English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

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-sorry, Sunday Times, Peter Millar. He gave me his contact info and was a truly interesting guy. Closed the Pear Tree with him, in conversation one night. Hotel, aforementioned. Mr. and Mrs. Sivyer of the Pear Tree were extraordinarily gracious and generous hosts. John drove my wife and myself up to the Banbury, passing by Blenheim Palace along the way. And I believe the brewer from Titanic's name is Ian Bradford, though I'm sad to say I can't find his business card.
 
We've not seen @McMullan for a while, think he might have left the forum. But his posts on the use of Yorkshire yeast were informative. Amongst many other views.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/english-ales-whats-your-favorite-recipe.472464/post-9262103
I don't think I recall him but I've been seeing his posts since I've come back. Lots to learn from him. Funny - from an old thread of mine on Yorkshire squares at home, re-read a member @McKnuckle who was very passionate about the area as well. I wonder if he's still around, always really liked his posts.
 
I don't think I recall him but I've been seeing his posts since I've come back. Lots to learn from him. Funny - from an old thread of mine on Yorkshire squares at home, re-read a member @McKnuckle who was very passionate about the area as well. I wonder if he's still around, always really liked his posts.
He's a fun guy, I hope he's all right and doing well!
 
I always find these histories exciting, because there are so many contradicting each other. For example there is this quote from the UK brewery map:
In these cases, I'm always reminded of Darwin's version of the Dunning-Kruger effect - "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."

Particularly when you see confident statements that show complete ignorance of how yeast work "*is* 1469 West Yorkshire Ale / Omega OYL-014 British Ale VII". At best the stuff you get from yeast labs is a many-generations descendant from one strain of what is often a multistrain. But it's never identical - a familiar example is how Verdant took London Ale III and after a few years of repitching they had what Lallemand sell as Verdant IPA - it's similar but not the same.

Whereas you'll notice that when I talk about yeast there's always lots of "seems" and "it is claimed", if I make a statement of fact then I usually bring receipts - in this case a professional brewer who went on a behind-the-scenes tour of Taylor's in 2018 with the Brewery History Society :
"The brewhouse came from the wrong side of the Pennines, originally being from Oldham brewery....The yeast also came from Oldham brewery and they've been continuously re-pitching for 36 years."

Or you could trust a comment on a random map with no attribution. It has some nuggets of truth but I would take a lot of it with a pinch of salt It's quite plausible that 1469 came from Courage originally, genetics suggests it may well have come from the south, but who knows what the link with Taylor's is. And this is what the actual Taylor yeast looks like :
1701093282734.png


A good test of these things is 1318 - just look at the map's confident take "Boddington's Brewery yeast strain, from the Strangeways Brewery in Manchester (which was demolished in 2004) is 1318 London Ale III / Omega OYL-011 British Ale V"

We know (if you trust Ron's transcription skills) that in its heyday in the 1970s Boddies was getting apparent attenuation over 90% from a yeast they got from Tadcaster in 1941 after they were bombed (but that seems to have been a direct-ish replacement of the yeast they had been using since at least the 1920s). Does that sound like the attenuation of 1318, or that of a saison-family yeast that was historically common in northern England? Meanwhile one thing we know about 1318 is that it's one of the closest known relatives to 1098 - the archetypal Whitbread yeast.

It feels just a bit too much of a coincidence that Whitbread bought Boddies in 1989, and that in the run-up to Strangeways being closed they had problems recreating Boddies at the Whitbread factory in South Wales. Cask Boddies was contracted out to Hyde's, who had such problems with the Strangeways yeast that they produced 42% less than target in FY06 (per p2 of their annual report of 7 Feb 2007). That doesn't sound like the easy-going Whitbread yeast, which is popular precisely because it works under most conditions, it sounds like an "old" yeast that's evolved to work with one particular setup.

So despite the rumours that they changed the yeast, my suspicion is that they kept the old Tadcaster yeast, at least for cask, for as long as Strangeways was open. Given that a lot of the US yeast bank strains seem to originate among homebrewers in the 1990s, I wonder if Whitbread used their own yeast for some of the short-lived Boddies brand extensions at the height of its popularity in the 1990s - things like Boddies Export (which is the only survivor, labelled as Pub Ale in the US) which would explain how some people are convinced 1318 originated with Boddies, but genetically it's clearly a bog-standard Whitbread yeast.

Same goes for the "Fuller's" yeasts. Even the map acknowledges that its confidence may be misplaced "Fuller's Brewery yeast strain, from the Griffin Brewery in Chiswick, London, is Wyeast 1968 London ESB / WLP002 English Ale / Omega OYL-016 British Ale VIII. But none of these, especially the Wyeast, really capture the flavour of Fuller's - some strong fruity notes missing."

Or to put it another way - it's impossible that Fuller's "is" "1968/WLP002" as it tastes nothing like them. Anyone who has actually drunk a decent pint of Fuller's will know about the distinctive orangey character of their yeast. And no, I'm not just making that up - both the brewery and a former head brewer acknowledge it :
"Fuller’s yeast gives orange citrus, and toffee flavours to the beer (marmalade notes at discernible at higher A.B.V.)"
"One constant of all the ales is the secret ‘house yeast’. ‘It has a very orange-y, marmalade-y flavour,’ says George. ‘It’s easy to pick up in ESB...’"

So any yeast that lacks that character cannot be the Fuller's yeast. Now it's possible that 1968 and 002 originated in Chiswick but have evolved to be blander in the course of being passed around before they ended up at a yeast company, it's also possible that a tube got mislabelled along the way. But what is certain is that they are not the Fuller's yeast, and one should be sceptical of any source that claims they are.

Anyway, rant over, now to go and see if I can pick up some of this year's Vintage....
 
@Northern_Brewer Many thanks for the source regarding TT yeast. Sorry if I was overly stupid with my comparison, but at that point for me it was just statement vs statement and that UK map had been recommended by Ron previously.

Also I found that 1469 really gives me the same flavour as Landlord from cask has, so I always believed it to be quite an authentic yeast for that purpose. Where did you get the hint that Oldham brewery used John Smith? I would not judge TT as using a phenolic yeast at all, but then I also needed more than one pint from Harvey's to really notice the peppery aroma.

The yeast map features lots of stories that I could not find elsewhere, which also means I could not confirm anything, so there's that. But with the date of 2019 it seemed like the most recent collection of yeast origins. I now stand corrected and would very much like to ask you if you collected these anywhere? Or do you just remember the things you read throughout the years? Google generally does not seem to work when searching for these things.
 
By the way I just now used Verdant for the first time and the way it ferments is exactly the same as 1469. Long lasting barm head that stays on even if the beer beneath is already clear and a tendency to climb out of the fermenter.
1318, which I used only twice before, was nowhere like this.
 
By the way I just now used Verdant for the first time and the way it ferments is exactly the same as 1469. Long lasting barm head that stays on even if the beer beneath is already clear and a tendency to climb out of the fermenter.
1318, which I used only twice before, was nowhere like this.
Isn't Verdant a London Ale III mutation?
 
Ian was at Titanic for a long time, but set up Lymestone in 2008:
https://www.lymestonebrewery.net/about
Ah, thanks Northern. I'm really happy to hear this. What a big bull of a brewer. It was so eye-opening coming from Goose Island with 1000 HAACP points along a closed system and QC assays dotted all along the way, to his bringing a bucket of yeast across the yard, pitching it in the open fermenters, and letting them rock.

I'm saddened to see he lost his wife.
 
Also I found that 1469 really gives me the same flavour as Landlord from cask has, so I always believed it to be quite an authentic yeast for that purpose. Where did you get the hint that Oldham brewery used John Smith?
I must have a source for it, although the "supposedly" hints that I was underwhelmed by its reliability. Don't quote me, but I have a feeling it came from a Yorkshire Post article 10-20 years ago, which then disappeared behind a paywall - I guess they were keen to prove its tyke origins and that it had only been on loan to Lancashire! I remember doing a bit of digging after finding this mangled version from Michael Jackson in 1992, interviewing the legendary Allan Hey, which was clearly nonsense if interpreted literally :
Timothy Taylor's has been using the same yeast for at least 30 years. It is a hybrid of the John Smith's and former Oldham Brewery yeasts
The yeast map features lots of stories that I could not find elsewhere, which also means I could not confirm anything, so there's that. But with the date of 2019 it seemed like the most recent collection of yeast origins. I now stand corrected and would very much like to ask you if you collected these anywhere? Or do you just remember the things you read throughout the years? Google generally does not seem to work when searching for these things.
Yeah, there's some good stuff there but there's a lot of (wrong) conventional wisdom, and that thing of equating complex brewery yeasts to a particular homebrew strain just really puts me off.
My stuff is a mix of talking to people first hand and reading - I've spent rather too much time than is healthy, looking at eg old CAMRA newsletters! A lot of it is hearsay at best, it would be nice to have a more comprehensive genome analysis to trace ancestry.

By the way I just now used Verdant for the first time and the way it ferments is exactly the same as 1469. Long lasting barm head that stays on even if the beer beneath is already clear and a tendency to climb out of the fermenter.
1318, which I used only twice before, was nowhere like this.
Classic example of how easy it is to manipulate floccing and top-cropping, you have two yeasts that have been top-cropped and poor old 1318 has spent too long being harvested from the bottom of conicals.
Anyway, rant over, now to go and see if I can pick up some of this year's Vintage....
Done, this year it's got DRC and a Faram selection - Opus, Archer, and CF185. Recently Fuller's have been selling off series of Vintage, they had one going back to 2002 which unfortunately I missed.
 
@Northern_Brewer , it seems even if we obtain the brewery's own multi-strain yeast, then, unless we duplicate exactly the environmental conditions and processes, I suspect eventually like all things strains will adapt to our own environment - and taken to a model final result, we'll end up with a single strain anyway, is that correct (again, as only a model of adaptation and competitive advantage)?

I'm intrigued by the notion of establishing and maintaining a multi-strain "house" culture that moreover remains more or less stable in its population ecology over time. Not sure if it's doable on the home level, nor do I have the slightest clue how to begin.
 
the distinctive orangey character of their yeast
Not calling out NB here but related to this side topic, having been unable to hit it via the normal ingredients, I have started putting about 4 grams of sweet orange peel (for a 5 gallon batch) into the wort towards the end of the boil. I *think* I can taste it, but it's very subtle, which is perfect. Might be my imagination but I'm enjoying it.

I suppose it means I gave up somewhat, and cheated, but since we're in the English Ale recipe thread I thought I'd mention it.
 
this year it's got DRC and a Faram selection - Opus, Archer, and CF185. Recently Fuller's have been selling off series of Vintage, they had one going back to 2002 which unfortunately I missed.
I've picked up three- one for now, one for keeping, and one for my brother in law. CF185 is one of my favourite new British hops too.
 
I suppose it means I gave up somewhat, and cheated, but since we're in the English Ale recipe thread I thought I'd mention it.
The strongest orange aroma that I have so far experienced was from harvested S-04. Once it is used to being a liquid yeast, it becomes a fruity ester bomb. Very different from its dry form.
Fuller's (either from their bottles or Imperial Pub) is not as orangey to me. Rather a mix of some orange and some pale honey aroma.
I must have a source for it, although the "supposedly" hints that I was underwhelmed by its reliability.
Thanks for the honesty. It is such a difficulty to dig through all these supposed strains and having people invent stuff or misinterpreting statements makes things even worse. I know the story of Boddington's yeast that you quoted earlier and it is a prime example how people took the fact that it might have come from a Boddington bottle far too literally. Thankfully we have the written proof from 1941 in Ron's blog entry.
 
I was just looking at Ron's Bishop's Finger recipe that came out today. What yeast would you choose for this one? I haven't had the opportunity to try anything from Shep's, so I know nothing about their yeast character. From their website: "Mouth-filling fruit, prunes, plums and dried apricot spiked with palate-prickling pepper, cinnamon and a soft bitter blood-orange finish."
 
The strongest orange aroma that I have so far experienced was from harvested S-04. Once it is used to being a liquid yeast, it becomes a fruity ester bomb. Very different from its dry form.
Fuller's (either from their bottles or Imperial Pub) is not as orangey to me. Rather a mix of some orange and some pale honey aroma.

Thanks for the honesty. It is such a difficulty to dig through all these supposed strains and having people invent stuff or misinterpreting statements makes things even worse. I know the story of Boddington's yeast that you quoted earlier and it is a prime example how people took the fact that it might have come from a Boddington bottle far too literally. Thankfully we have the written proof from 1941 in Ron's blog entry.
That reminds me of one thing I wanted to try since ages, brewing a beer with a stepped up dry yeast starter beer. Starting a yeast starter with a common dry yeast, s04 sounds perfect for this. Only using so much of dry yeast that at least two steps are necessary to get enough cell count. That way the majority of the cells are actually not directly from dried form but from generations further down the line, never being under the drying stress themselves.

If this proves to be effective in increasing desirable yeast characteristics like yeast expression or flocculation, there will be many yeasts I'd have to revisit.
 
I was just looking at Ron's Bishop's Finger recipe that came out today. What yeast would you choose for this one?
https://baileysbeerblog.blogspot.com/2013/07/shepherd-neame-india-pale-ale-limited.htmlI can tell you for a fact that Sheps ditched their yeast and replaced it with Whitbread yeast, the yeast came from across the road from the Fremlins Brewery. Before this happened I'd been the Brewery Chemist at Sheps and had actually isolated the two strains that made up Sheps yeast. We banked it so that in an emergency it could be regenerated. Shortly after that and not long before I left, Sheps bought in a ex Whitbread Director and one of his first suggestions was that the yeast be ditched and replaced with Whitbread yeast. Despite lots of warnings how this could have a drastic impact on the beers Sheps went ahead. It did impact hugely on the beer and many Sheps drinkers noticed!

I've also seen it suggested that the St Austell yeast came from Sheps, as part of the close relationship between the two "peninsular" family brewers - Jonathan Neame was on the board of Snozzell for many years so it's plausible.
 
I really wish we could get a dry version of 1469, I love that yeast so much but am trying to move to dry when possible for simplicity sake.
It's not 1469, but if you don't mind buying 500g from Ireland then AEB's dry Yorkshire yeast, allegedly from Tetley, might be an option? AFAICT it's exclusive to Geterbrewed at the moment, and not available in retail packs, but these things are not set in stone....

https://www.geterbrewed.com/aeb-geb-yorkshire-regional-ale-yeast-500g/
 
I can tell you for a fact that Sheps ditched their yeast and replaced it with Whitbread yeast, the yeast came from across the road from the Fremlins Brewery. Before this happened I'd been the Brewery Chemist at Sheps and had actually isolated the two strains that made up Sheps yeast. We banked it so that in an emergency it could be regenerated. Shortly after that and not long before I left, Sheps bought in a ex Whitbread Director and one of his first suggestions was that the yeast be ditched and replaced with Whitbread yeast. Despite lots of warnings how this could have a drastic impact on the beers Sheps went ahead. It did impact hugely on the beer and many Sheps drinkers noticed!

I've also seen it suggested that the St Austell yeast came from Sheps, as part of the close relationship between the two "peninsular" family brewers - Jonathan Neame was on the board of Snozzell for many years so it's plausible.
Thanks for that link, you are a wealth of brewing information. I guess if they're using Whitbread yeast(s) that makes it a much simpler decision. Are Shep beers not good? I've seen several reviews similar to what was said in the link you sent.
 
I've bottled a strong ale last weekend and brewed a bitter at the same time. The yeast is Nottingham/s04 one pack each. The strong ale came out as expected and the bitter went on the yeast cake from the strong ale. Yesterday I dry hopped the bitter with Goldings and tomorrow or Saturday the beer will go into the bottle.

The strong ale features DRC, used it for the first time. The bitter has 10% Simpsons medium crystal and about 20% Grafschafter Heller Sirup which is the German equivalent to Lyle's golden syrup. I did a step mash for the bitter hoch kurz style and got way to good efficiency. I was shooting for about 4.1 %abv but what I will end up with will probably be 5%+.

Next time I know better, still getting used to the good crush of my new Corona mill.
 
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I tried to like DRC but the burnt sugar and sharp raisin flavour was just too much.
I much prefer the "normal" dark crystal from Simpson.
Got a bitter 1.038 bitter planned that will get 5% dark crystal and a EKG/Bramling X mix in late boil and dryhop additions.
 
I tried to like DRC but the burnt sugar and sharp raisin flavour was just too much.
I much prefer the "normal" dark crystal from Simpson.
Got a bitter 1.038 bitter planned that will get 5% dark crystal and a EKG/Bramling X mix in late boil and dryhop additions.
I can understand that. I tried the malt and the malt tasted strong and a bit acrid or bitter. I thought that this might fit well in a strong ale which is intended to be aged for at least half a year anyway, so I used it at about 5% of the grist. In a bitter, the bitter flavour part might be a problem. Not enough time for it to age out properly. But this assessment is only based on chewing on the malt itself, I have no idea how it behaves in the beer.
 
I can tell you for a fact that Sheps ditched their yeast and replaced it with Whitbread yeast, the yeast came from across the road from the Fremlins Brewery.
Finally a source that I have read before. Such a pity that they replaced a good twin strain with a boring Whitbread.
What do you think of the rumour that WY1026 is one of the two original Shep yeasts?
 
Thanks for that link, you are a wealth of brewing information. I guess if they're using Whitbread yeast(s) that makes it a much simpler decision.
Although if you're wanting the 1971 version you'd want the 2-strain yeast, Whitbread closed the Fremlin (ex-Rigden) brewery in Faversham in 1990 and I'd guess the switch to Whitbread happened around that time. The Brewlab Kent yeast doesn't feel that Whitbready but is only a single strain so who knows. (I've just noticed, TMM have a sneaky little link to the full Brewlab tech spec lurking in the bottom left of their Brewlab pages).
Are Shep beers not good? I've seen several reviews similar to what was said in the link you sent.
Their reputation is for being a bit dull, it doesn't help they've been widely sold in supermarkets in clear bottles so were presumably using tetrahop and all sorts, although they have now switched to brown glass. British breweries tend to be judged on their cask offering and Sheps seem to be in that group of trad brown beers which go dull really quickly in the absence of throughput - like within an hour or two. The Burton beers like Bass and Pedigree are the same so I don't know whether it's something to do with high mineral content. They can sparkle if they're really, really fresh though.
What do you think of the rumour that WY1026 is one of the two original Shep yeasts?
I have no useful opinion on it - presumably it comes from Kristen England linking it to Oranjeboom which is a bit WTF but Sheps did brew Orangjeboom under licence for a while. I think that would have been after the Whitbread switch though.
 
I've bottled a strong ale last weekend and brewed a bitter at the same time. The yeast is Nottingham/s04 one pack each. The strong ale came out as expected and the bitter went on the yeast cake from the strong ale. Yesterday I dry hopped the bitter with Goldings and tomorrow or Saturday the beer will go into the bottle.

The strong ale features DRC, used it for the first time. The bitter has 10% Simpsons medium crystal and about 20% Grafaschafter Heller Sirup which is the German equivalent to Lyle's golden syrup. I did a step mash for the bitter hoch kurz style and good way to good efficiency. I was shooting for about 4.1 %abv but what I will end up with will probably be 5%+.

Next time I know better, still getting used to the good crush of my new Corona mill.
Excellent. I've got some DRC arriving today - plan to use it in my RIS. What's your impression, from your strong ale?

Edit: missed your notes, sorry. Will be interesting to see after aging.
 
The Burton beers like Bass and Pedigree are the same so I don't know whether it's something to do with high mineral content.
I had Pedigree twice and found it incredibly bland compared to the descriptions of e.g. Martyn Cornell. Maybe that explains it.
I have no useful opinion on it - presumably it comes from Kristen England linking it to Oranjeboom which is a bit WTF but Sheps did brew Orangjeboom under licence for a while. I think that would have been after the Whitbread switch though.
Thanks, interesting to know.
 
I bottled an India Brown Ale clone a few days ago fermented with WLP005.
I just want to share my experience with that yeast.
With the first generation I did an English IPA and got about 75% attenuation but this time the beer went from 1.071 OG to 1.006.
That's 91% apparent attenuation, there was 2.8% dark brown sugar in there but that shouldn't have that much of an effect.
Don't think it's a measurement error because the other three beers I brewed turned out normal.
Also it tastes fine so I don't expect that it's infected.

I actually experenced this before the last time I used WLP005 about 5 years ago.
After a few generations getting attenuation in the 90's.
Last time I harvested it by top cropping from the fermenter.
This time around I just made an oversized started and used what was leftover to make a new starter the next brew day.
It looks like that caused the yeast to mutate even quicker.

Anyone else experience that with this yeast?
I was going to use the next gereration for a brown porter but I think I'll use something else now.

I guess each yeast is different in this regard but with London Ale 3 I'm on about the 5th or 6th generation and I'm still getting consistent attenuation.
 
I bottled an India Brown Ale clone a few days ago fermented with WLP005.
I just want to share my experience with that yeast.
With the first generation I did an English IPA and got about 75% attenuation but this time the beer went from 1.071 OG to 1.006.
That's 91% apparent attenuation, there was 2.8% dark brown sugar in there but that shouldn't have that much of an effect.
Don't think it's a measurement error because the other three beers I brewed turned out normal.
Also it tastes fine so I don't expect that it's infected.

I actually experenced this before the last time I used WLP005 about 5 years ago.
After a few generations getting attenuation in the 90's.
Last time I harvested it by top cropping from the fermenter.
This time around I just made an oversized started and used what was leftover to make a new starter the next brew day.
It looks like that caused the yeast to mutate even quicker.

Anyone else experience that with this yeast?
I was going to use the next gereration for a brown porter but I think I'll use something else now.

I guess each yeast is different in this regard but with London Ale 3 I'm on about the 5th or 6th generation and I'm still getting consistent attenuation.
I'm not familiar with that strain, but it would be nice to have an English yeast that attenuates that much. Does it produce some nice esters or is it fairly clean?
 
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