Efficiency 57%?? suggestions?

[NWBasementBrewer]

hello, ive made probialy 20 all grain beers in my illustrious brewing career. I cant seem to get my efficiency to do anything. I read several other posts to grind your grains more finer. So here is my recipe..

10lb - 2 row
.5lb - 80L
.5lb - Choclate
.25lb black patent
- 6lb of malt extract and 2 cups corn sugar

I got my water temps to start out at 170* when i add grains and mix in temps goes to 152-155* which is all good from what ive seen. Using 1.2qt- H2o to Lb of grain ratio. I stir every 20 min or so, and i get 3 qt of sparge water right around 170*. I end up with 5.5-6gal of wort and boil down.
So at the end of my boil I check my gravity and get 1.072og which temps at 70*.

I ran all my numbers and past batch info into the calculators and i get 57% efficency. I dont get it? do i need to look into adjusting my water PH or just deal with low efficiency and over compinsate by adding tons of extract and sugars?

Any advice would be helpful

 

[Coastarine]

Kaiser has one heck of an efficiency trouble shooting guide, stand by...

edit: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency

 

[TexLaw]

Three quarts is a very small sparge. You are leaving a lot of fermentables in your mash tun. I usually sparge with 3-4 gallons for what boils down to about 6 gallons (to get 5 in the keg)

If you only start with 5.5-6 gallons or wort, what do you boil down to?


TL

 

[chainsawbrewing]

what kind of mashing vessel are you using?

i used to use a 5gallon circular cooler, with a braided s.s. hose, and did a batch sparge, and got really good efficiency. i recently switched to a bigger, like 10 gallon-ish rectangular cooler, same s.s. hose batch sparge, and my efficiency went WAY down. i have to use around 1lb "extra" base malts now to get the same O.G. as i used to with 1lb less in the smaller cooler. i'm sure it's because my grain bed is more shallow, and more spread out, then it was in the smaller circular cooler.

edit* why are you putting corn sugar in your wort?

 

[hopsalot]

Dont grind your grains to much, the more flour like it becomes the more tannins there are from the pulverized husks. Tannins are astringent, and with a "good" bittering coming from hops, they are not desirable in your beer

 

[springer]

is it me our do the #'s not add up right ...

11.25 lbs of grain x 1.2 divided by 4 = 3.375 gallons of mash water.. So if you used 3 quarts sparge you wouldn't even have 5 gallons not even taking into account water loss in the mash from the grain absorption

OP did you mean 3 gallons sparge at 170*? And are you batch or fly sparging?

even so that is still not enough I end up with 7-71/2 preboil sometimes more

 

[pjj2ba]

Next time take a sample for a gravity check at the end of your mash, before adding any water. Plug the values for the grain in plus the amount of water used to mash in and see what you get. For example I did a brew last weekend with 8.8 lbs of grain in it. ProMash told me this should have a gravity of 1.088 (IIRC) in the 3 gal. of water I used to mash in. I checked it and that is what I got after the mash period before adding any water. If this value is spot on for you, then you know the problem is downstream somewhere (poor sparge, loses in kettle, etc.) If the value is low, then you have a mashing problem (crush and/or pH).

Good luck!

 

[FlyGuy]

Here is my short list of suggestions to consider:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/maximizing-efficiency-when-batch-sparging-77125/

 

[niquejim]

what kind of mashing vessel are you using?

i used to use a 5gallon circular cooler, with a braided s.s. hose, and did a batch sparge, and got really good efficiency. i recently switched to a bigger, like 10 gallon-ish rectangular cooler, same s.s. hose batch sparge, and my efficiency went WAY down. i have to use around 1lb "extra" base malts now to get the same O.G. as i used to with 1lb less in the smaller cooler. i'm sure it's because my grain bed is more shallow, and more spread out, then it was in the smaller circular cooler.

If you are batch sparging grain bed depth makes no difference. I made a small lager (lawnmower beer) yesterday with 6.75lbs in a 48qt cooler. Grain bed was 2' max and I got 85%

Back to OP

- 6lb of malt extract and 2 cups corn sugar
6 lbs are you serious

Now really back on topic

If your ph is really off it can effect your mash and your efficiency. If you don't want to build your own water, start by mixing some tap with some bottled R/O water and keep good notes so you can compare the differences. I use 75% RO water on a pilsner and 40-50% on Pale Ales and Stouts. It just takes some practice and tweaking to find what works good for you

What the culprit usually is though is the crush, so "Crush til you're scared" and unless you're destroying the husks you'll be fine

 

[chainsawbrewing]

i don't want to get too terribly off topic, but i don't quite understand how this is possible. a larger vessle will not hold heat quite like a smaller vessel, and the more head space between the grain/water and the lid decreases heat holding efficiency, and both of those things will directly impact the efficiency of the mash right?

it's the only thing i can come up with in my case, becasue i've seriously made my "haus" brew dunkel over 30 times, and haven't changed the recipe for a long time, and the first 25 time i made it in my old mash tun, versus the new mash tun was a major efficiency difference, the first batch in the new tun was a difference in .010 points in starting gravity! and i've since made several other untweaked batches of other styles of beers that were "rock solid" in my smaller tun, and were also seriously low in starting gravity compared to the same exact techniques, and volumes in the old tun.

 

[NWBasementBrewer]

is it me our do the #'s not add up right ...

11.25 lbs of grain x 1.2 divided by 4 = 3.375 gallons of mash water.. So if you used 3 quarts sparge you wouldn't even have 5 gallons not even taking into account water loss in the mash from the grain absorption

OP did you mean 3 gallons sparge at 170*? And are you batch or fly sparging?

even so that is still not enough I end up with 7-71/2 preboil sometimes more

Sorry typo, it was 3 gal of water. this batch was fly sparging i belive is the term.

I use a 7 gallon water cooler i got from hardware store. Did a coiled copper pick up. Kinda like other perople have done in there DIY projects.
So i use a mashtun like described and i use a fermentation bucket cleaned out to put my sparge water in and i have a rotating sparge arm that sprays the grains. Then i drain into my kettle to boil.. the other thing i do is i stop when the wort runs clear. but that is usally right around the end of my sparge.

I geuss next time ill make the exact same beer cause it is tastey and try doing batch sparging method. Then compare my findings.:cross:

thanks for all the imput those wow haha

 

[Nostrildamus]

Well my friend, as far as I've read I would suggest not batch sparging and instead refining your present technique and finding out where the inefficiency lies as it may manifest itself in batch sparging as well.

You've only provided a short list of your procedure but I'll make a few suggestions for you to consider on top of the great links and suggestions which have been posted in this thread. I know some of these are repeated but you'd do well to consider the following:

1.) Crush, crush , crush! This, in my opinion is the largest single contributing factor to getting optimal efficiency. Make sure it is fine enough. So long as you aren't totally obliterating the husks and aren't producing massive amounts of flour crush the hell out of the grain.

2.)Make sure your thermometers are calibrated. I own several and the range varies up to 15 degrees F!!! A mash temp that is 170F means an ineffective mash.

3.) Do an iodine test. Iodine is cheap and widely available. Don't settle for guessing that conversion is done. KNOW IT IS DONE! Take grain and crush it between your fingers and test it as well. If there are large areas that turn black you're leaving tonnes of sugar in your "spent" grains.

4.)Sparge and Lauter slow. Did I say slow... I meant SUPER SLOW! 1 Quart a minute is the max speed at which I lauter. Slower is better as it rinses maltose from grain more effectively and allows more time to drink beer.

5.)Take a lautering gravity when you're near your final volume (not preboil volume).Clear wort from the MLT is no indication of how much sugar is still available. Sparging and lautering past 1.010 puts you in danger of tannin extraction but stopping when you are still at 1.015 is wasted maltose!!

6.)Take the preboil gravity. Give yourself a chance to correct the inefficiency by knowing if you need to keep sparging or are short on sugar.

7.)Boil only in a calibrated kettle. Know your volumes are correct so that the efficiency calc is a real indication of what is happening.

8.)Reinspect your manifold/pickup and consider channeling problems. I list this last because with a rotating sparge arm I would assume channeling to be a little less likely. If your pick up is too centralized and doesn't cover enough of the bottom of your MLT then you may be placing too much suction in one area which always results in localized extraction.


There is no way you should need the additional extract and corn sugar in your recipe. NO WAY! That is insane and surprising and.... I'm at a loss for words here. Even when I have been tragically low because I've mashed a little off or lautered too quick I still came out with an acceptable gravity without having to add extract. This is not normal so don't accept it was such fight it till the bitter end and never give up. Maybe try some mini batches if you are hesitant to commit to another full batch with poor efficiency.

Good luck. Keep brewing. Keep your brew chin up. You'll nail it eventually.