English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Colindo]

Well you shouldn't be classifying anything as an ESB if you want to be British about things, it's a brand not a category...

I was actually hesitating at that sentence for that very reason but then thought with the way it is used in this thread I could get away with it. Apparently not ;-)

Thanks for the descriptions about all the other ales. Some crass outliers had escaped my memory, even though I have seen both HSD and Harvey's Old Ale in shops before. I think parts of your statement can be summarised by "Don't look at the names that are on the labels", since these mess up any classifications more than they help.

By the way, "Spezial" in Germany has an equal amount of regional variation, meaning quite different things in different parts of the country.

I'm looking for the reflection of the fearless fellow who baught himself a pint of a 10% abv brew down there in the Thomas Sykes glass.

Beers like these used to be served in third-pint glasses. Hope that was the same here.

 

[Miraculix]

I was actually hesitating at that sentence for that very reason but then thought with the way it is used in this thread I could get away with it. Apparently not ;-)

Thanks for the descriptions about all the other ales. Some crass outliers had escaped my memory, even though I have seen both HSD and Harvey's Old Ale in shops before. I think parts of your statement can be summarised by "Don't look at the names that are on the labels", since these mess up any classifications more than they help.

By the way, "Spezial" in Germany has an equal amount of regional variation, meaning quite different things in different parts of the country.


Beers like these used to be served in third-pint glasses. Hope that was the same here.

The picture says 1 pint

 

[Colindo]

The picture says 1 pint

Wait what? You're right, I didn't check all the pictures. Good lord!

Reminds me of a comment on one of Martyn Cornell's posts where someone remembered his time in the Kentish hop gardens and that one huge worker used to have two pints of barley wine for lunch. He was told to stay well away from him in the afternoons.

 

[HM-2]

Wait what? You're right, I didn't check all the pictures. Good lord!

Reminds me of a comment on one of Martyn Cornell's posts where someone remembered his time in the Kentish hop gardens and that one huge worker used to have two pints of barley wine for lunch. He was told to stay well away from him in the afternoons.

Two pints of barley wine with lunch, or two pints of barley wine for lunch?!

 

[Colindo]

With lunch!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I was actually hesitating at that sentence for that very reason but then thought with the way it is used in this thread I could get away with it. Apparently not ;-)

Given the proportion of Brits on this thread, it's probably the last place you could get away with it! But given that these days even the BJCP are deprecating its use as a style name, there's no real excuse to continue using it.

Some crass outliers had escaped my memory, even though I have seen both HSD and Harvey's Old Ale in shops before. I think parts of your statement can be summarised by "Don't look at the names that are on the labels", since these mess up any classifications more than they help.

But they're not outliers, they just demonstrate what a range there is (in he eyes of actual British brewers). My message is not so much "ignore things that are inconvenient" as "embrace the variety, as trying to force a classification on this mess is futile". It makes total sense in Cornwall for Hicks to be described as a strong ale - it's the fancy option for tourists, it's not what is drunk by the working population in a poor area. And I suspect the Harvey's may well be the biggest-selling Old Ale in the UK - it's not an exception, it should be the beer that defines the "category".....

Beers like these used to be served in third-pint glasses. Hope that was the same here.

It's associated with cask culture, where halves are the small option. I've seen it occasionally at festivals where it was only offered in halves, this picture was taken in a pub about 20 miles north of Burton so I guess they're happy to keep pushing it through. The guy has over 8k Untappd checkins, so I imagine his liver can take it....

 

[Gadjobrinus]

It's associated with cask culture, where halves are the small option. I've seen it occasionally at festivals where it was only offered in halves, this picture was taken in a pub about 20 miles north of Burton so I guess they're happy to keep pushing it through. The guy has over 8k Untappd checkins, so I imagine his liver can take it....

I have a vague memory of the Battersea Festival when my wife and I were in London. Part of it is a lousy memory anymore, and part of it....is I didn't know the meaning of halves. Full steam ahead.

 

[Colindo]

@Northern_Brewer I'm pretty sure it was in this thread that I read multiple times something along the lines "I'm brewing an ESB". But point taken, will call it Strong Bitter here now, as I already do everywhere else.

What I was referring to when talking about the labels is the fact that beers can be named completely different on the label compared to the brewhouse. Ron's blog is full of examples like that, and if a St. Austell marketing director thought that the beer sells better (especially to tourists) if the words "Strong Ale" are on it, then that might not be what the brewers think of it. In that case I would check if there are signs indicating that it is just a strong bitter, for example if ingredients are the same as for Tribute, just scaled up for strength, or even just that the brewery does not have any beer called strong bitter to distinguish it from.
If all that is not the case and the HSD is remarkably different in flavour compared to a strong bitter, which in my opinion is the case (I drank it in comparison with Adnam's Broadside and Fuller's 1845 this summer and they fit very well together), then it is proper to call it a strong ale no matter what the label says.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Ordered me some pint sized dimple mugs, that roundel is nice because then I can print them with my house brewery logo in the future...

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Can’t beat a straight pint glass for bitter.

 

[HM-2]

Can’t beat a straight pint glass for bitter.

I've always gravitated to a Nonic where available for my British beers.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I have a set of Nonic pint glasses but I like a proper dimple once in a while aswell.
Gives a rustic feel, especially to darker ales.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I have a set of Nonic pint glasses but I like a proper dimple once in a while aswell.
Gives a rustic feel, especially to darker ales.

Never heard them called that always just a straight glass.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Nonic man meself for bitters, love the dimples for milds and browns.

 

[Colindo]

Has anyone ever considered buying the lantern tankard? I was pondering the option but it seems they only ship within the UK.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Never heard them called that always just a straight glass.

That's because they are different kinds, Nonic are the ones with the bulge near the top, straigh pints are often thicker also.

 

[balrog]

Straight pint glass man here, no matter the style, not a purist, no room for myriad glassware anyway.

Sometimes a coffee cup.

Rarely a plastic cup.

Never straight from the keg (that I'll ever admit)

 

[Miraculix]

I got one pint glass and that's what I use. I need to buy myself some more in case of breakage.

Also, I just broke my favourite 0.3l glass which is a pity. Now I need a proper replacement for that one as well. Properly these wine glasses without a long foot or however these long stands are called. I think the ones without it are popular for whites. My favourite 0.3 glass was almost the same shape as these. It was brilliant.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Get on my level plebs.

 

[Shenanigans]

I'm the worst ever for breaking glasses.

Anyone in Ireland around my age would see those dimple glasses as classic British.
They were widespread in Ireland until the 70s or 80s but then almost disappeared.
You would only see them on British TV channels when there was a scene where they were drinking in the pub.
One of my friends used to even call them Cornation Street glasses.

Witherspoons is probably still one of the only pubs where you would see them nowaydays.

 

[Witherby]

That's because they are different kinds, Nonic are the ones with the bulge near the top, straigh pints are often thicker also.

Kevin Kain has written about the surprising history of the nonic
Revisiting the Nonik Glass History — Casket Beer

And a nice comparison of the English dimple mug vs the Tübinger:
https://www.casketbeer.com/home/2020/11/21/not-all-mugs-are-created-equalNot All Dimple Mugs are Created Equal — Casket Beer

I definitely like a nonic for most of my English beers.

 

[Miraculix]

There is only one type of glass for British beer and it comes with straight sides or with a little bump all around the upper part and it fits a pint. That's it. Let the German tell it to all of you heretics!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

But what about Brittish ale? Are we talkin hopped malt beverages or bittered with herbs?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Get on my level plebs.

Hah, is that all? It's a good job I'm away from home, that's barely my festival beer glass cupboard, then there's the daily drinking cupboard, the Riedel cupboard, the ordinary wineglass cupboard, the backup glass cupboard, the decanter cupboard....

There is only one type of glass ...or...

Good job we don't rely on you to count....

You're forgetting the tulip, although that's more of a northern thing. Personally I don't have a strong preference either way, I'm less keen on conicals ("straights") just because they're thicker, although that's exactly why they're more popular with pubs! Dimple glasses are a bit of a pain in glass washers and don't stack, they stopped making them at one point but there has been a small retro revival in recent years.

Lantern glasses are OK, but I'm not a particular fan, same with the "circular" handled glasses.

 

[huckdavidson]

Glass anoraks.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Hah, is that all? It's a good job I'm away from home, that's barely my festival beer glass cupboard, then there's the daily drinking cupboard, the Riedel cupboard, the ordinary wineglass cupboard, the backup glass cupboard, the decanter cupboard....


Good job we don't rely on you to count....

You're forgetting the tulip, although that's more of a northern thing. Personally I don't have a strong preference either way, I'm less keen on conicals ("straights") just because they're thicker, although that's exactly why they're more popular with pubs! Dimple glasses are a bit of a pain in glass washers and don't stack, they stopped making them at one point but there has been a small retro revival in recent years.

Lantern glasses are OK, but I'm not a particular fan, same with the "circular" handled glasses.
View attachment 835923

I wasn't thinking - I like the Nonik mostly because it confirms I'm drinking a proper pint, but the TT is my favorite actually.

Riedel. When we had our restaurant my wife was honored by the US Women Chefs & Restauranteurs and sent to the International Pinot Noir Celebration in Willamette Valley, OR. Partied with French Burgundy maven Martine Saunier and Riedel, lots of photos of lots of bottles sitting right next to them. I was chef and she ran the front of house (and a million other duties). As I am religiously devoted to the miscreant little grape, to say I was a tad jealous is putting it mildly.

 

[DuncB]

There is only one type of glass for British beer and it comes with straight sides or with a little bump all around the upper part and it fits a pint. That's it. Let the German tell it to all of you heretics!

Oh nonic it isn't.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Cooked up some invert last night for a brew next week. 15 min simmer after adding acid and 15 more after adding soda. Probably some minor caramellisation and maillard effects but most of the colour is from dark sugar in the mix.
Gonna be a 1.055 vaguely Riggwelter and the like inspired beer.

 

[Agent]

You guys got me to try my hand at invert again. I tried to make three lbs of #3 with pure sugar plus molasses. Started stovetop and moved into the oven. Didn't get to the color I wanted in the time I had, but should work as a #2.

I've got a near-beer sitting on a cake of Wyeast 1275 - Thames Valley.

Now I just have to check the hop stash to see if I can make a respectable bitter, or if it's something closer to a mild.

Choices, choices!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

You're forgetting the tulip, although that's more of a northern thing.

As an aside, I see Machine House in Seattle are selling branded tulips (pint/half) and dimples (pint - all imperial, obvs) which may be the easiest way for anyone in the US to get hold of some without having to buy wholesale quantities :
https://machinehousebrewery.square.site/

 

[Peebee]

I've finally got my access to this forum sorted ... and the thread I'm interested in has gone all quiet!!!

But I'm sure my appearance might wake someone up? ...

 

[balrog]

You've missed a rousing discussion of eleventy-million posts about invert sugar.

 

[Peebee]

You've missed a rousing discussion of eleventy-million posts about invert sugar.

Damn!

Too late to go for twelvety-million?

 

[balrog]

Well, I've stayed out of all that discussion mostly because I tried it once, made some #2-ish, used it, fought it all the way out of the mason jar kicking and screaming and clinging to the inner walls with super sticky abandon, and decided purchasing some Lyle's Golden was much easier for the styles I make. Others are more adventuresome. I'm just lazy.

 

[Franktalk]

Well, I've stayed out of all that discussion mostly because I tried it once, made some #2-ish, used it, fought it all the way out of the mason jar kicking and screaming and clinging to the inner walls with super sticky abandon, and decided purchasing some Lyle's Golden was much easier for the styles I make. Others are more adventuresome. I'm just lazy.

All you have to do is put the jar into some hot water for a little while, and you can pour it much easier that way.

 

[Franktalk]

I've finally got my access to this forum sorted ... and the thread I'm interested in has gone all quiet!!!

But I'm sure my appearance might wake someone up? ...

Welcome, Peebee! I think you will make a splash on this side of the pond!

 

[Peebee]

... Others are more adventuresome. I'm just lazy.

That's what I'd advocate (I'm particularly "lazy" about it). But what I say goes down well with the quiet majority, but really rubs-up the noisy minority the wrong way. As I think @Franktalk is implying:

... I think you will make a splash on this side of the pond!

Anyway, what I really want to learn is: From somewhere around the end of 19th C. UK brewers did use propriety sugars that will have involve caramelising. Ron Pattinson has been ranting about them too:

https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2023/12/barley-wine-sugars-1970-1982.html
(Warning: No restraint on use of expletives!).

Now, whatever I think about "Brewers' Invert Sugars/Syrups" (it seems to have been talked about in this thread!), has anyone been researching into these sugars? (Second table). I'm sure Mr Pattinson would be interested in that sort of stuff too!

 

[Peebee]

Well, that fell flat! But sugar is an important ingredient in 20th C. UK beers. "Brewers' Invert Sugar" from the 19th C. is, I think, well stitched up (personally, I don't even bother with the "inverting" bit 'cos I can't perceive any difference to flavour that "inverting" achieves).

I'll try again: This is "table 2" from that barclayperkins.blogspot.com site mentioned above:

So what are PEX, CWA, DS, SLS, Fermax? There's a suggestion in the "comments, such as "DS" stands for "diastase syrup"? Could well be, and if so perhaps should be absorbed into the base malt, not the Invert Sugar as is the usual way? Some would obviously make a very different beer depending on descision ... like that "Whitbread Gold Label" with 21.41% of something called "SMS".

That is what I'd like to see. All these "propriety sugars" grouped into generic categories such that when you see "Fermax" you might reach for a caramelised syrup of "NN SRM", etc.

Has anyone done the like?

 

[balrog]

I gotta tap out on this one, I have no clue.

 

[huckdavidson]

Well, that fell flat! But sugar is an important ingredient in 20th C. UK beers. "Brewers' Invert Sugar" from the 19th C. is, I think, well stitched up (personally, I don't even bother with the "inverting" bit 'cos I can't perceive any difference to flavour that "inverting" achieves).

I'll try again: This is "table 2" from that barclayperkins.blogspot.com site mentioned above:

View attachment 836504

So what are PEX, CWA, DS, SLS, Fermax? There's a suggestion in the "comments, such as "DS" stands for "diastase syrup"? Could well be, and if so perhaps should be absorbed into the base malt, not the Invert Sugar as is the usual way? Some would obviously make a very different beer depending on descision ... like that "Whitbread Gold Label" with 21.41% of something called "SMS".

That is what I'd like to see. All these "propriety sugars" grouped into generic categories such that when you see "Fermax" you might reach for a caramelised syrup of "NN SRM", etc.

Has anyone done the like?

Those are most likely abbreviations for company names. At that time they may have produced sugar products used in brewing:

These are best guesses:

PEX - Alcohol & Sugar Industry - Industrial Applications - Pexgol
CWA - Home | Nestlé Central & West Africa
DS - Welcome to DS Sugars
SLS - no longer in the sugar business?
Fermax - no longer in the sugar business?