My "house strain".
A blend of 3 cultured dry yeasts. MJ m42, Fermoale AY3 and Brewly English Ale, the last 2 are domestically produced so that's nice.
English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?
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A blend of 3 cultured dry yeasts. MJ m42, Fermoale AY3 and Brewly English Ale, the last 2 are domestically produced so that's nice.
DuncB
Well-Known Member
Not sure if this will count as an English ale.
100% Brett fermenting IPA, ale malt, wheat malt, gladiator and sour grapes.
Lot of C hops.
Not really sure how it will turn out, but it's going great at 36 hours.
Being careful to keep it away from the rest of the brewery.
I suppose an American IPA but thought it might be of interest.
Further question any thoughts on inverting Lactose and using that in a brew? Think I'll just have to invert some and see what it tastes like. If it's awful I'll save it for the bees.
100% Brett fermenting IPA, ale malt, wheat malt, gladiator and sour grapes.
Lot of C hops.
Not really sure how it will turn out, but it's going great at 36 hours.
Being careful to keep it away from the rest of the brewery.
I suppose an American IPA but thought it might be of interest.
Further question any thoughts on inverting Lactose and using that in a brew? Think I'll just have to invert some and see what it tastes like. If it's awful I'll save it for the bees.
Inverting lactose? What?
DuncB
Well-Known Member
Well it's a sugar and glucose and galactose are fermentable.
Brewskey
Well-Known Member
I'm no expert, but I've never heard of that being done and I'm not sure that it wold work using traditional methods for inverting sucrose.
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
Which Brett strain are you using?
We've discussed the lactose thing here but would be interesting to hear from someone who has used it for beer as opposed to distllling.
Got my mild to brew today. Due to travel and knee replacement been almost 3 months since my last brew.
InspectorJon
Well-Known Member
For those that do not follow the Random Picture thread I thought you might enjoy this.
Reminded me I need to get me some proper dimple mugs...
Pint a' mild, please!
Preparing bottles for tonight.
Gonna bottle the Old Ale later, will see what the hydrometer says but it has been stable the 2 readings I took about 5-6 weeks apart. According to a conversion calculator it was at 1.007 so I suspect to be somewhere about 1.010-to a little bit under that.
Gonna bottle the Old Ale later, will see what the hydrometer says but it has been stable the 2 readings I took about 5-6 weeks apart. According to a conversion calculator it was at 1.007 so I suspect to be somewhere about 1.010-to a little bit under that.
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What is the difference beween a strong ale and an old ale?
What the brewer decided to call it I'd guess.
To my understanding though historically an Old Ale was a strong hoppier mild that was aged and worked by brett etc, and a stock ale a pale ale.
Mine probably falls more in the Old Ale category.
To my understanding though historically an Old Ale was a strong hoppier mild that was aged and worked by brett etc, and a stock ale a pale ale.
Mine probably falls more in the Old Ale category.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
Old Ale is a historic beer category. From what I know Strong Ale is a modern phrase that is currently used for those beers above an ESB, with 6-7% ABV, that some breweries are pumping out.
Old Ale used to categorise the fact that the beer had been aged. Nowadays many breweries use the word 'Old' for any beer that is stronger than usual, so you will find many 5.%+ ABV beers called Old. Many of those beers I would classify as ESBs.
I've always viewed them.as basically the same, defined largely by whether the brewer intends them to be aged.
Franktalk
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I've always thought that an old ale was a strong, dark ale that had been aged; therefore, giving it all the attributes that we expect from aging, enhanced malt flavors sometimes with a port wine character , esters of raisins and dark fruit, solid bittering that has rounded with time, and a touch of sour or bret-like flavor or mouthfeel. A strong ale may have the strength, but the old ale must have the characteristics that come from age.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
I'd say historically this boils down to XXXX ale being a strong mild ale and all the different K ales all being old ales, no matter the strength.
But then you get in to the old vs stock ale distinction...
Colindo
Well-Known Member
That did not exist historically. Old Ale is a word far newer than stock ale. I would be surprised if both existed at the same time (though I'm no expert on the topic).
That's my impression too (I mean, the sensory qualities connoted by "Old Ale"). Particularly the comment "esters of raisins and dark fruit." Nicely put.
DuncB
Well-Known Member
Not sure I wrangled it from an 8 wired keg of barrel aged Brett only ferment beer.
Nice one! I have a Victorian style porter in the basement in the same range. Should also be ready to bottle. But I actually want to wait till I have a proper wort that I can throw on the yeast cake to keep it going. Was about one year in there... I wonder if there's enough viable cells for a healthy fermentation or if I should add some dry yeast to give it a headstart.
It will likely be in effect a brett only beer since that probably is the only yeast still alive in there...
Tasted some during bottling.
Very prominent sort of pineapple and/or mango flavour and arome, slightly boozy and just a hint of acidity.
Malt flavours were still there and it tasted "fresh" and still quite hoppy despite being almost a year old, some toastyness from the amber malt.
This will probably be really nice when the leathery/tobacco and raisin flavours start coming with some more age.
Gonna brew up some late victorian/early edwardian inspired milds for summer to blend with...
Very prominent sort of pineapple and/or mango flavour and arome, slightly boozy and just a hint of acidity.
Malt flavours were still there and it tasted "fresh" and still quite hoppy despite being almost a year old, some toastyness from the amber malt.
This will probably be really nice when the leathery/tobacco and raisin flavours start coming with some more age.
Gonna brew up some late victorian/early edwardian inspired milds for summer to blend with...
Brewskey
Well-Known Member
Brett C. ? I'm planning to do an old ale probably after the new year.
Yup, C. From whitelabs.
After WW I almost no Old Ales were really aged. There were odd examples, but most were just strong and usually dark. You get dark fruit flavours. But they'd be coming from the sugar, most notably, No. 3 invert.
I used to get that quality from dark caramel - particularly Baird's 135-165. Notes are next to non-existent but memory also indicates Northdown, in strong dark ales, in particular (I believe the malt bill was kept constant, and I switched up to northdown later....so indicating a possible connection. Memory is dodgier on the hops contribution, though and at least by ND descriptors, that doesn't make sense on paper).
I called it "baked dark, rich fruit - like roast plums."
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
Has anyone performed an inversion process on sucanat? What were the results?
Brewskey
Well-Known Member
Looks like it's basically a cleverly named turbinado sugar made by our friends at Ragus. Should work fine.
"Sucanat is a registered trademark of Ragus Holdings, Inc. Sucanat stands for SUgar CAne NATural (SU CA NAT) and is made by crushing the sugar cane, extracting the juice then heating it."
Sucanat
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huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
Not quite the same as turbinado... but one would think it would still invert just fine. Has anyone done this to report the results?
Food
Healthland
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure whether they are equivalent or not and their websites don't give details about molasses contents for comparison purposes.
Basically, I just want to know if anyone has inverted sucanat (the brand) and what the results were.
Basically, I just want to know if anyone has inverted sucanat (the brand) and what the results were.
It is possible the refining process inverts some proportion of the product. Adding 5% directly to the next brew would likely give a good indication of its potential influence.
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
Brewed this:
8.5 lbs Maris Otter Pale
.5 lbs Medium Crystal 77L
.25 lbs Pale Chocolate 230L
1 lbs Torrified Wheat
1 lbs Sucanat Invert @ 10 mins
1 oz Mt Hood @ 60 min
1 oz Amarillo @ 15 min
Wyeast 1968
147F for 45 min
158F for 45 min
Mashed w/ RO Water @ 250 ppm sulfate and 150 ppm chloride.
1lb sucanat inverted with 85% phosphoric acid + RO water in stovetop pot for 1.5 hrs. Foamed a lot but gained a dark color. Left in pot overnight, smelled strong with orange and molasses when added to the kettle.
OG 1.061 @ 5.25 gallons
FG ?
Fermenting w/ 1968 @ 70F for 48 hrs, 71 - 74 for 24 hrs ea.
Small cap of krausen @ 8 hrs, about 2" of krausen @ 12 hrs., @ 60hrs foam has fallen back but fermentation continues.
No access to Gold or Goldings hops ATM, used American and also got more extract from the mash than expected. This might fit in the ESB category stat wise but will be interesting to note how the sucanat contributes.
8.5 lbs Maris Otter Pale
.5 lbs Medium Crystal 77L
.25 lbs Pale Chocolate 230L
1 lbs Torrified Wheat
1 lbs Sucanat Invert @ 10 mins
1 oz Mt Hood @ 60 min
1 oz Amarillo @ 15 min
Wyeast 1968
147F for 45 min
158F for 45 min
Mashed w/ RO Water @ 250 ppm sulfate and 150 ppm chloride.
1lb sucanat inverted with 85% phosphoric acid + RO water in stovetop pot for 1.5 hrs. Foamed a lot but gained a dark color. Left in pot overnight, smelled strong with orange and molasses when added to the kettle.
OG 1.061 @ 5.25 gallons
FG ?
Fermenting w/ 1968 @ 70F for 48 hrs, 71 - 74 for 24 hrs ea.
Small cap of krausen @ 8 hrs, about 2" of krausen @ 12 hrs., @ 60hrs foam has fallen back but fermentation continues.
No access to Gold or Goldings hops ATM, used American and also got more extract from the mash than expected. This might fit in the ESB category stat wise but will be interesting to note how the sucanat contributes.
I just bottled the bitter I had thrown on the yeast cake of my old ale which was fermened with notti/s04 one pack each. Naturally most of the yeast is now at least one generation away from the generation that has been shocked through the drying process.
The yeast flocculates better and the English ester character is more pronounced than usual. 80% attenuation is pretty solid as well. I think there might be something going on. For my next Brew, I will step up a quarter of a pack of yeast two times and see how this behaves. If that's the solution for getting the right esters out of dry yeast then I happily step them up every time.
The yeast flocculates better and the English ester character is more pronounced than usual. 80% attenuation is pretty solid as well. I think there might be something going on. For my next Brew, I will step up a quarter of a pack of yeast two times and see how this behaves. If that's the solution for getting the right esters out of dry yeast then I happily step them up every time.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
The basic problem is that old ale is one of those ill-defined terms that varies through time and geography, so if you are looking for One True Definition you will be disappointed and confused.
But it's perhaps best viewed in the same light as IPA, where the modern ones can either represent the wider evolution of British beers since the 19th century, getting weaker and less bitter until you end up with Greene King IPA, or "retro" where people have gone back to the 19th century versions for inspiration but not direct copies. So there's three different kinds of beers - the "true" old ales (high ABV, aged in wood with noticeable contributions from bacteria and wild yeast) are virtually extinct, about the only mainstream example left is the newly revived Gale's Prize Old Ale (even if it only dates back to 1923; Martyn Cornell has written two nice articles which between them give a pretty good recipe, and the 2023 iteration recently went on sale) and I guess Greene King 5X. But they are beyond niche, although there's starting to be a few modern ones, Marble have produced some after being involved in the first attempt to revive POA.
In southeast England, the evolutionary path has led to a beer called Old Ale taking the place of a dark mild in the lineups of eg Adnams (4.1% "first brewed 1890") and Harvey's (3.6%, they even do a dealcoholised version). But up north, old ale tends to be used for "high ABV, like in the old days"; brewed "clean" with just Saccharomyces and may not even be dark. The BJCP would call Thomas Sykes (10%) from Burton Bridge a golden barleywine - effectively it's a clone of Whitbread Gold Label - but it identifies as an old ale. They will sometimes put TS in wooden barrels but AIUI steel is the norm.
But try putting all that lot into a neat category like the BJCP try to do....
Well you shouldn't be classifying anything as an ESB if you want to be British about things, it's a brand not a category... Even BJCP deprecate the term now, the 4.6-6.2% ranged 11C category has become Strong Bitter ("In England today, “ESB” is a Fullers trademark, and no one thinks of it as a generic class of beer. It is a unique (but very well-known) beer that has a very strong, complex malt profile not found in other examples, often leading judges to overly penalize traditional English strong bitters"). Personally I think it would be helpful to refer to the other main London brewery at that level rather than Fuller's and just call it Special, which would also sort of tie in with German classification, but Young's don't exactly help things by putting theirs in cask at 4.5% and bottling at 6.4% so I don't think that would fly.
Strong ale is another of those vague terms that gets used differently in different parts of the country so you can't really generalise. It's not helped by the advertising watchdog's unhappiness with anything that emphasises the alcohol in beer - according to the EBCU the word "strong" was actually banned from beer advertising in the 1960s which I suspect explains why "old" started getting used as a substitute. In most of the country, "strong" can be applied to pretty much anything that is stronger than beers served on cask, where the limit is generally 4.5%-ish, 5% tops. So they tend to be seen mostly in bottle, and only on cask for special occasions, perhaps in the run-up to Christmas.
London is a bit of an exception for various reasons including functional public transport, so you get the likes of ESB as a "regular" beer at 5.5% but that's not normal in most of the country. So in Cornwall you get Snozzell HSD described as a strong ale at 5%, Marston even call their low-carb Resolution a strong ale at 4.7% which is pushing it a bit; but certainly up north you will see a lot of the 5-6% dark-ish beers like Riggwelter (5.7%) described as strong ales. Whereas in Fuller's country it seems that the term only really applies to beers over the old 7.5% tax level.
So as always, you have to understand the regional variations and not try to apply a blanket definition to the whole of the UK, as it just doesn't work like that. And personally I'm a bit wary of retrofitting a style to match what is often just one or two individual beers, like how the BJCP tried to invent northern brown to accommodate Newky Brown.
Brilliant post NB.
I'm looking for the reflection of the fearless fellow who baught himself a pint of a 10% abv brew down there in the Thomas Sykes glass.
He better had roast dinner upfront.
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