Experimental IPA - Beer Very Bitter and Sour. Normal?

[bluefelix]

Hello All,

I have a question about a beer we recently brewed. We were going for an "ultra hoppy" IPA based on a Sculpin clione recipe, but added A BUNCH of homegrown hops to the batch. Here is the recipe -

2 Row Malt 11lbs
Caramel Malt 20L 1.25lbs
Carapils Malt 1.0lbs
CaraVienne 0.5lbs

60 min boil

Hops:
Amarillo 2.0 oz @60
Magnum .25 oz @60
Homegrown Hops (~50% Pacific Gem, ~25% Zeus Pacific. 25% Columbus) 2.75 oz @60
Hallertauer Aroma .25 oz @60
Centennial .25 oz @30
Mt. Hood .25 oz @30
Simcoe 1.0 oz @30
Amarillo 2.0 oz @1

The hops were not bagged in the boil.

Dry Hopping:
Amarillo 2.0 oz @7 days
Simcoe 1.0 oz @7 days

Dry hops were bagged.

Yeast:
White labs WLP001 California Ale

Fermented vigorously for the first couple of days, then settled down. Transferred into secondary and dry hopped after 7 days. After dry hopping for 7 days in the secondary, it was bottled.

Results:

The beer smells fine. Great hoppy aroma. The beer is cloudy. The taste however, can be described as very bitter, and my brewing buddy feels that there is also a sourness there. I do also get some "sourness", but I am not sure if this this a problem, or just the byproduct of an extremely hoppy beer.

We are afraid that the beer could have gotten contaminated and there is bacteria giving it this sour flavor. I was pretty careful with my sanitation as I usually am. When transferring into the secondary, I did have to pour it through a colander to get it into the other bucket due to the valve getting clogged with hop leaves during the transfer. The colander was clean, but was not sanitized.

I guess what I hoping you all can help with is telling whether this bitter, sourish taste is likely "by design" due to the recipe, or if it actually got contaminated.

 

[jfk69]

Well, I don't know what you had in your "mix" of hops, other than the "Pacific Gem", and since I doubt you had an AA test done on them, you can only guess, BUT, 5.25 ounces of hops at a sixty minute addition, along with another 1.5 ounces at the 30 minute mark, WOULD lend itself to a fairly bitter beer on the backside. Just sayin'.....

If you're trying for ultra hoppy without so much bitterness, try to get 50-60% of your IBU's in the last 20 or so minutes of the boil. This has been working very well for me.

 

[microbusbrewery]

Bitter is different than sour. Are you saying you're picking up both bitterness and sourness...or are you maybe confusing the two? Based on the recipe and the large amount of bittering hops, bitterness should be a given. You've also got a bunch of citrus hops in there so maybe that's coming across as tart. I can tell you the chance of getting accidental souring with that many hop additions is pretty slim. Most lactic acid producing bacteria aren't very tolerant of hops.

Case in point, I tried to make an experimental sour IPA with all late addition hops (to keep the IBUs down), then I pitched a pure lactobacillus culture and gave it a 1 week head start on the yeast. Even under those conditions where the IBUs were low (<6) it barely had any noticeable tartness.

 

[bluefelix]

Well, I don't know what you had in your "mix" of hops, other than the "Pacific Gem", and since I doubt you had an AA test done on them, you can only guess, BUT, 5.25 ounces of hops at a sixty minute addition, along with another 1.5 ounces at the 30 minute mark, WOULD lend itself to a fairly bitter beer on the backside. Just sayin'.....

If you're trying for ultra hoppy without so much bitterness, try to get 50-60% of your IBU's in the last 20 or so minutes of the boil. This has been working very well for me.

Thanks. Are you saying that adding that much hops at 60 mins would produce a highly bitter beer, so much so that it could be undesirable to an avid IPA drinker (my friend, not me)? Because the beer it so bitter, we are exploring the idea that it may have been contaminated in some way, giving it a sourness. For us to pursue this as a possibility, we have to assume that the beer should be great, and any issues with taste had to be from contamination because this beer should be awesome. Should we not be making this assumption?

 

[bluefelix]

Bitter is different than sour. Are you saying you're picking up both bitterness and sourness...or are you maybe confusing the two? Based on the recipe and the large amount of bittering hops, bitterness should be a given. You've also got a bunch of citrus hops in there so maybe that's coming across as tart. I can tell you the chance of getting accidental souring with that many hop additions is pretty slim. Most lactic acid producing bacteria aren't very tolerant of hops.

Case in point, I tried to make an experimental sour IPA with all late addition hops (to keep the IBUs down), then I pitched a pure lactobacillus culture and gave it a 1 week head start on the yeast. Even under those conditions where the IBUs were low (<6) it barely had any noticeable tartness.

The beer is so hoppy and bitter, it is hard for me to differentiate a true "sour" in this case. You do get a sourness in the back of the tongue on the aftertaste that is't too pleasant.
You make a good point on the citrus hops. What we are experiencing could be described as a tart. We right now are exploring the possibility of contamination because it has this flavor. What I am trying to figure out is if this is just normal for what we did. We dont want to dump it if we dont have to.

 

[bluefelix]

Well, I don't know what you had in your "mix" of hops, other than the "Pacific Gem", and since I doubt you had an AA test done on them, you can only guess, BUT, 5.25 ounces of hops at a sixty minute addition, along with another 1.5 ounces at the 30 minute mark, WOULD lend itself to a fairly bitter beer on the backside. Just sayin'.....

If you're trying for ultra hoppy without so much bitterness, try to get 50-60% of your IBU's in the last 20 or so minutes of the boil. This has been working very well for me.

I just updated the recipe to show the other types of homegrown hops used:

Homegrown Hops (~50% Pacific Gem, ~25% Zeus Pacific. 25% Columbus) 2.75 oz @60

 

[chickypad]

Well, I don't know what you had in your "mix" of hops, other than the "Pacific Gem", and since I doubt you had an AA test done on them, you can only guess, BUT, 5.25 ounces of hops at a sixty minute addition, along with another 1.5 ounces at the 30 minute mark, WOULD lend itself to a fairly bitter beer on the backside. Just sayin'.....

If you're trying for ultra hoppy without so much bitterness, try to get 50-60% of your IBU's in the last 20 or so minutes of the boil. This has been working very well for me.

Agreed. That is a crap ton of high alpha bittering hops, even from someone who enjoys bitter beers it sounds like way too much to me. The Sculpin clone I have has like 1 oz mash hops (so minimal bittering), 1.25 oz at 60, and .75 oz at 30.

 

[Callacave]

You need to do some more reading on ipa recipes before jumping in and dumping a bunch of hops in at 60 min.

Are you using a program to help calculate ibu?

Those homegrown hops should've been thrown into the boil at flame out.

I think the sourness you're describing is just the lingering bitterness you're getting, or it could be more of a tartness which could typically be yeast or mash ph dependent

 

[bluefelix]

Agreed. It was an experiment by unexperienced IPA brewers. Now I am just hoping that it will be tolerable after it conditions in bottles for a couple weeks.

 

[Callacave]

Best thing to do is age it if you want the bitterness to fade.

 

[bluefelix]

Ok that is a good tip. Thanks!

 

[Callacave]

You could also brew up an identical batch minus hops and blend it to reduce the bitterness.

 

[bluefelix]

I opened one up to smell and taste again. Smells fine and although it is really bitter, it's not THAT bad. Might be kind of good when cold...

 

[RussPDX]

I agree with the pack. To heavy on the front side with the hops. Shift your additions later and pay attention to your BU:GU ratios. I am not a real hop head, so I will refrain from specific recommendations but even if you like hoppy you still want a balanced beer.

A really nice experiment would be to brew a smaller batch of the same base malt bill with very little hops and then b
Do some different blending regiments to understand just how far you went.




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[bluefelix]

You need to do some more reading on ipa recipes before jumping in and dumping a bunch of hops in at 60 min.

Are you using a program to help calculate ibu?

Those homegrown hops should've been thrown into the boil at flame out.

I think the sourness you're describing is just the lingering bitterness you're getting, or it could be more of a tartness which could typically be yeast or mash ph dependent

No, Im not using a program. Which do you recommend?

 

[bluefelix]

In terms of aging to let the bitterness mellow out, what we be a recommended range to let it age? Like what would be the max time?

 

[Callacave]

I use beersmith

 

[RussPDX]

I use beersmith as well. It will help give you some numbers to get a sense, but don't think that if it said 72 ibu and you sent it to a lab that you would get that result. It is more to give you comparables and consistency. As for aging, that is the beautiful thing (and one of the only) about bottling. It gives you a chance to taste slowly and not tie up a keg. Try one every few weeks, take good notes and learn how the flavor is changing. This is a great opportunity for you to get some great experience first hand. If I had to take a guess I would think that. 3-5 months will be where you either drink it all cause it is good or lose patience.




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[kh54s10]

I also agree that too much went into the 60 minute additions. This will add mostly bitterness. An IPA will have bitterness but also late additions for flavor and aroma.

When I do an IPA there is are some hops at the 60 minutes for bitterness. The rest of the hops are at 15 minutes to flameout and dry hopping. In an IPA you want some bittering, but also a lot of flavor and aroma.

I too use Beersmith. There are also online recipe programs that are free to use. I used one that I liked. It is now BrewToad. I liked it better before Brewtoad acquired it.

 

[bluefelix]

Thanks for the info guys! We did add hops at the end, and also dry hopped. We hopped the hell out of it and that is the problem. Just too much at the wrong time. Based on what I have read here I'm not considering contamination. The beer smells fine.

Do you all use beersmith on the pc/mac or mobile app?

 

[RussPDX]

I have Beersmith on my PC, phone and IPad. There is more functionality on the PC for calculating efficiencies and such, but I like to have access to all my recipes wherever I am. You never know when you will get into a conversation about brewing or want to pick up ingredients for a batch. The cost for the mobile versions was so cheap I couldn't resist. I usually log brew day on the iPad.


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[jfk69]

I use Beersmith on my PC. Best ~$30 I have spent in the hobby.