I'm looking for any experience combining WLP565 and WLP566. I have scoured this thread and people have mentioned wanting to try it but not any specific results. Any feedback would be great but I am specifically debating on how to combine them. Co-pitch 1:1, Pitch WLP565 and pitch WLP566 when it starts to stall, or pitch a starter of WLP565 and just a package of WLP566. Ultimately what I am looking for is to add some fruitiness and dryness to the earth and spice from WLP565 but dont want 566 to totally run away with the batch.
Experiences with different saison yeast blends
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Well I'm bottling my "'tis the Saison" tonight. Ended up using WLP500 and WY3711, more of the 3711. (I used one tube WLP500 and most of a cold-crashed 400ml jelly jar of WY3711 starter) Pitched into 1.072 wort on Nov5, reached 1.008 by Nov 18th, 1.006 today. Warmed slightly after a few days to keep it around 72-74 for about a week, then returned to 66-68 ambient.
Probably should have tilted toward WLP500 more, but so far gravity sample tastes enticing - slightly to moderately fruity, slightly spicy, dry. Excited to try it in a few weeks. (planning recipe for next year already - start with CSI's Westy12 base, go fruitier on hops, hit with 3711 or Saisonstein partway through primary, and age on cherries and oak)
Also wanted to comment that I brewed a 2.5gal batch of my regular Saison Dew a couple months ago and split between three 1-gal jugs - one got the 3711, one got Saisonsteins Monster, one got Hothead, all fermented at 66F-68F ambient.
First and second comparison tastings agreed: Hothead is interesting, tangier, but beer seems a bit less complex apart from that. 3711 is tasty as always, delicately spicy and fruity, while Saisonstein adds a couple layers of complexity to it - something elusive changes in the spiciness, and there's an apple/pear character I've never encountered so strong except with WY3725 Biere de Garde. (loved that batch - at about 3 months all the bottles rapidly turned to gushers though, next time will keg instead)
Not decided yet if I like the Saisonstein or 3711 better for this brew, though leaning toward the 3711 - the fruit additions from Saisonstein kind of muddle the tropical/citrus notes of the hops, though it contributes a slightly greater perceived mouthfeel. Saisonstein took off (1/2" krausen at 4hrs) and finished quicker, was clarifying at 3 days when other two were still roiling clouds, and attenuated a little further than 3711. (1.006 vs 1.008, and 1.010 for Hothead) May end up with a seasonal variation - 3711 to drink in warmer weather, Saisonstein in colder.
As for Hothead, I will likely brew with it again, but not this recipe - probably something more robust, like a rye saison, that could better endure and benefit from its contributions. If you're in a position of fermenting a saison with ambient temps high-80s or higher then it's well worth consideration, but I don't see it easily producing something that would be described as 'delicate'.
j
Probably should have tilted toward WLP500 more, but so far gravity sample tastes enticing - slightly to moderately fruity, slightly spicy, dry. Excited to try it in a few weeks. (planning recipe for next year already - start with CSI's Westy12 base, go fruitier on hops, hit with 3711 or Saisonstein partway through primary, and age on cherries and oak)
Also wanted to comment that I brewed a 2.5gal batch of my regular Saison Dew a couple months ago and split between three 1-gal jugs - one got the 3711, one got Saisonsteins Monster, one got Hothead, all fermented at 66F-68F ambient.
First and second comparison tastings agreed: Hothead is interesting, tangier, but beer seems a bit less complex apart from that. 3711 is tasty as always, delicately spicy and fruity, while Saisonstein adds a couple layers of complexity to it - something elusive changes in the spiciness, and there's an apple/pear character I've never encountered so strong except with WY3725 Biere de Garde. (loved that batch - at about 3 months all the bottles rapidly turned to gushers though, next time will keg instead)
Not decided yet if I like the Saisonstein or 3711 better for this brew, though leaning toward the 3711 - the fruit additions from Saisonstein kind of muddle the tropical/citrus notes of the hops, though it contributes a slightly greater perceived mouthfeel. Saisonstein took off (1/2" krausen at 4hrs) and finished quicker, was clarifying at 3 days when other two were still roiling clouds, and attenuated a little further than 3711. (1.006 vs 1.008, and 1.010 for Hothead) May end up with a seasonal variation - 3711 to drink in warmer weather, Saisonstein in colder.
As for Hothead, I will likely brew with it again, but not this recipe - probably something more robust, like a rye saison, that could better endure and benefit from its contributions. If you're in a position of fermenting a saison with ambient temps high-80s or higher then it's well worth consideration, but I don't see it easily producing something that would be described as 'delicate'.
j
I have a split batch of Saison now. 12g w 565 6g w 566. I pitched at 65, moved it next to my heating vent and let it rise to 72 over 2 days. Put them on my vent and they went to 80-82 overnight. Stayed there for 7 days. The 566 is almost lagerish and is at 1.008. The 565 is much more complex and at 1.006. No stall or any issues. I would say adding at the end if there is a stall, would be OK. I've never experienced any stall with 565.
hopbrad
Well-Known Member
nice update
I've been using saisonstein for a few months now and about 5-6 generations deep on some brews. I generally ferment about 62-64 ambient and will let it finish in the mid 70s ambient after a week. I get alot of bubblegum while young and that tends to fade to apple/pear. My latest batch and generation 6 is starting to throw some apricot/peach. never experienced a lot of spice. I usually bottle condition my belgians but will keg some from time to time. really enjoying this yeast.
Jonkl
Well-Known Member
I recently brewed a Belg-toberfest, and fermented with Saisonstein. I actually timed it just right, with the first big cold spell of the year, and it ended up fermenting in the exterior mud room in the 56-58 range. I had a similar brew last year, which I fermented with a 3711/566 combo, in the 62F range. It gave *huge* clove/allspice character, to the point that no one could believe I didn't brew the beer with spices. So I wanted to try a similar technique with a similar beer, to see what Saisonstein did.
It ended up being a little more muted, but the clove/allspice character is still definitely there. It plays really well with a malty base. One thing that was different was that I also get sort of a lager-y ester character, alongside the spice. It's okay, but it does clash a little bit. Maybe I'll try more of a low-60s ferment next time, instead of high-50s and see what happens.
Next up, I've got an aquarium heater on the way from Amazon, so I'm going to do a more traditional saison base (with French hops), and ferment it crazy hot. We'll see what happens.
It ended up being a little more muted, but the clove/allspice character is still definitely there. It plays really well with a malty base. One thing that was different was that I also get sort of a lager-y ester character, alongside the spice. It's okay, but it does clash a little bit. Maybe I'll try more of a low-60s ferment next time, instead of high-50s and see what happens.
Next up, I've got an aquarium heater on the way from Amazon, so I'm going to do a more traditional saison base (with French hops), and ferment it crazy hot. We'll see what happens.
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Do you have the recipe for this?
WLP585 / INISBC-291 - table saison
Doing this a third time, but decided to try a <4% beer to see how it affected the yeast character. From what I can taste, its very similar, but a bit more spice than i'd expect. So instead of a tart fruit bomb its a bit more balanced, though definitely still on the fruity side. Used about 50% flaked adjuncts to try and keep the body from being watery. Ended up at 4.2% though, oops
WLP585 / INISBC-291 - table saison
Doing this a third time, but decided to try a <4% beer to see how it affected the yeast character. From what I can taste, its very similar, but a bit more spice than i'd expect. So instead of a tart fruit bomb its a bit more balanced, though definitely still on the fruity side. Used about 50% flaked adjuncts to try and keep the body from being watery. Ended up at 4.2% though, oops
Got a blend of WLP565 and wyeast3724 fermenting a dark saison at the moment. I pitched two 800ml starters at high krausen at 64 F then after 2 days ramped to 95F over 24 hours.
I didn't add sugar during the boil, I plan to add it this weekend on day 5 of fermentation.
I am using the foil cover on a dry airlock.
When should I be thinking about checking gravity? If it stalls I want to get on top of things sooner rather than later.
I didn't add sugar during the boil, I plan to add it this weekend on day 5 of fermentation.
I am using the foil cover on a dry airlock.
When should I be thinking about checking gravity? If it stalls I want to get on top of things sooner rather than later.
trav77
Well-Known Member
Yeah you will be fine if you keep it warm like that.
FWIW I never put much stock in the back pressure theory. The amount of pressure that the tiny bit of liquid in the airlock contributes is negligible relative to the wort itself.
FWIW I never put much stock in the back pressure theory. The amount of pressure that the tiny bit of liquid in the airlock contributes is negligible relative to the wort itself.
tgmartin000
Well-Known Member
That's less than 0.1 psi. Is that really enough to do anything?
filthyastronaut
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Planning to play around with some yeast blends in a month or so. First I'm gonna make an IPA with just WLP 644, then harvest it and blend with Belle Saison. After that, I'll harvest again and then add 3724. Both saisons will have the same grain bill and Pekko hops. I'm fully expecting the one with just 644 and Belle to be a fruit bomb, and the next to (hopefully) have a contrasting spice character. I'll report on the results.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
OK, I'm going to make a Saison in May. I haven't made one for quite a long time. I've only made on that I really loved once. Can someone please tell me how to make a really fresh, spicy, peppery version? Give me a recipe and a yeast or yeast combo to use!
Brewing Classic Styles is a good place to start
trav77
Well-Known Member
70% pils
20% wheat
10% Munich
Bitter to 30 ibu
Ounce or two of your fav noble hop late in the kettle.
Ferment warm with 3711.
Then you can play around with other strains to get added complexity but 3711 will give you a bone dry finish with no fuss. Belle saison is another easy option.
20% wheat
10% Munich
Bitter to 30 ibu
Ounce or two of your fav noble hop late in the kettle.
Ferment warm with 3711.
Then you can play around with other strains to get added complexity but 3711 will give you a bone dry finish with no fuss. Belle saison is another easy option.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
i think i'll try 3711.
I second the easiness of 3711 or Bell, but take a look at TYB Wallonian,it is bliss.
My "grain bill" for all Saisons is 35% each Weyermann Pils and Vienna,20% mix of wheat and oats, 10% cane sugar.
Pitch low and let it go!
My "grain bill" for all Saisons is 35% each Weyermann Pils and Vienna,20% mix of wheat and oats, 10% cane sugar.
Pitch low and let it go!
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
i tried starting my saison at 90f last time per some Wyeast advice for their 3724 - the one that stalls? - didn't like the finished flavor. fermented fast but tasted "old" to me
hopbrad
Well-Known Member
Omega's Saisonstein is nice. a hybrid of 3711 and 3724. I havent used 3711 yet, but have some in the fridge
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
seems like 35% vienna is a lot of darker base malt. i am intrigued though.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
what about a malt bill of like 10% rye malt, 10-20% vienna and the balance as Pils malt? I am leaning toward WY3711 to start at like 66-68F and then let it ramp up naturally to like 80-85F and hold there until fermentation is done?
trav77
Well-Known Member
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
yeah, i think it was a mistake. Wyeast advised to do it though!!!
I think I'm going to try wy3711, maybe with Brett at the pitch?, with a lot of Citra, start in the 60s and let it go up to 85-90 and hold until done fermenting. see what happens. thanks to all and Braufessor for his private messages.
trav77
Well-Known Member
Sounds good. In my experience citra and 3711 work nicely together.
@stickyfinger
Vienna is not all that dark.
Plus, my Saisons are mostly below 1.045, so the Vienna helps it with some character.
Plus, you can hop the crap out of a grain bill like that and still manage to have a nice malt support
Vienna is not all that dark.
Plus, my Saisons are mostly below 1.045, so the Vienna helps it with some character.
Plus, you can hop the crap out of a grain bill like that and still manage to have a nice malt support
Just my 2¢... My saison is about 70% pils, 12% wheat, 9% each carahell, and abbey malt. Bittered with Mosaic, finished with a mix of Mosaic, Strisselspalt, and Wai-iti hops.
I ferment (usually) with 3711, 66°-68° F ambient. No other temp control measures. I always get light pepperiness, and some fruit I attribute mostly to the Wai-iti, and a nice malty note. And incredible attenuation. (1.050 to 1.007 in about a week)
I pitched some 3711 in secondary on a cherry quad. It went from somewhere about 1.106 to about 1.028 on the WLP530, then the 3711 amazingly took it down to around 1.006! (currently aging, on rebrew I'll go for closer to 1.080 plus cherries...)
My favorite yeast. I wish WhiteLabs had a match for it, since they're what my LHBS carries, plus I'm a few hours from their new Asheville NC place. (mom is a few miles)
j
I ferment (usually) with 3711, 66°-68° F ambient. No other temp control measures. I always get light pepperiness, and some fruit I attribute mostly to the Wai-iti, and a nice malty note. And incredible attenuation. (1.050 to 1.007 in about a week)
I pitched some 3711 in secondary on a cherry quad. It went from somewhere about 1.106 to about 1.028 on the WLP530, then the 3711 amazingly took it down to around 1.006! (currently aging, on rebrew I'll go for closer to 1.080 plus cherries...)
My favorite yeast. I wish WhiteLabs had a match for it, since they're what my LHBS carries, plus I'm a few hours from their new Asheville NC place. (mom is a few miles)
j
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
ok. good ideas here
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I was leaning toward RVA263 after the review of it being very spicy. However, they have 10 day turnaround. I might try to call around the stores listed on the RVA site to see if they'd ship me some (if it's not too old.)
I was also thinking of WY3711, but people are saying it is one-dimensional and "lemony." Is it SUPER lemony?
I was also thinking of WY3711, but people are saying it is one-dimensional and "lemony." Is it SUPER lemony?
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
wow, really? what temp do you store the saisons at once carbonated?
tgmartin000
Well-Known Member
White labs has a french saison strain, but never used it. However, I just learned wyeast now has their farmhouse strain in its year round lineup!
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I have a pound of Kohatu I'd like to use. I thought I had a pound of Motueka, but I guess I don't. Has anyone used Kohatu in saison?
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
Finally! I read through the entire thread! took several hours! lots of good info here. Thanks everyone for your hard work. m00ps, my god, how do you brew so many saisons?!
i have some good ideas for how to do this. i'm pretty intrigued by wy3711 with maybe hothead at this point. rye malt might figure in there somehow.
i have some good ideas for how to do this. i'm pretty intrigued by wy3711 with maybe hothead at this point. rye malt might figure in there somehow.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I just sampled my Rye Saison last night. Thank you so much to this thread!!! It is my best saison ever, or at least approaches my Spring 2008 saison that I have been trying to replicate! I used
10% rye malt
10% 2-row
80% Pils
pitched with WY3711 and Hothead - left at 67F for 24 hrs then ramped up to 90F for 6 days, kegged day 7 and sampled day 8
1.055 to 1.002 with a 150F mash temp and no mashout
It is dry, tart, fruity, spicy, delicious! I hope to play with more yeasts and more combinations. Can't really tell what the rye malt added. I'd have to do a side-by-side to know I think. The yeast is so dominant!
10% rye malt
10% 2-row
80% Pils
pitched with WY3711 and Hothead - left at 67F for 24 hrs then ramped up to 90F for 6 days, kegged day 7 and sampled day 8
1.055 to 1.002 with a 150F mash temp and no mashout
It is dry, tart, fruity, spicy, delicious! I hope to play with more yeasts and more combinations. Can't really tell what the rye malt added. I'd have to do a side-by-side to know I think. The yeast is so dominant!
WI_Wino
Well-Known Member
What's the other 70 percent of the grain bill?
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
sorry, i meant 80% pils. i corrected it. thanks!
tgmartin000
Well-Known Member
I'm really enjoying a saison I brewed with corn, using a blend of white labs and wyeast saison.
I made a starter from a vial of WLP565 and a packet of 3724, both belgian saison blends. After high krausen, I added 50 mL of 3711. This blend just finished it's 3rd beer, and the result, is very spicy and peppery, dry, and just slightly fruity. Very clean on the finish, it's a really great beer.
I made a starter from a vial of WLP565 and a packet of 3724, both belgian saison blends. After high krausen, I added 50 mL of 3711. This blend just finished it's 3rd beer, and the result, is very spicy and peppery, dry, and just slightly fruity. Very clean on the finish, it's a really great beer.
NothingRhymesWithCurtiss
Well-Known Member
My Saisons brewing experience is limited to 2 batches using Belle Saison, and while I enjoyed both, their taste and aroma was very similar, despite huge variants between batches.
Batch 1:
Maris Otter, Munich and White Wheat. Hops added at 60, 15, 5, and 0.)
Hallertau and Kent Goldings.
Temp Control at 65° F
FG 1.012
Batch 2:
2 Row, White Wheat and Victory.
Azacca and Jarrylo (No bittering additions. Hops split between 15, Whirlpool and Dry Hop.)
No Temp Control. Batch hit 82° F at one point.
FG 1.001
I still have 3 satchels of Belle Saison left, and really want to knock out at least 2 more Saisons before August (baby on the way). Any suggestions for a little "diversity" in the batches?
I have a Belgian Blonde batch going right now with some Abbaye yeast that I thought about blending some slurry in with my next Saison.
Another thought was to take the grain bill I have already bought for an upcoming Rye Pale ale, skip the Crystal 40, and ferment with Belle Saison.
Any/all advice is appreciated.
Thanks.
Batch 1:
Maris Otter, Munich and White Wheat. Hops added at 60, 15, 5, and 0.)
Hallertau and Kent Goldings.
Temp Control at 65° F
FG 1.012
Batch 2:
2 Row, White Wheat and Victory.
Azacca and Jarrylo (No bittering additions. Hops split between 15, Whirlpool and Dry Hop.)
No Temp Control. Batch hit 82° F at one point.
FG 1.001
I still have 3 satchels of Belle Saison left, and really want to knock out at least 2 more Saisons before August (baby on the way). Any suggestions for a little "diversity" in the batches?
I have a Belgian Blonde batch going right now with some Abbaye yeast that I thought about blending some slurry in with my next Saison.
Another thought was to take the grain bill I have already bought for an upcoming Rye Pale ale, skip the Crystal 40, and ferment with Belle Saison.
Any/all advice is appreciated.
Thanks.
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