Experiment: Saison, Morello, and Oak

[Bent-Brewer]

I got to thinking, which is never a good thing... But I'm tempted to do an experimental batch of cider. Haven't quite gotten to specifics quantities yet, but so far:

Apple juice
Saison yeast
Oak shavings/dust
Frozen/organic morello cherries
Honey (backsweeten to taste)

I figure 2 weeks in primary at 75F with oak shavings, then rack into secondary onto the cherries for 2(?) weeks. Transfer it off, stabilize, and backsweeten to taste.

My attempt at logic behind this is that a saison yeast could add some interesting tastes to a cider, especially paired with sour cherries. I'm not quite going for a full-on brett/farmhouse cider (yet). Oak would help provide some tannins, and supposedly oaking during fermentation vs after will give different characteristics due to the yeast. At least, it does for wine. The cherries just sound good to me and I feel like it could pair well with the yeast- I could be way off base on this. Finally, the honey would help balance with the tart/dry taste I'm expecting. Sort of a funky twist on a Zombie Killer.

Thoughts/suggestions would be much appreciated. Anything from tweaks to the ingredients, words of encouragement (or warning), etc. I have no idea how much oak or cherry to add, so I've got some work cut out for me. I probably won't be able to start this all too quickly- I need to refill my kegs with the standard stuff before starting any experiments in my pipeline.

 

[Dhelderman]

I got to thinking, which is never a good thing... But I'm tempted to do an experimental batch of cider. Haven't quite gotten to specifics quantities yet, but so far:



Apple juice

Saison yeast

Oak shavings/dust

Frozen/organic morello cherries

Honey (backsweeten to taste)



I figure 2 weeks in primary at 75F with oak shavings, then rack into secondary onto the cherries for 2(?) weeks. Transfer it off, stabilize, and backsweeten to taste.



My attempt at logic behind this is that a saison yeast could add some interesting tastes to a cider, especially paired with sour cherries. I'm not quite going for a full-on brett/farmhouse cider (yet). Oak would help provide some tannins, and supposedly oaking during fermentation vs after will give different characteristics due to the yeast. At least, it does for wine. The cherries just sound good to me and I feel like it could pair well with the yeast- I could be way off base on this. Finally, the honey would help balance with the tart/dry taste I'm expecting. Sort of a funky twist on a Zombie Killer.



Thoughts/suggestions would be much appreciated. Anything from tweaks to the ingredients, words of encouragement (or warning), etc. I have no idea how much oak or cherry to add, so I've got some work cut out for me. I probably won't be able to start this all too quickly- I need to refill my kegs with the standard stuff before starting any experiments in my pipeline.

Sounds good. If you haven't used saison yeast with cider before, just know it is a beast. I've used Belle Saison yeast exclusively in my few ciders so far and it'll generally ferment cider in the 1.045-1.060 range totally dry within a week. I may not be a super taster, but I do not detect any of the saison "funk" by using saison yeast in cider.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you may want to consider racking onto the wood chips in secondary. Will follow this thread--interested to see your results.

 

[CMcPherson]

I've just done a good bit of research on oaking and went with medium toast French Oak cubes.
Here is a collection of links that I found helpful on the subject:
http://www.greatfermentations.com/oak-bourbon-and-homebrew-volume-i/
http://www.morebeer.com/content/using_oak_in_beer
http://morewinemaking.com/category/tannins-oak-barrel-alternatives.html
http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/oakinfopaper09.pdf
http://byo.com/malt/item/1187-oak-alternatives
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=4382358&postcount=4
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=119445

 

[madscientist451]

My first thought is that you are adding too many variables at the beginning. I think its a good concept, but I would make the base cider with the saison yeast, ferment cool to avoid a funky yeast note, then rack on to the cherries in secondary. When its done fermenting/aging in secondary, I would then add Oak cubes or piece of barrel stave and pull out the oak when the desired oak character is reached. I've never used oak shavings or dust because I didn't have any experience with it and was concerned about getting the oak dust out of the cider (or beer). Good Luck!

 

[Bent-Brewer]

Thanks for the quick replies! For the short version, just read the bold parts. The rest just contains my thoughts/comments. Or the overview at the end.

Yeast & Temperature:
This is something I keep going back and forth on... Fermenting in the mid 60s will help preserve more of the apple flavor/smell from blowing off during active fermentation. On the other hand, the yeast should throw more of the esters/peppery characteristics I think I'm looking for at higher temperatures. I think I'm going with Belle Saison yeast; searches of "saison cider" seem to turn up with most comments favoring that over other strains. I'm going to keep looking up the profiles at different temperatures, but for now, I'll target initial primary temperatures at 70, and may raise to 75 as needed.

Oak:
I know next to nothing about oaking. I've recently done 2 wine kits that had oak powder for primary and cubes for secondary. Supposedly, the yeast will metabolize small amounts of various compounds in the oak (can't recall specifics what, but this is based on what little bits of info I've found/remembered). Powder has the highest amount of surface area for the yeast, so that's why it was included for primary. In both kits, the oak dropped out pretty quickly; none of the sawdust shavings transferred over to secondary in my cab, and the powder for my port appeared to have all dropped out after degassing (2nd racking). Per your advice, I'm going to hold off on the powder and use oak cubes. It really does make more sense to use the cubes since I can easily control the amount of oak in the finished product. A stave might be a bit much. Any advice on the amount of oak to add would be greatly appreciated, and I'll dig through those links above as soon as I can.

Sour Cherries:
I have no idea how much to add per gallon of cider, or how long to leave them. I've heard of fruit spoiling, so I'd like to leave it as long as possible before this happens. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Summary:
Batch Size: 6 gallons
Yeast: Belle Saison
Primary: 2 weeks at/above 70F (pending research)
Secondary: 2(?) weeks at/above 70F (pending research), racked on to ???lbs/gallon sour morello cherries
Bulk Age: ???oz medium toast Hungarian oak cubes to taste. Rack off when necessary, and continue to age from there.
Carbonation: Probably going at 3 volumes

I'll keep researching, since it'll be at least a week or two before I can actually free up my primary.

Another update: it is REALLY hard to find morello cherries in the US, especially roughly 6 months out of season. I think I'm gonna have to hold off on this for a while. That or pay about $200.

 

[Compacto]

I just brewed something very similar, not a cider but a saison using the same ingerdients you are. Let it sit on oak for only a week. Didn't come through too much. Next time I try it I'll leave it for two weeks. The 3711 was a great choice for yeast though. Loads of lemon/pepper during active fermentation which went away by bottling time. Ended up being very clean and very very dry (1.001) which was perfect to let the cherry cut through.

Recipe: https://brewdown.wordpress.com/2015/12/09/morello-oak-saison/