Experiences with different saison yeast blends

[stickyfinger]

My Saisons brewing experience is limited to 2 batches using Belle Saison, and while I enjoyed both, their taste and aroma was very similar, despite huge variants between batches.



Batch 1:

Maris Otter, Munich and White Wheat. Hops added at 60, 15, 5, and 0.)

Hallertau and Kent Goldings.

Temp Control at 65° F

FG 1.012



Batch 2:

2 Row, White Wheat and Victory.

Azacca and Jarrylo (No bittering additions. Hops split between 15, Whirlpool and Dry Hop.)

No Temp Control. Batch hit 82° F at one point.

FG 1.001



I still have 3 satchels of Belle Saison left, and really want to knock out at least 2 more Saisons before August (baby on the way). Any suggestions for a little "diversity" in the batches?



I have a Belgian Blonde batch going right now with some Abbaye yeast that I thought about blending some slurry in with my next Saison.



Another thought was to take the grain bill I have already bought for an upcoming Rye Pale ale, skip the Crystal 40, and ferment with Belle Saison.



Any/all advice is appreciated.



Thanks.

could try a black saison

 

[filthyastronaut]

Definitely blend. That'll make sure the yeast character is different. Maybe crank it hotter and see how it does.

 

[NothingRhymesWithCurtiss]

Definitely blend. That'll make sure the yeast character is different.

Abbaye and Belle? Or do you recommend a different combination?

 

[trav77]

I still have 3 satchels of Belle Saison left, and really want to knock out at least 2 more Saisons before August (baby on the way). Any suggestions for a little "diversity" in the batches?

I do a saison with 15% rye malt and a moderate dose of citra/nelson in the whirlpool + dry hop. Certainly not traditional but the hops play really well with the saison yeast flavours.

If you like funk you could also try copitching some brett. That would certainly give you some variation.

 

[filthyastronaut]

Abbaye and Belle? Or do you recommend a different combination?

You could give that one a try for a Trappist style, and then pick up another Saison strain of your choice. 3724 is known for its stuck fermentations, and Belle will make sure it finishes strong and timely.

 

[trav77]

I do a saison with 15% rye malt and a moderate dose of citra/nelson in the whirlpool + dry hop. Certainly not traditional but the hops play really well with the saison yeast flavours.

If you like funk you could also try copitching some brett. That would certainly give you some variation.

Actually I just took my own advice and brewed this exact beer last night!

CMC Pale with 16% rye malt, 6% victory, and 8% kettle sugar. 20 g each of citra/nelson for 10 mins and I'll dry hop with the same.

Pitched a blend of WYeast French Saison, Belgian Saison, and Brett C.

I've done minor variations on this beer a number of times but this is my first time with the yeast blend. Should be interesting, I'll report how it turns out!

 

[stickyfinger]

Actually I just took my own advice and brewed this exact beer last night!

CMC Pale with 16% rye malt, 6% victory, and 8% kettle sugar. 20 g each of citra/nelson for 10 mins and I'll dry hop with the same.

Pitched a blend of WYeast French Saison, Belgian Saison, and Brett C.

I've done minor variations on this beer a number of time but this is my first time with the yeast blend. Should be interesting, I'll report how it turns out!

Does the Brett ferment at the same time as the Sacc.? Do you keg or bottle? Do you have to let it sit a long time so the Brett doesn't create bottle bombs?

 

[trav77]

Does the Brett ferment at the same time as the Sacc.? Do you keg or bottle? Do you have to let it sit a long time so the Brett doesn't create bottle bombs?

Yes the Brett ferments at the same time as the Sacc but it also can metabolize a number of byproducts that the Sacc are producing during active fermentation. So theoretically a co-pitch of Brett with Sacc will produce a milder funk than one pitched in secondary... at least according to Milk the Funk: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Funky_Mixed_Fermentations

I'm going for a subtle, fruity funk so we'll see how it goes.

This will be going into a keg but if bottling then yes I would leave it quite a while to ensure it's stable (which will also produce more funk).

 

[trav77]

I should also mention that the cell count is quite low in the WL Brett C so even though Brett is capable, the vast majority of the alcoholic fermentation will be done by the Sacc since their growth rate is much faster and they were pitched at a much higher initial rate. The Brett will basically just chew on the leftovers.

 

[stickyfinger]

WLP585 seems to be available now for anyone interested in trying it. I am thinking of getting a pack, but I hate to ship yeast in this blistering weather.

 

[specharka]

Hill Farmstead Dorothy (2015)

Made a rustic rye saison with yeast harvested from Dorothy dregs and it turned out lovely. Lots of clove, spicy pepper, some lemongrass coming through on the finish. Exceptional head retention, lacing, and body for the dry finish. No perceptible funk on a young glass, and no off-flavors despite fermentation temperatures exceeding 90F. Recipe below, for those who wander:

1.056 OG
72% Pils
18% Rye
4% Flaked oats
4% Flaked wheat
2% Acid malt
20 min @ 128F, 45 min @ 154F, 10 min @ 168F
30 IBU CTZ, 4 oz HS (1.5 CTZ/1.5 Ella/1.0 Nelson Sauvin), 4 oz DH (same)
Refermented in keg with 6 oz local wildflower honey

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1497313474.930484.jpg

 

[NothingRhymesWithCurtiss]

So I can't decide between brewing a Chinook/Cascade Pale Ale with WLP644, or a Chinook/Cascade Saison with Belle Saison. So... why not brew a hybrid?

Does anyone have experience using these two yeasts together? Or at least WLP644 with Saison yeast?

Also, the WLP644 is slurry, while the Belle Saison is a fresh pack. So any advice on how/when to pitch?

 

[jordanfrenzy]

I should also mention that the cell count is quite low in the WL Brett C so even though Brett is capable, the vast majority of the alcoholic fermentation will be done by the Sacc since their growth rate is much faster and they were pitched at a much higher initial rate. The Brett will basically just chew on the leftovers.

I've been thinking about doing something similar to this. I wonder if you could get more brett influence by making a starter for the Brett C and just pitching the WLP Dupont tube.

 

[NothingRhymesWithCurtiss]

First I'm gonna make an IPA with just WLP 644, then harvest it and blend with Belle Saison.

Any luck with the 644 and Belle blend? I'm thinking of doing this for my next batch.

 

[radwizard]

I've been thinking about doing something similar to this. I wonder if you could get more brett influence by making a starter for the Brett C and just pitching the WLP Dupont tube.

I would pitch the recommended amount of the Dupont. You can promote Brett impact on your hot side (Grain selection + Mash Temp.). You can still do a starter on the Brett, but I often don't if I am co-pitching.

I get better Brett flavors in pitching smaller, and giving the fermentation more time.

 

[Jonkl]

I just did a saison that was basically a Kitchen Sink of my reserved saison yeasts: BE-134, WLP556 (Saison II), Wallonian Farmhouse from TYB, and WLP720 (Sweet Mead/Wine).

It finished pretty dry, but there's a lingering sweet character that works with light dry-hopping.

I know 720 isn't really a saison yeast, but it works. I think it's the yeast in Standard by Prairie Artisan Ales (I'd used it in a braggot, and recognized the similarities on my first sip of a Standard). It leaves behind a fruitiness that blends nicely with a spicier, earthier saison yeast. I think from now on I'll blend 720 with either 134 or another dry, 3711-ish yeast for my saisons. I'm also toying with the idea of blending it with a Kveik yeast.

 

[couchsending]

I’d be a little wary of using wlp720 with other Ale yeasts. It’s classified as “killer” so it will kill most Ale strains or strains that are classified as “susceptible”. It’s hard to find info on most of Ale strains but from everything I’ve read almost all are susceptible. Maybe one of those Ale yeasts wasn’t susceptible and survived to ferment the beer to dryness? Wlp720 won’t ferment maltotriose so you’d need something else to dry it out or use and enzyme. There are a few wine strains that are killer negative so you could use those blended with Ale yeasts.

I did a Voss/3724 blend that was pretty interesting.

 

[Jonkl]

I did not know that. After reviewing my notes, it got down to 1.011 with an 82% attenuation. So not super dry, but decent, considering the killer in the midst. I probably just got lucky or something, with the ale yeasts getting most of the job done before the older, smaller 720 culture got up to speed.

From what I can find, it sounds like Brett is killer-neutral. It might make an interesting pair. I haven't found anything on whether kveik hybrids are killer-neutral or killer-susceptible.

Thanks for the knowledge. There's always more to learn.

 

[stickyfinger]

Just tried Saisonsteiner monster or whatever from omega. Pitched at 68 and raised to 80F by 4 degrees per day after 24 hrs. So far I’d say my favorite saison strain is by far WY3711. I think I’m just a boring person. *sigh*

EDIT: OK, after a day of conditioning and proper carbonation, the Saisonstein monster is very solid. I'd recommend trying it if you haven't. It dried out very nicely - from 1.055 to 1.003 in just over 14 days (or shorter didn't check sooner) for 95% AA.

 

[theQ]

Just tried Saisonsteiner monster or whatever from omega. Pitched at 68 and raised to 80F by 4 degrees per day after 24 hrs. So far I’d say my favorite saison strain is by far WY3711. I think I’m just a boring person. *sigh*

3711 is an eager son of a yeast! Nice peppery and lemony flavor and will drive it below 1.000 but it can get boring after a while , I think would work great with other yeasts. I think I learned something new today, killer yeast!

I am interested to learn more about that, where can I find very detailed classification on that ?

 

[Stand]

I have a freezer full of frozen stocks, and I just made a starter with WY3711, WY3522, WL530. This is not the result of planning, I've just like them all and wanted to try something different with my Saison this year. What are you guys using for hops in your Saison? I just bought half a pound of Bobek super cheap, and I was thinking I might try those.

 

[stickyfinger]

i haven't liked dry hops or late kettle hops in my belgians. the yeast and hops clash to me. i haven't brewed a ton of hoppy versions though.

3711 is more of a clovey/fruity/winey character to me usually. might be how i use it.