Equipment Profile Mash Efficiency Influencers

[Dextersmom]

Hi Guys
I'm tweaking my equipment profiles again because I've had a few hiccups with batches where i've been way over my estimated efficiency (like 90% on an estimated 82%) and then in other batches under (70is on an estimated 80%). I've been poking around trying to figure how the program calculates these estimates. I wanted to simply adjust my estimated per profile based on the type of recipe - eg: much lower efficiency seen in a more high gravity mash. But adjusting the efficiency of the mash through the BH efficiency seems to be limited and actually won't change after a certain point. I have seen that that changing the losses to trub / chiller will affect mash efficiency...call me crazy but i don't understand why. call me even crazier because it seems to be an inverse relationship (more losses = increased mash efficiency - i don't understand how a change in a post boil value should affect a mash value and beyond that how having more loss will equate to better efficiency). I'm hoping there is a wizard out there that can help put this in perspective for me.

the predictions seem to be on point via my current system design when brewing in the mid range of gravities. when i move to lower gravity mashing my efficiency skyrockets compared to the estimate and then vice versa when moving to higher gravity mashes.
Any advice would be appreciated!
THanks
-K

 

[Holden Caulfield]

the predictions seem to be on point via my current system design when brewing in the mid range of gravities. when i move to lower gravity mashing my efficiency skyrockets compared to the estimate and then vice versa when moving to higher gravity mashes.

Here is a thread that will shed some light on the impact of OG on efficiency:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/efficiency-vs-conversion.175030/#post-9010014
Below is a chart that is in the thread that plots the relationship.

As you can see there are a lot of process variables including crush size, fermentables mashed or steeped, mash plan (temp, time, step, decoction), batch sparge vs fly sparge, number of batch sparge, etc, so dialing in the exact efficiency every time without a specific recipe's previous experience and a very consistent process will be challenging. Whatever brewing software you are using, I doubt there is a magic configuration for your system that will deliver on target efficiency every time if you change up recipes, OGs, and mash plans. You will come close, but some of the times you will have significant over and under OG experiences.

As an alternative approach to finding a magic configuration when outside your midrange OG brews, I do the following...

As I enjoy changing up my mash plan and recipes almost every time, my approach to this challenge is to set a slightly lower than expected mash efficiency, which results in just a couple dollars more grain. Then after lautering / sparging, I tend to either exceed or hit my preboil gravity which is easily adjusted by pouring off the required points and then adding back the volume of water. From my perspective, I would rather pour off a some points, then have to add DME which alters the recipe if the preboil OG comes up short. I would guess that whatever program you are using allows adjustments to its predicted efficiency which you could bump lower for high OG recipes, and just pour off the extra points to hit your preboil gravity target if needed for the low OG brews.

 

[TestTickle]

Hi Guys
I'm tweaking my equipment profiles again because I've had a few hiccups with batches where i've been way over my estimated efficiency (like 90% on an estimated 82%) and then in other batches under (70is on an estimated 80%). I've been poking around trying to figure how the program calculates these estimates. I wanted to simply adjust my estimated per profile based on the type of recipe - eg: much lower efficiency seen in a more high gravity mash. But adjusting the efficiency of the mash through the BH efficiency seems to be limited and actually won't change after a certain point. I have seen that that changing the losses to trub / chiller will affect mash efficiency...call me crazy but i don't understand why. call me even crazier because it seems to be an inverse relationship (more losses = increased mash efficiency - i don't understand how a change in a post boil value should affect a mash value and beyond that how having more loss will equate to better efficiency). I'm hoping there is a wizard out there that can help put this in perspective for me.

the predictions seem to be on point via my current system design when brewing in the mid range of gravities. when i move to lower gravity mashing my efficiency skyrockets compared to the estimate and then vice versa when moving to higher gravity mashes.
Any advice would be appreciated!
THanks
-K

What software are you using?

 

[marc1]

Hi Guys
I'm tweaking my equipment profiles again because I've had a few hiccups with batches where i've been way over my estimated efficiency (like 90% on an estimated 82%) and then in other batches under (70is on an estimated 80%). I've been poking around trying to figure how the program calculates these estimates. I wanted to simply adjust my estimated per profile based on the type of recipe - eg: much lower efficiency seen in a more high gravity mash. But adjusting the efficiency of the mash through the BH efficiency seems to be limited and actually won't change after a certain point. I have seen that that changing the losses to trub / chiller will affect mash efficiency...call me crazy but i don't understand why. call me even crazier because it seems to be an inverse relationship (more losses = increased mash efficiency - i don't understand how a change in a post boil value should affect a mash value and beyond that how having more loss will equate to better efficiency). I'm hoping there is a wizard out there that can help put this in perspective for me.

the predictions seem to be on point via my current system design when brewing in the mid range of gravities. when i move to lower gravity mashing my efficiency skyrockets compared to the estimate and then vice versa when moving to higher gravity mashes.
Any advice would be appreciated!
THanks
-K

I would think that you would tell your program what your mash/lauter efficiencies and dead space/boil/trub etc. losses are, and it would tell you your brewhouse efficiency.
User adjusted brewhouse efficiency for everything when making recipes doesn't seem logical...

 

[doug293cz]

I would think that you would tell your program what your mash/lauter efficiencies and dead space/boil/trub etc. losses are, and it would tell you your brewhouse efficiency.
User adjusted brewhouse efficiency for everything when making recipes doesn't seem logical...

Yet that is exactly what BeerSmith does.

Brew on

 

[csantoni]

I have two variables that seem to be fairly constant with my current setup: volumes (dead space, pre-boil, post-boil, etc) and what BS calls “mash efficiency” (which I think is technically mash+lauter efficiency). When building a recipe I target an OG, don’t change any of the volume measurements in my equipment profile, and adjust the brewhouse efficiency number until it shows a mash efficiency of 80%. Not sure if this is the right way to do it but it seems to work.

 

[doug293cz]

Hi Guys
I'm tweaking my equipment profiles again because I've had a few hiccups with batches where i've been way over my estimated efficiency (like 90% on an estimated 82%) and then in other batches under (70is on an estimated 80%). I've been poking around trying to figure how the program calculates these estimates. I wanted to simply adjust my estimated per profile based on the type of recipe - eg: much lower efficiency seen in a more high gravity mash. But adjusting the efficiency of the mash through the BH efficiency seems to be limited and actually won't change after a certain point. I have seen that that changing the losses to trub / chiller will affect mash efficiency...call me crazy but i don't understand why. call me even crazier because it seems to be an inverse relationship (more losses = increased mash efficiency - i don't understand how a change in a post boil value should affect a mash value and beyond that how having more loss will equate to better efficiency). I'm hoping there is a wizard out there that can help put this in perspective for me.

the predictions seem to be on point via my current system design when brewing in the mid range of gravities. when i move to lower gravity mashing my efficiency skyrockets compared to the estimate and then vice versa when moving to higher gravity mashes.
Any advice would be appreciated!
THanks
-K

Sounds like you might be using BeerSmith. If so, what you observe, that seems to make no sense, is a result of how BeerSmith estimates mash efficiency.

Let's start with some definitions:

Extract: Extract is the amount of dissolved solids in your wort, measured by weight. The dissolved solids are roughly 90% carbohydrates (sugars, dextrins, and soluble starches), and the balance is mostly proteins, along with some other minor constituents. Many writers will use "sugar" when they actually are referring to "extract."

Potential Extract: Potential extract is the maximum possible amount of extract that can be obtained from the grains being mashed.

Conversion Efficiency: Conversion efficiency is the ratio of the actual amount of extract created in a mash to the potential extract. Obtaining 100% conversion efficiency in a mash is possible.

Conversion Efficiency = Actual Amount of Extract created in mash / Potential Extract​

Lauter Efficiency: Lauter efficiency is the ratio of the amount of extract collected in your boil kettle to the amount of extract created in the mash. It's a measure of how well you removed the extract from the mash.

Lauter Efficiency = Amount of Extract collected in BK / Amount of Extract created in mash​

Lauter Efficiency = Volume of wort collected in BK / Volume of wort at end of mash​

Volume of wort at end of mash is larger than the strike water volume because the extract volume adds to the strike water volume. And unfortunately, you cannot directly measure the volume of wort in a mash, so the second equation cannot be used directly.

Mash Efficiency: Mash efficiency is the ratio of the amount of extract collected in the BK to the potential extract. Mash efficiency is not affected by boil-off volume, since only water is evaporated - no extract evaporates.

Mash Efficiency = Amount of Extract collected in BK / Potential Extract​

And a little algebra leads to:

Mash Efficiency = Conversion Efficiency * Lauter Efficiency​

​

Transfer Efficiency: Transfer efficiency is the ratio of amount of extract in the fermenter to the amount of extract in the BK. Since the concentration of extract does not change during the transfer, transfer efficiency is also equal to the volume ratio (if both volumes corrected for expansion to the same termperature):

Transfer Efficiency = Volume collected in fermenter / Volume in BK at end of boil​

Transfer efficiency is determined solely by the amount of trub plus unrecoverable wort (left in pumps, tubing, etc.) The more volume left behind the lower the transfer efficiency. The transfer loss volume is part of your equipment profile.

​

Brewhouse Efficiency: Brewhouse efficiency is the ratio of the amount of extract collected in the fermenter to the potential extract. A little algebra leads to:

Brewhouse Efficiency = Mash Efficiency * Transfer Efficiency​

​

You give BeerSmith your batch size (fermenter volume), transfer losses (in your equipment profile), and estimated brewhouse efficiency. BeerSmith then calculates your required post-boil volume as:

Post-Boil Volume = Batch Size + Transfer Losses​

And then, calculates your transfer efficiency as:

Transfer Efficiency = Batch Size / Post-Boil Volume​

​

Finally, BeerSmith calculates your Estimated Mash Efficiency as:

Estimated Mash Efficiency = BrewHouse Efficiency / Transfer Efficiency​

​

It is this last equation above that explains what is confusing you. If you increase your post-boil transfer losses, you decrease the transfer efficiency. If you divide the fixed brewhouse efficiency by a smaller number, the estimated mash efficiency increases!

BeerSmith makes no attempt to predict lauter efficiency, even tho the math for doing so is well known (here's my spreadsheet that does that. A version of this spreadsheet was used to create the chart posted earlier in this thread.) Thus, it makes no attempt to take into account the lower lauter efficiency that results from increasing grain bill size. To get BeerSmith to adjust for the effect of grain bill size, you would have to adjust your expected brewhouse efficiency, and input that manually into BeerSmith.

Brew on

 

[Dextersmom]

Sounds like you might be using BeerSmith. If so, what you observe, that seems to make no sense, is a result of how BeerSmith estimates mash efficiency.

Let's start with some definitions:

Extract: Extract is the amount of dissolved solids in your wort, measured by weight. The dissolved solids are roughly 90% carbohydrates (sugars, dextrins, and soluble starches), and the balance is mostly proteins, along with some other minor constituents. Many writers will use "sugar" when they actually are referring to "extract."

Potential Extract: Potential extract is the maximum possible amount of extract that can be obtained from the grains being mashed.

Conversion Efficiency: Conversion efficiency is the ratio of the actual amount of extract created in a mash to the potential extract. Obtaining 100% conversion efficiency in a mash is possible.

Conversion Efficiency = Actual Amount of Extract created in mash / Potential Extract​

Lauter Efficiency: Lauter efficiency is the ratio of the amount of extract collected in your boil kettle to the amount of extract created in the mash. It's a measure of how well you removed the extract from the mash.

Lauter Efficiency = Amount of Extract collected in BK / Amount of Extract created in mash​

Lauter Efficiency = Volume of wort collected in BK / Volume of wort at end of mash​

Volume of wort at end of mash is larger than the strike water volume because the extract volume adds to the strike water volume. And unfortunately, you cannot directly measure the volume of wort in a mash, so the second equation cannot be used directly.

Mash Efficiency: Mash efficiency is the ratio of the amount of extract collected in the BK to the potential extract. Mash efficiency is not affected by boil-off volume, since only water is evaporated - no extract evaporates.

Mash Efficiency = Amount of Extract collected in BK / Potential Extract​

And a little algebra leads to:

Mash Efficiency = Conversion Efficiency * Lauter Efficiency​

​

Transfer Efficiency: Transfer efficiency is the ratio of amount of extract in the fermenter to the amount of extract in the BK. Since the concentration of extract does not change during the transfer, transfer efficiency is also equal to the volume ratio (if both volumes corrected for expansion to the same termperature):

Transfer Efficiency = Volume collected in fermenter / Volume in BK at end of boil​

Transfer efficiency is determined solely by the amount of trub plus unrecoverable wort (left in pumps, tubing, etc.) The more volume left behind the lower the transfer efficiency. The transfer loss volume is part of your equipment profile.

​

Brewhouse Efficiency: Brewhouse efficiency is the ratio of the amount of extract collected in the fermenter to the potential extract. A little algebra leads to:

Brewhouse Efficiency = Mash Efficiency * Transfer Efficiency​

​

You give BeerSmith your batch size (fermenter volume), transfer losses (in your equipment profile), and estimated brewhouse efficiency. BeerSmith then calculates your required post-boil volume as:

Post-Boil Volume = Batch Size + Transfer Losses​

And then, calculates your transfer efficiency as:

Transfer Efficiency = Batch Size / Post-Boil Volume​

​

Finally, BeerSmith calculates your Estimated Mash Efficiency as:

Estimated Mash Efficiency = BrewHouse Efficiency / Transfer Efficiency​

​

It is this last equation above that explains what is confusing you. If you increase your post-boil transfer losses, you decrease the transfer efficiency. If you divide the fixed brewhouse efficiency by a smaller number, the estimated mash efficiency increases!

BeerSmith makes no attempt to predict lauter efficiency, even tho the math for doing so is well known (here's my spreadsheet that does that. A version of this spreadsheet was used to create the chart posted earlier in this thread.) Thus, it makes no attempt to take into account the lower lauter efficiency that results from increasing grain bill size. To get BeerSmith to adjust for the effect of grain bill size, you would have to adjust your expected brewhouse efficiency, and input that manually into BeerSmith.

Brew on

Thank you for that response.... And for the detailed explanation... First I must apologize. In my haste I thought I was posting on the beersmith forum.
But yes I'm tweaking my beersmith profiles.
Usually adjusting the overall BH efficiency to compensate has worked in the past... For some reason today when working with it and trying to create some profiles that better fit a high gravity brew, there became a point where adjusting the BHE would no longer influence the ME. But your explanation helps me at least realize I wasn't completely crazy in thinking something was missing... I wonder why this is the case in beersmith and they don't compensate for the transfer / lauter efficiencies.


Thank you for all the responses everyone! Cheers

 

[doug293cz]

Thank you for that response.... And for the detailed explanation... First I must apologize. In my haste I thought I was posting on the beersmith forum.
But yes I'm tweaking my beersmith profiles.
Usually adjusting the overall BH efficiency to compensate has worked in the past... For some reason today when working with it and trying to create some profiles that better fit a high gravity brew, there became a point where adjusting the BHE would no longer influence the ME. But your explanation helps me at least realize I wasn't completely crazy in thinking something was missing... I wonder why this is the case in beersmith and they don't compensate for the transfer / lauter efficiencies.


Thank you for all the responses everyone! Cheers

BeerSmith does account for the transfer efficiency, it does not account for the affect that grain bill size has on lauter efficiency. I have no idea why BS does it this way, but I imagine if it was changed to a more rational way of estimating efficiency, the users who have become comfortable with how BS works now would howl about having a new learning curve to climb.

Brew on

 

[RufusBrewer]

In my mind there is only one efficiency. Mash (pre-boil) conversion efficiency. How much wort you have at a measured gravity. Divide that to the hypothetical what if you got "perfect" 100% efficiency.

The rest is not really efficiency, IMHO. It is knowing where and how much wort your brew rig retains wort that does not make it into the fermentor.

I calculate brew house efficiency backwards, starting with fermenter volume.

Determine desired volume in your fermentor.

Add up calculated rig retention losses into your ferment vessel.

Factor in boil of volume. (Note that boil off does not affect efficiency)

Estimate (assume) mash efficiency and calculate trailing required for your pre boil volume. Mash efficiency can be tricky. If you batch sparge or BIAG, it will not be a constant value, from batch to batch. Large grain bills will retain a greater volume of wort (at a higher gravity) than a small grain bill. Mash tun dead space impacts efficiency vale more on a small beer.

My point is do not look at this is one big formula, where you plug in a bunch of numbers and out pops XX% efficiency. Evaluate each step, mash efficiency, boil off rate, brew rig wort retention values. Calculate each one and then add them together.

When you miscalculate the brew rig loss, the brew house efficiency hoes up or down. It does not affect the quality of your beer. It only affects the volume of beer.

When you brew a batch, take notes of each step, before and after. Measure gravity and volume. Evaluate how each step affected you wort. What did you start with, what did you end up with.