, FWIW.

I checked the gravity tonight, down to FG of 1.010. The sample was very tasty, even though I had yet to add the 1 oz. Cascade pellet hops that I moved from 2 minute boil to dry hop for the no chill adjustment. I added the hops to the primary, and plan on giving them 3 more days or so at 63 deg F, then cold crash at around 35 deg F for another 4 days or thereabouts before racking to keg. So far so good.

Brewed 11/14, pitched from real wort starter on 11/15, began dry hop on 12/3....

I welcome any suggestions from the veterans.

Here's the final update. The no-chill California Common is kegged in the keezer, carbonating. The sample tastes great. I am going to stick with no-chill if it keeps working out like this.

Brewed 11/4.
Pitched real wort starter on 11/5.
Dry-hopped 12/3.
Cold-crashed 12/8.
Racked to keg 12/20. I took it out of cold-crash on 12/12, expecting to rack it the next day, but life intervened.

 

[nbspindel]

DONE! 3 days, 3 hours a day, and 682 posts under my belt.

at pg 25 i decided to turn yesterday's brew into no chill. i ferment under pressure (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/closed-system-pressurized-fermentation-technique-44344/) so my day went like this:

normal 10 g brew of irish red ale (first time brewing this extract with steeping grains), besides boiling 90 instead of 60 minutes, and i adjusted wort additions from 60 min to 40 min, and 30 min to 10 minutes. whirlpooled and covered my keggle. Finished sanitizing my sankey keg which i plan to no chill in, then use as sealed fermenter. To avoid collapsing the keg, i put a dry airlock (stuffed with starsan soaked cotton balls)/bung into the spear hole. 24 hrs and temps are at 72*F. Aerate for 1 hr with aquarium aerator (1 hr because i dont yet have an airstone), then rocked it around a bit. Good foam on top. Pitch rehydrated yeast.

I hope this works out right; the waste of so much water during cooling has bugged me since i started brewing. Not to mention, i don't want my backyard to fill with water then freeze over!

Here are my questions:
1. how do you recalculate the flavor hop quantities that get moved to the FWH? I understand timing of the rest of the hops, and will research on my own how the hops are affected for flavor whether they are FWH or at the end, but I saw that the quantity changes to get the same perceived IBU from the hop. Is there a simple way to figure out a general IBU for me to do this on the fly? and what's the difference for FWH values?

2. The POL put his into his program (forgot the name). I use beersmith, and the tools-options section allows for adjustment to bitterness, particularly FWH additions. However, when i experiment with it, it treats FWH just like normal additions, meaning the IBU is calculated equally if it's a FWB or a 60 min bittering addition. Anyone figured this out in beersmith?

tks

 

[The Pol]

I use ProMash...

I went into the settings and changed the utilization for FWH so that it equals that of a 20 minute addition. Now when I use FWH in ProMash it tells me what my percieved IBUs will be when using it.

Simple
Elegant

 

[jds]

2. The POL put his into his program (forgot the name). I use beersmith, and the tools-options section allows for adjustment to bitterness, particularly FWH additions. However, when i experiment with it, it treats FWH just like normal additions, meaning the IBU is calculated equally if it's a FWB or a 60 min bittering addition. Anyone figured this out in beersmith?

tks

In the detail screen, you can set the hop use and boil time separately. For FWH, I indicate them as FWH with the "use" dropdown, then set the boil time for 20 minutes. It seems to get the numbers right that way.

 

[rca]

I'm trying to figure out the procedure for making a Real Wort Starter.

1. With a 5 gallon batch size how much wort do you use to make a starter?
2. If I was going to use a dry yeast, like S-04 or S-05 is a RWS a good idea? Necessary?
3. Do you use a stir plate for the starter (I think in the Pols case yes)?
4. What's the actual procedure:

a. Do you drain straight from the kettle into the flask?
b. Cool to pitching temp
c. Pitch yeast
d. Put on stir plate until it ferments out. How long is this usually?
e. Dump whole flask into wort?

Did I miss anything? If you are doing a no chill, is the RWS ready in 24 hours to pitch? It looks like it is from everybody's comments, but the it doesn't seem like enough time to me.

Thanks.

Ron

 

[teach]

I've also been wondering about the RWS. Thanks for asking this.

 

[nbspindel]

the pol and jds,

got it. i see now what has to change and how it does make the difference. tks.

 

[The Pol]

I'm trying to figure out the procedure for making a Real Wort Starter.

1. With a 5 gallon batch size how much wort do you use to make a starter?
I used 1L for most batches.
2. If I was going to use a dry yeast, like S-04 or S-05 is a RWS a good idea? Necessary?
Id say no, really... dry yeast are better off used dry
3. Do you use a stir plate for the starter (I think in the Pols case yes)?
It is ideal, but before I had the plate, I didnt and it worked fine
4. What's the actual procedure:

a. Do you drain straight from the kettle into the flask?
b. Cool to pitching temp
c. Pitch yeast
d. Put on stir plate until it ferments out. How long is this usually?
e. Dump whole flask into wort?

Yes to all except E. If you use a stir plate, you are constatnly aerating the starter and thusly the wort/beer that is being made in it. I do NOT pitch anything but the slurry in those cases. If you are using no stir plate, you can pitch the entire volume, and I do... you arent aderating the fermenting wort.

Did I miss anything? If you are doing a no chill, is the RWS ready in 24 hours to pitch? It looks like it is from everybody's comments, but the it doesn't seem like enough time to me.

Sure it is. If you are using a stir plate it will be fermented out before that in many case. I have had 1.055 starters do to 1.011 in less than 24 hours. If you are not using a stir plate, it may not be fermented out, but you will pitch at high krausen in most cases, which is just fine too.



Thanks.

Ron

Hope that helps

 

[rca]

Pol,

That helps a lot, thanks for explaining. Now I need to pull the trigger on a couple of Winpaks.

Ron

 

[The Pol]

Pol,

That helps a lot, thanks for explaining. Now I need to pull the trigger on a couple of Winpaks.

Ron

IMHO, Winpaks are the best fermenting vessels out there if you arent pimping SS conicals. They are cheap, unbreakable, heat resistant, light and come with a handle.

 

[ghpeel]

My only complaint about my 5 gal winpack is that there is always a quart of 2 of liquid that can't be poured out because of the position of the lip. I can shake it around really hard to slosh it out eventually, but I can't collect that wort without risking contamination. So I'm just going to plan my no-chills to end up at about 4.5 gallon and add a half gallon of water back at either pitching time or bottling time.

 

[The Pol]

Oh, I just ferment in the Winpak that I chill in.

 

[Jonnio]

My only complaint about my 5 gal winpack is that there is always a quart of 2 of liquid that can't be poured out because of the position of the lip. I can shake it around really hard to slosh it out eventually, but I can't collect that wort without risking contamination. So I'm just going to plan my no-chills to end up at about 4.5 gallon and add a half gallon of water back at either pitching time or bottling time.

If your going to add water do it at pitching time or you will have watery beer. To plan for 4.5 gal - boil longer to get a more concentrated wort (adjust hops as needed) and then add in water to put it back to the intended OG when you pitch your yeast. (Assuming all grain)

 

[matthendry]

Do what the Aussie Wort kit manufactures do and make a higher gravity higher hopped wort then they tell their customers to add water to make a beer to style .

http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/articles_other/wortkit_summary.htm

 

[chucke]

My only complaint about my 5 gal winpack is that there is always a quart of 2 of liquid that can't be poured out because of the position of the lip. I can shake it around really hard to slosh it out eventually, but I can't collect that wort without risking contamination. So I'm just going to plan my no-chills to end up at about 4.5 gallon and add a half gallon of water back at either pitching time or bottling time.

If you want a 5-gallon container that will allow you to pour all the wort out, consider an Ecoset. It has the "patented total emptying design."

Of course, no-chilling *and* fermenting in a 6-gallon Winpak negates the need to pour it all out.

 

[KopyKat]

I use these. Pour is 100% and will swell when hot wort is poured in to almost 5.5 gallon if you wish.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=25633&catid=816

 

[tincob]

Just did a NC Scottish Ale extract kit over the weekend for the first time.

Being my first NC experience, I went through a comedy of errors trying to siphon the boiling hot wort from the BK to the Winpak. I have a 32 gal aluminum pot, stainless steel racking cane and some silicone tube.

I filled the tube with some water to gravity prime the cane and start the siphon - no deal.

The silicone tube was too loose on the racking cane so I was getting air and no suction.

Anyway, after 30 mins of failed attempts, I rubber banded the tube onto the cane and resorted to the ol' mouth siphon. Others have done worse and I figured that the still very hot wort would kill most germs (I also had a mouthful of gin before that, which is another story).

I adjusted the 90 and 30 hop additions to 70 & 10 mins respectively. I had the start of fermentation 6 hours after the addition of the Wyeast Scottish yeast starter.

I usually do late extract addition with my kits but due to it being a Scottish Ale, I stuck with the full 90 min boil (still full volume boil). I hope I don't get the extract twang.

I'll report back with the final results.

 

[pnj]

I've done 6 or 7 no chill beers now. Maybe more.

I use my regular fermentation bucket with an airlock. I put a small rag (1 x 1 inch) in the top, soaked in StarSan. When it's cooled down enough, I shake the bucket for a few minutes and pitch my yeast.

This last batch I did, I didn't even shake the bucket, just poured the yeast into the airlock hole in the lid. Now I hear that this might cause some off flavors from fusils or something...


anyways, I'm loving this no chill thing. I don't mind chilling but I use two kettles on my stove top and using my chiller in my tiny kitchen is a huge pain.

 

[chucke]

Just did a NC Scottish Ale extract kit over the weekend for the first time.

Being my first NC experience, I went through a comedy of errors trying to siphon the boiling hot wort from the BK to the Winpak. I have a 32 gal aluminum pot, stainless steel racking cane and some silicone tube.

I filled the tube with some water to gravity prime the cane and start the siphon - no deal.

The silicone tube was too loose on the racking cane so I was getting air and no suction.

Anyway, after 30 mins of failed attempts, I rubber banded the tube onto the cane and resorted to the ol' mouth siphon. Others have done worse and I figured that the still very hot wort would kill most germs (I also had a mouthful of gin before that, which is another story).

I adjusted the 90 and 30 hop additions to 70 & 10 mins respectively. I had the start of fermentation 6 hours after the addition of the Wyeast Scottish yeast starter.

I usually do late extract addition with my kits but due to it being a Scottish Ale, I stuck with the full 90 min boil (still full volume boil). I hope I don't get the extract twang.

I'll report back with the final results.

I'm drinking a NC Scottish Ale at this writting. :fro:

As to the racking- a ball valve on your BK would make the whole NC process so easy that you would wonder why you didn't add it before.

 

[tincob]

I'm drinking a NC Scottish Ale at this writting. :fro:

As to the racking- a ball valve on your BK would make the whole NC process so easy that you would wonder why you didn't add it before.

I'm a stove top brewer and my BK is one of those paper thin turkey fryer aluminum pot. The price was right though - free!

Otherwise, I would have found a way to add a ball valve.

How long did you primary the Scottish Ale? My kit instructions from Midwest tells me 2 weeks - which seems on the short side.

I am planning on 3 weeks + 1 week cold crashing in the chilly garage before I bottle.

 

[chucke]

I've got one of those paper thin turkey fryer pots, and I've added a ball valve to it. You just need to be careful when you drill the hole... there's not going to be a lot of resistance.
I used a dremel tool and it almost got away from me.

My SA sat in the primary for a little over 3 weeks, cold crashed and 2 weeks cold conditioning. I probably should let it sit a bit longer...

 

[ChadLeBald]

I use these. Pour is 100% and will swell when hot wort is poured in to almost 5.5 gallon if you wish.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=25633&catid=816

After read through much of this thread, I'm really curious to try no-chill.

However, I do have a concern re: placing near-boiling liquid into plastic, HDPE or otherwise. Out of curiosity, I did call US Plastic to ask them about temp threshold, and they said "180 degrees." I'd have felt more comfortable if they responded with something nearer to 200.

Any of you using this method able to allay my concern? Or, do you simply follow the "we're all gonna die from something" mantra?

 

[teach]

I just wait until the wort just cools down to near 180. Just getting it out of the hot kettle and pouring it through the air brings it down enough, IMO.

 

[ChadLeBald]

I just wait until the wort just cools down to near 180. Just getting it out of the hot kettle and pouring it through the air brings it down enough, IMO.

Good point. And I guess a 20-minute whirlpool at knockout will also bring the temp down a bit...

 

[bakins]

I just wait until the wort just cools down to near 180. Just getting it out of the hot kettle and pouring it through the air brings it down enough, IMO.

Yeah, but you want the wort to be near boiling as it goes into the cube -- this kills any nasties in the cube.

 

[pnj]

why not sanitize the cube first?

 

[wyzazz]

You sanitize the cube and then sterilize it with the boiling wort as well. There is a greater risk of infection with the no chill method so you need to be as clean/sanitary as possible.

 

[The Pol]

FWIW, the hot wort doesnt sterilize anything.

At best you sanitizing or pasteurizing, but it does help to a degree I am sure.

 

[wyzazz]

You are correct I should have put "sterilize" in quotes, or maybe used different terminology. It would have to be much hotter to sterilize, and it would also need more contact time. Let me recant my previous statement and just say "it helps to kill bad stuff".

 

[Synovia]

FWIW, the hot wort doesnt sterilize anything.

Neither does Starsan or Iodophore. They're all just sanitizers. Hot wort probably has a better chance of actually sterilizing things.

 

[wyzazz]

Wet sterilization requires ~20mins of contact with 250F water/steam.

 

[matthendry]

You are correct I should have put "sterilize" in quotes, or maybe used different terminology. It would have to be much hotter to sterilize, and it would also need more contact time. Let me recant my previous statement and just say "it helps to kill bad stuff".

Sterilization is the elimination of bacteria ,spores and anything else that can cause sickness and illness.Heat Sterilization is holding at 250F for a given time usually 10 minutes minimum .

The correct terminology when filling wort kits or doing No-Chill is Sanitize and Pasteurize otherwise known as "help reduce the bacteria to low levels" and in food applications sterilization is not practical or nessarcary .

Remember wort is a liquid that has been boiled for 60-90 minutes that has a typical PH of 5.5 so any pathogenic spores are deactivated ,couple that with the fact that hop acids disrupt the nutrition pathway of gram positive pathogens at levels as low as 1ppm (1 IBU) .

You want the wort at about 180F when you transfer to help stop any hot side aeration and DMS precursors from forming .Minimum Pasteurization temperature is 140F .At 180 degrees F the pasteurization factor increases by about 30x .

 

[ChadLeBald]

You are correct I should have put "sterilize" in quotes, or maybe used different terminology. It would have to be much hotter to sterilize, and it would also need more contact time. Let me recant my previous statement and just say "it helps to kill bad stuff".

So then does the trade-off of getting a bit of extra sanitization from the hot wort outweigh the potential risk (carcinogen or otherwise) from putting near-boiling liquid into plastic? I think for me, I'll try a higher concentration of iodophor that will get it close to sterile, and let the wort cool to 180 (the temp threshold the distributor said those containers are made to withstand) before transferring. Any reason I should NOT do that? E.g., increased risk of contaminating the wort itself?

 

[bakins]

S
You want the wort at about 180F when you transfer to help stop any hot side aeration and DMS precursors from forming .

Most people's experience contradict that. I whirlpool and transfer after 5 minutes. Wort is generally still 200 or so. HSA is a non issue and it's not like I drop the wort 50 feet, my tube reaches the bottom of my cube. I always do 90 minute boils and never had any DMS in anything, even almost 100% pils beers. Lots of folks here and on the Aussie boards have had the same experience.

 

[bakins]

let the wort cool to 180 (the temp threshold the distributor said those containers are made to withstand) before transferring.

<sarcasm>
You could use an immersion chiller to get it down to 180 quickly.
</sarcasm>

 

[matthendry]

So then does the trade-off of getting a bit of extra sanitization from the hot wort outweigh the potential risk (carcinogen or otherwise) from putting near-boiling liquid into plastic? I think for me, I'll try a higher concentration of iodophor that will get it close to sterile, and let the wort cool to 180 (the temp threshold the distributor said those containers are made to withstand) before transferring. Any reason I should NOT do that? E.g., increased risk of contaminating the wort itself?

Chad your fine I used to work for ESB homebrew supplies the company that inspired the no chill trend and helped develop the kits and packaging and we routinely put the wort into the 'cubes' at 180F .I explained why in the post above but you do bring up a good point about the upper temp limit of soft HDPE .

 

[matthendry]

Most people's experience contradict that. I whirlpool and transfer after 5 minutes. Wort is generally still 200 or so. HSA is a non issue and it's not like I drop the wort 50 feet, my tube reaches the bottom of my cube. I always do 90 minute boils and never had any DMS in anything, even almost 100% pils beers. Lots of folks here and on the Aussie boards have had the same experience.

I used make/package wort kits for a home brew company in Australia and it makes a difference when your packaging 400 liters of wort for sale as wort kits that might sit on a retailers shelf slowly oxidizing at room temperature for a few months compared to 20 liters of homebrewed wort your going to brew in a few weeks that you store at cellar temps , we also whirlpooled the wort for 20 mins to minimize trub so it would cool down anyway .Another consideration was safety because it takes more time for 180 degree wort than 200 degree wort to burn your skin .

 

[ChadLeBald]

<sarcasm>
You could use an immersion chiller to get it down to 180 quickly.
</sarcasm>

LOL. Invent the no-chill-but-chill-slightly-before-no-chilling method!

 

[ChadLeBald]

Chad your fine I used to work for ESB homebrew supplies the company that inspired the no chill trend and helped develop the kits and packaging and we routinely put the wort into the 'cubes' at 180F .I explained why in the post above but you do bring up a good point about the upper temp limit of soft HDPE .

Sorry, missed that post as I was posting before seeing that in the thread! Good to know and makes me much more tranquil in giving this a whirl!