Experiences with different saison yeast blends

[m00ps]

Anyone else find that they get banana esters early on, and more spice and unique esters later? I've noticed this in the last two strains I've been using lately (3726, 3724).

I get this with a number of mine. They can be kinda hefe-like when they are young then get fruitier/spicier.

 

[tgmartin000]

Anyone else find that they get banana esters early on, and more spice and unique esters later? I've noticed this in the last two strains I've been using lately (3726, 3724).

I just fermented a beer with 3726, pitched and held at 75 for about a day, then started increasing the temp 1 degree F/12 hours, up to about 83. Tons of banana on that one for days, but I get no banana in the flavor at all.

 

[bolus14]

I'll jump in here. I've been keeping up with this thread for a while, and really appreciate the work you've done. A while back, I did an amber saison for fall, with a 3711/566 blend. I fermented it at a fairly cool ambient temp (mid to high 60s), and it turned out incredible. It got the attenuation and slight tartness from the 3711, and the 566 at that temp created a huge clove/cinnamon/allspice profile. No one who tasted it could believe I didn't use any spices in it.

Over a few generations, I think the 3711 out-grew the 566 and tended to dominate, so that's definitely a blend I've decided needs to be mantained separately.

I'll probably start playing with some Yeast Bay stuff and making blends out of that this summer.

Do you have the recipe for the amber. I've tried a few in 1 gal batches that I didn't care for. Seems like the Saison yeast needs to mingle with roasted/kilned malts in the right manner.

 

[Jonkl]

Do you have the recipe for the amber. I've tried a few in 1 gal batches that I didn't care for. Seems like the Saison yeast needs to mingle with roasted/kilned malts in the right manner.

No problem. For a 1 gallon batch (Which is what I did on this one, too), here's what I had:

Efficiency: 62.00 %
Est Original Gravity: 1.073 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.009 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 8.6 %
Bitterness: 34.3 IBUs
Est Color: 14.3 SRM

1 lbs 8.0 oz Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) 46.2 %
1 lbs Munich II (Weyermann) (8.5 SRM) 30.8 %
4.0 oz Caraaroma (130.0 SRM) 7.7 %
4.0 oz Rye, Flaked (2.0 SRM) 7.7 %
4.0 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) 7.7 %
0.20 oz Sorachi Ace [12.60 %] - Boil 60.0 min 26.2 IBUs
0.20 oz ADHA-527 [15.60 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min 8.1 IBUs
1.0 pkg Belgian Saison II Yeast (White Labs #WLP566) [50.28 ml]
1.0 pkg French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [50.28 ml]

 

[m00ps]

Omega Yeast Hothead & INISBC-291
I made this one back in Janurary and the fruit flavor is great. Made me realize I need to explore Hothead some more and possibly those other Norwegian strains from Yeast Bay. I think im gonna change plans and try Hothead & WLP585 in a week or two

WLP565 & YB Wallonian Farmhouse
After trying Schlafly's Farmhouse IPA (usually their stuff is pretty meh to me), I decided I needed to give one a shot. I picked two strains that I think will give me a nice peppery/earthy, character and I want to use similar hops that have that earthy kind of edge. Im thinking lots of late additions of Apollo, cant decide on what else maybe with Mosaic, EXP7270, or El Dorado. I get some degree of that from the harvests I have on hand of those

 

[TastyAdventure]

Another blend I've tried, but not in a saison:
WY3864 (Unibroue) & WLP566:
I used this in my most recent Belgian dubbel and it blew me away. I wanted to cut down on the sticky sweetness dubbels can have but still keep that heavy plum/raisin character. So I decided to use a saison yeast with my favorite trappist-style yeast. I picked 566 because it doesnt have a very aggressive bite to it like some of the other saison yeasts. The bit of clove also worked well in the finished beer. This one I did like 2:1 ratio with the saison being the lesser. I really liked this combo, its my go-to beer for when I have a beer sampling and someone brings along their significant other who mostly enjoys wine.

Awhile back I used some 3rd runnings from a Hefeweizen for a starter of WLP500, and when I tasted the starter it was very tart. I know it was not infected though bc the beer I pitched it into (with no wheat) was normal WLP500 taste. So this summer I'm going to do the 500 with 50% wheat and also add 3711 after 2 days so it will get nice and dry, to go with the tartness

 

[m00ps]

Awhile back I used some 3rd runnings from a Hefeweizen for a starter of WLP500, and when I tasted the starter it was very tart. I know it was not infected though bc the beer I pitched it into (with no wheat) was normal WLP500 taste. So this summer I'm going to do the 500 with 50% wheat and also add 3711 after 2 days so it will get nice and dry, to go with the tartness

Sounds good. WLP500 by itself was always a bit too sweet at the end for me. I bet that will work pretty well for you

 

[tagz]

Awhile back I used some 3rd runnings from a Hefeweizen for a starter of WLP500, and when I tasted the starter it was very tart. I know it was not infected though bc the beer I pitched it into (with no wheat) was normal WLP500 taste. So this summer I'm going to do the 500 with 50% wheat and also add 3711 after 2 days so it will get nice and dry, to go with the tartness

Starters are usually tart due to the high attenuation and lack of hops. Wheat doesn't produce tartness.

 

[m00ps]

Starters are usually tart due to the high attenuation and lack of hops. Wheat doesn't produce tartness.

Yeah I was kinda thinking the same thing. Even when I use something like Conan, the starter is almost wit-like in tartness. Some saisons taste like a mild sour in the starter. 3711 = lemonade

 

[m00ps]

black WY3711 & WLP585
Much better than I hoped for. Used a full lb of midnight wheat, along with some cane sugar to make sure it got dry enough to feel like a saison. Gravity got to 1.002, which Im happy with for something like this. Sorachi Ace with a bit of cascade went great with the citrus from 3711 and WLP585 helped round out the finish with mroe tart fruit stuff

WLP585 & Lactic Acid
So this was an experiment that exceeded what I though the results were going to be. I wanted to make a gose with a quick turnaround, without kettle/mash souring. Wouldnt work too well with my setup and im just lazy. So I decided on using 88% lactic acid (ended up using 3oz), acid malt (25% of grain bill), salt (.75 oz), orange peel and coriander. I figured WLP585, being the most tart thing I had on hand, could be up to the task. Its still a bit young, but unless something goes terribly wrong during bottle conditioning, id say itll be a really nice refreshing change of pace

next next up: YB Belgian Dry & YB Wallonian Farmhouse
this should be a monster attenuator given my experience with both of these yeasts. well see how the yeast profile plays out. Im thinking about turning this into my second cucumber mint saison. That or hop it out the ass and call it a farmhouse ipa

Black WY3711 & WLP585
I've done 4 black saisons before, but this is easily the best one by far. It tastes completely different and mouthfeel is completely different than even other dry black IPAs I've done. Id definitely recommend this combo for a black saison. If you dont have access to WLP585. I'd say any other saison yeast that doesnt give very much spicy esters would do well.

WLP585 and Lactic Acid
This experiment turned out great. Definitely at least as sour as other commercial Gose style beers Ive had and I managed to keep the salt level palatable while still being slightly detectable. Coriander also comes through nicely while the orange is too hard to distinguish from the yeast flavors

YB Wallonian Farmhouse & YB Belgian Dry
This thing got down to 1.001 so far from 1.057. It still may have a tiny bit more to go, but I racked it to a secondary on top of 4 large cucumbers and 2 big sprigs of mint. I definitely did a better job of sanitization this time around so hopefully it shouldnt get infected. Looking back, im surprised the first one I did stayed clean given my inexperience at the time. SWMBO took a picture of racking on top of the cucumbers for some instagram (or pinterest?) thing shes been doing for me. Ill try to remember to get from her.

 

[tgmartin000]

Hey Moops, how is the cucumber mint saison? I've been thinking of making something similar.

 

[m00ps]

Hey Moops, how is the cucumber mint saison? I've been thinking of making something similar.

Well I'll have to update you in a few weeks. I just racked it onto the chopped cucumbers and 2 big whole sprigs of mint on Sunday. This is the second time Ive done this though. But the first time was pretty early on in my brewing experience so im guessing this will turn out better

That being said, the first one turned out really well considering it was a shot in the dark at the amounts of cucumber and mint. I left it on them for a week before bottling. I'd read up on mint and decided whole leaves (as opposed to chopped or extract) was the way to go to not get off flavors. I was gonna skin the cucumbers, fearing that any bacteria would probably be on the skin, but decided a lot of the cucumber flavor is in the skins so I just scrubbed and sanitized. It turned out a really refreshing great summer beer. I actually made it for my Mom and sister for an annual trip to the shore we would do

 

[GQT]

@m00ps:
Man how come you didn't mention this thread to me before?! Such a wealth of knowledge!
(and I will surely try your cucumber saison soon).

 

[m00ps]

i dunno if I'd use the word "wealth", maybe more of a cacaphony, but youre welcome

 

[brewski09]

Well I'll have to update you in a few weeks. I just racked it onto the chopped cucumbers and 2 big whole sprigs of mint on Sunday. This is the second time Ive done this though. But the first time was pretty early on in my brewing experience so im guessing this will turn out better

That being said, the first one turned out really well considering it was a shot in the dark at the amounts of cucumber and mint. I left it on them for a week before bottling. I'd read up on mint and decided whole leaves (as opposed to chopped or extract) was the way to go to not get off flavors. I was gonna skin the cucumbers, fearing that any bacteria would probably be on the skin, but decided a lot of the cucumber flavor is in the skins so I just scrubbed and sanitized. It turned out a really refreshing great summer beer. I actually made it for my Mom and sister for an annual trip to the shore we would do

Any chance I can get the amount of cucumber and mint per gallon or per 5 gallon for this? I'd love to do something with cucumber this summer because it's so refreshing. That and I have some lemon mint that smells amazing and is borderline feral at this point (also some chocolate mint I'm dying to try in a porter or stout). These mints are excellent in mixed drinks but I've yet to pull the trigger on a plastic fermenter dedicated to mint and cucumber...

 

[m00ps]

Any chance I can get the amount of cucumber and mint per gallon or per 5 gallon for this? I'd love to do something with cucumber this summer because it's so refreshing. That and I have some lemon mint that smells amazing and is borderline feral at this point (also some chocolate mint I'm dying to try in a porter or stout). These mints are excellent in mixed drinks but I've yet to pull the trigger on a plastic fermenter dedicated to mint and cucumber...

Sure, this is the second time I've done it and got very lucky with the amounts the first time around. Did the same this time and it was spot on where I wanted it. Bottled it on Sunday

For 5 gallons, I did 3 large (4 medium sized this time around) cucumbers and 2 fresh sprigs of whole mint. I carefulyl washed the cucumbers, sanitized a mat and knife, chopped them up, then quickly dipped them in starsan before adding. I kept the skins on because I believe thats where a good deal of the flavor comes from. The mint I also sanitized and just cut the larger part of the main stems off. I secondaried it due to the large amount of cucumber matter and let it sit for a week before bottling. The bucket didnt really smell any different after rinsing compared to any other batch so I dont think youd necessarily need a dedicated fermentor

And by sprig, I mean like this size. 2 of them. It was just the whole package of the fresh mint at my grocery store that comes in that rectangular plastic container along with other herbs:

 

[TastyAdventure]

Anybody know what the WLP equivalents are for 3724 and 3726?

 

[m00ps]

Anybody know what the WLP equivalents are for 3724 and 3726?

WY3724 = WLP565
There isn't really a equivalent strain for WY3726. Some people think its the same as WLP566, but I dont think so. I get a lot more peppery spice from 3726

I think a few other smaller yeast companies have one that sounds similar, but I've never actually read anything to confirm it.

 

[Gus_13]

WLP565 and WY3724 are both DuPont strains but I've used both and gotten different beers and I think others have similar experience that they are different. But, both from DuPont.

565 us drier and has more pepper and light tartness. 3724 usually gets some bubblegum and more fruit flavors for me. I like 565 but use 3724 in some blends.

3726 is the same as the Imperial Rustic Saison.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/imperial-organic-yeast-rustic.html

 

[m00ps]

WLP566 is supposedly from Dupont too. It seems they definitely have more than a single strain in their beer.

"White Labs produces another strain, Belgian Saison II (WLP566) that is rumored to be a different isolate from Brasserie Dupont. WLP566 has a similar character to WLP565 (although it tends to be slightly fruitier), but is less finicky to work with.
This other seasonal release (WY3726) is a close cousin to the Dupont strain, with a supposed origin at Brasserie de Blaugies. Swapping the tropical fruity notes of French Saison or Saison II for heavier banana, it provides a classic dry peppery saison character, and is again easier to work with than Dupont. "
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2014/06/american-saison-reimagining-farmhouse.html

 

[Gus_13]

WLP566 is supposedly from Dupont too. It seems they definitely have more than a single strain in their beer.

"White Labs produces another strain, Belgian Saison II (WLP566) that is rumored to be a different isolate from Brasserie Dupont. WLP566 has a similar character to WLP565 (although it tends to be slightly fruitier), but is less finicky to work with. "
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2014/06/american-saison-reimagining-farmhouse.html

Yeah that's right. I remember reading about that. I've only used 566 once but it went with brettanomyces. I may need to revisit it. Right now I'm just flooded with yeasts to use.

 

[m00ps]

moar updates:
WLP585 / INISBC 291
This one still has a tiny bit of the hefe-like esters I seem to get when they are young, but is really tasty. I get some sweet berry flavors from it and its more drinkable than Id expect for being this young

WLP565 & Wallonian Farmhouse:
This ended up as my attempt at a farmhouse IPA, so it may not be as revealing in regards to the yeast combo. Im bottling it tonight and took a sample yesterday. Got super dry, nice earthyness which I was going for from the hops (apollo columbus & exp7270) and yeast. The finish is nice and peppery with a tiny bit of lemon, which I would expect from the yeasts

cucumber mint one with YB Belgian Dry & Wallonian Farmhouse should be ready to try within the next week

 

[m00ps]

@brewski09
I tried the first cucumber mint one last night (well SWMBO did and I had a bit) and the amounts are definitely suitable for~5-6 gallons. It was more cucumber than mint, which I would prefer, comes off more refreshing that way. The nose is huge cucumber with some aromatic hints of mint. The finish is where I can actually taste the saison yeast itself. Overall, it turned out better than I hoped from going off my crinkled beer stained notes from 18 months ago. It will reel itself in after a few weeks im sure and become more balanced, but plenty good now if you love cucumber

 

[Jonkl]

@m00ps Have you done much with the Saisonstein's Monster from OYL? I've been wondering if that would make a decent quasi-blend.

 

[m00ps]

@m00ps Have you done much with the Saisonstein's Monster from OYL? I've been wondering if that would make a decent quasi-blend.

Admittedly, I've only used it once in its pure form. This was in a regular saison which I made a while ago before I took a forced break from brewing. It was in a simple pale saison with some rye. From my memory, It came out good. Super super dry with a lasting finish as I'd expect from the French saison side. It also had some spicy character and some rustic hay which I'd attribute to DuPont. Lemon was definitely there which I think comes from both.

Like an idiot, after my break i tossed my culture in a starter with wy3726 and the result is now just my "saison blend"

 

[GQT]

Hey @m00ps, have you ever tried mixing WY1214 Belgian Abbey and OYL-057 Hothead Ale?
I had a nearly expired smackpack of the former, smacked it - no puffing at all; made a starter - no activity at all after 12 hrs on a stirplate... So I poured a pack of latter into the same starter, and it happily went off bubbling in a few hours.
Last night I used this starter in my beer. Today I checked the slants I made with that expired 1214 2 days ago - all slants got normal healthy growth.
So the 1214 were in fact alive, just very weak and fast asleep.
Now the beer is hyperactive, shooting like AK47. I believe both yeasts are feasting on it.
What shall I expect from it?
Any ideas?

 

[m00ps]

Hey @m00ps, have you ever tried mixing WY1214 Belgian Abbey and OYL-057 Hothead Ale?
I had a nearly expired smackpack of the former, smacked it - no puffing at all; made a starter - no activity at all after 12 hrs on a stirplate... So I poured a pack of latter into the same starter, and it happily went off bubbling in a few hours.
Last night I used this starter in my beer. Today I checked the slants I made with that expired 1214 2 days ago - all slants got normal healthy growth.
So the 1214 were in fact alive, just very weak and fast asleep.
Now the beer is hyperactive, shooting like AK47. I believe both yeasts are feasting on it.
What shall I expect from it?
Any ideas?

I havent tried to combo, but I think it would be a good one. WY1214/WLP500 has always been too much for me on its own. I love the dark fruit flavors, but the finish was always too sweet for me. Then again, I only used it in high OG beers so that may be the issue. Anyway, hothead is super super fruity, though less "dark" fruits and more like peaches, berries, etc. I think it would really make a nice fruit salad character. But mostly, I like how it should contribute greatly to the attenuation so you dont end up with a sweet mess

 

[m00ps]

updates:

INISBC-291 & WLP585
This was the first time I used spelt (33%) in a saison. I just used a bit of Aramis hops to go a more classic route in order to taste the spelt. I really like it. It has more flavor than wheat to me, but it could just be since its unfamiliar to me. Id describe the flavor as nutty and sweet upfront, but none of the sweetness carries to the finish. The yeast blend worked for my tastes too. The bit of tart that WLP585 has always had for me also rounded out any wheaty sweetness that came from the spelt. So kinda a vague berryish fruit flavor and some nuttiness, like drinking no-sugar-added granola mix I guess.

WLP565 & Wallonian Farmhouse, farmhouse IPA
I wanted my farmhouse IPA to be distinctly different from my fruity regular IPAs I do so I tried to pick yeasts that are more earthy, peppery, and herbal. I used apollo and columbus for most of the hops to try and get an assertive earthy funky hoppy farmhouse ale. Bottled it a week ago so Ill probably try one of the last-filled bottles, which tend to have excess yeast sediment, later this week. At bottling it had a great combo of earthy/herbal flavors with some citrus

- WLP566 & beergolfs Wild Rosemary
This really wont help much with the idea of yeast blending, but I wanted to try making a spiced saison with cardamom and ginger. From what I had on hand, I found the characteristics of these 2 yeasts would meld well with it. In case anyone is wondering, 4g crushed cardamom pods & 3oz fresh sliced ginger root at flameout with a short 5min steep before chilling makes for a nice balance. From tasting at bottling, I was worried I was going to need to sit on this for at least 6 months for the cardamom to mellow out. But chilled and carbed, it is definitely less prevalent and I can taste a good amount of the yeast flavors too.

 

[brewski09]

I got another batch started today with the yeast bay Sigmund's Voss Kveik and got it hot. Holy cow, tons of peach and orange blossom blowing off the fermenter right now! Not at all what I expected

 

[m00ps]

I got another batch started today with the yeast bay Sigmund's Voss Kveik and got it hot. Holy cow, tons of peach and orange blossom blowing off the fermenter right now! Not at all what I expected

If we swap stuff later, ill trade some yeast too. That sounds pretty unique for a farmhouse style yeast

 

[brewski09]

I was surprised by the aromas blowing off of it. Excited to try the beer now.

 

[m00ps]

I know you feel bro. I'm like an 8 year old on Xmas morning every time I've waited to try a new saison that is carbed

 

[bigplunkett]

Moops witch blend would you sugest for an aporcot saison i usaul use 566 should i blend it with 3711? 6#2row 4# vienna 1# candy sugar im shooting for 25 ibus and have 4# aporcots.

 

[m00ps]

Moops witch blend would you sugest for an aporcot saison i usaul use 566 should i blend it with 3711? 6#2row 4# vienna 1# candy sugar im shooting for 25 ibus and have 4# aporcots.

Well being that its mostly going to be focused on the apricot, the yeast choice shouldnt matter as much, but 566 and 3711 was one of my early favorite combos. I would definitely use something like 3711 in the mix for a fruited saison because it will keep it very clean and dry at the finish. IMO, this is very important for fruit beers because even if the sweetness isnt there, your brain will trick you into tasting it from the familiar taste of the fruit. 566 has always had a bit of clove spice and apple going on for me. I think this would work well with apricots too.

Out of the widely available saison yeasts, I think it would be a great combo

Sounds tasty. How are you adding the apricots? Be careful with sanitation, but it depends whether its whole fruits or a packaged puree

 

[GQT]

even if the sweetness isnt there, your brain will trick you into tasting it from the familiar taste of the fruit

very true. I'm so tired of telling people the beer is actually dry as sand in the desert while they insist is is sweet. on one occasion I even had to get a hydrometer to prove my point.

 

[bigplunkett]

I got them from a friend at work who brews he cleand and sinitzed them. And had no oroblem with them in a wheat beer and a sour. I was planing on pasturizing it at 160 for 20 min in a quart or 2 of water just to be sure. It was going to be added in secondary.

 

[m00ps]

very true. I'm so tired of telling people the beer is actually dry as sand in the desert while they insist is is sweet. on one occasion I even had to get a hydrometer to prove my point.

Laughing at the thought of picturing it.

Real men settle arguments with a hydrometer

 

[GQT]

Real men settle arguments with a hydrometer

Yeah. "And then I pulled out my hydrometer"...

 

[GQT]

By the way @m00ps what is the highest safe temperature for 3711?
I brewed what was supposed to be a strong a saison (about 1082) and pitched with a 3711 starter last night at 20C but somehow forgot to turn on the chiller.
It is shooting co2 alright this morning but the temp is 25-26C too late to lower the temp.
Am I having a batch of wasted time and grain?..

 

[brewski09]

By the way @m00ps what is the highest safe temperature for 3711?
I brewed what was supposed to be a strong a saison (about 1082) and pitched with a 3711 starter last night at 20C but somehow forgot to turn on the chiller.
It is shooting co2 alright this morning but the temp is 25-26C too late to lower the temp.
Am I having a batch of wasted time and grain?..

I haven't taken 3711 here personally (yet, just wait for this summer and I'll be able to tell you the upper limit) but you should easily be fine up to 29-30c. I'll let you know how it performs in the 32-35c range later.