Dumped 3 batches in a row ☹ Can’t figure out what’s wrong.

[Panderson1]

This is driving me insane. I have never dumped a beer before this month. Probably over a hundred brew days in my life. Dumped 3 batches in the past month – over 30 gallons. All the same recipe. At 1.068

I haven’t changed anything in my normal brewing process other than the yeast. Hornindal Kveik yeast.

My starters looked and did well (I didn’t taste the starter wort). The fermentation looked great. Took off fast each brew. Temp was controlled at 80f (kveik likes warm). One batch stopped at 1.031 for some reason. This past batch made it to 1.015. The other 1.010. All of them has an over the top Astringent/metallic taste. Hard to describe but it’s undrinkable. I don’t ever remember having an off flavor since my beginning brew days. I don’t remember having this terrible taste ever.

Note: the batch that made it to 1.010 was actually harvested from the batch prior (the 1.031 batch). Crop topped. Maybe that had something to do with it stopping at 1.031? Either way they both had the same bad off flavor. The 3rd batch was a brand new package. Shipped with ice.

For the 1st and 3rd batch, I pitched 2 liquid packs into my starters at 2000ml – 1.040. This is for a 11 gallon batch (1.068) IPA. Each time.

My very first attempt with this beer/hornindal recipe came out perfect (2 months ago). Probably my best beer ever. I have been trying to duplicate that brew day exactly but then next 3 all got dumped.

I can’t figure out what is going wrong. All the yeast came from label peelers on 3 separate shipments. 1st

Another note is I have done 2 other brews in between those ^. They were 5 gallon batches using different yeast and they are great. No off flavors.

I use a Brewzilla 65L and a fermzilla for the 11 gal batches. The 5 gallon batches were done in buckets and not fermzilla. I’m pretty anal about cleaning and sanitization. So the fermzilla gets soaked in PBW or Oxyclean and scrubbed/wash out good. I also soak in StarSan before transferring making sure the Starsan gets dumped as well. EDIT: The 1.010 batch was actually done in a 13gal stainless conical.... same resulting flavor though

I have gone over my list and can’t figure out what it could be. I emailed Omega Yeast and they replied fast about that yeast. I asked if anyone else had concerns about that strain recently. No

Again my 1st time using this strain was really great. Fast and clean. Amazing beer.

Any thoughts? I actually made a thread about this problem a few weeks ago BUT I tried again with brand new yeast (new shipment) and stilling getting same bad flavor/results… Bad yeast? Thoughts on this failed brew?

 

[marc1]

Your starter was 2 liquid yeast packs in 20ml?

 

[Panderson1]

Your starter was 2 liquid yeast packs in 20ml?

Lol no. Sorry i meant 2000ml. I will edit

 

[Henbrew]

What water are you using?

 

[Panderson1]

What water are you using?

RO water with salts adjusted via beersmith (Hoppy pale ale). Other brews taste great using the same water

 

[TheMadKing]

You seem to be very focused on your yeast, but a metallic/astringent off flavor can come from a couple different things and none of them is yeast. I suspect that there's nothing wrong with the yeast, and there's something in your cleaning/sanitizing/water source/process amiss.

I find it very interesting that you seem to have both gravity issues and this off flavor at the same time, that tells me there might be a temperature off in your process and you are mashing and/or sparging with water that is much hotter than you think. Have you checked the calibration of your thermometers? You can pull metallic/astringent flavors from grain with a combination of hot sparge water and high pH

Another place to look is your star san. Are you making it fresh in your fermenter? Or reusing the same star san over and over? If it's the latter have you smelled, or (dipped your finger into) and tasted your DILUTED star san to see if it's metallic? I have accidentally soaked a hose clamp in my star san and it gave it a very strong metallic smell/flavor and it ruined a batch of beer before I noticed it.

Finally, has your water changed? Does it taste the same as it always has?

 

[Beerstein]

Another place to look is your star san. Are you making it fresh in your fermenter? Or reusing the same star san over and over? If it's the latter have you smelled, or (dipped your finger into) and tasted your DILUTED star san to see if it's metallic? I have accidentally soaked a hose clamp in my star san and it gave it a very strong metallic smell/flavor and it ruined a batch of beer before I noticed it.

Finally, has your water changed? Does it taste the same as it always has?

This. Happened to me before. Starsan can take all kinds of plating off.

 

[Henbrew]

RO water with salts adjusted via beersmith (Hoppy pale ale). Other brews taste great using the same water

Only time I had a very prominent metallic taste was early on in my brewing when I first purchased a copper wort chiller. I cleaned it with soap when I first got it but it imparted a bad metallic taste. Once it oxidized it was perfectly fine. I had a mild metallic taste from my well water early on which had iron in the water. I now use RO water too.

Here's advice from John Palmer:
Metallic flavors are usually caused by unprotected metals dissolving into the wort but can also be caused by the hydrolysis of lipids in poorly stored malts. Iron and aluminum can cause metallic flavors leaching into the wort during the boil. The small amount could be considered to be nutritional if it weren't for the bad taste. Nicks and cracks ceramic coated steel pots are a common cause as are high iron levels in well water. Stainless steel pots will not contribute any metallic flavors. Aluminum pots usually won't cause metallic flavors unless the brewing water is alkaline with a pH level greater than 9. Shiny new aluminum pots will sometimes turn black when boiling water due to chlorine and carbonates in the water.

 

[Panderson1]

You seem to be very focused on your yeast, but a metallic/astringent off flavor can come from a couple different things and none of them is yeast. I suspect that there's nothing wrong with the yeast, and there's something in your cleaning/sanitizing/water source/process amiss.

I find it very interesting that you seem to have both gravity issues and this off flavor at the same time, that tells me there might be a temperature off in your process and you are mashing and/or sparging with water that is much hotter than you think. Have you checked the calibration of your thermometers? You can pull metallic/astringent flavors from grain with a combination of hot sparge water and high pH

Another place to look is your star san. Are you making it fresh in your fermenter? Or reusing the same star san over and over? If it's the latter have you smelled, or (dipped your finger in) and tasted your star san to see if it's metallic? I have accidentally soaked a hose clamp in my star san and it gave it a very strong metallic smell/flavor and it ruined a batch of beer before I noticed it.

Finally, has your water changed? Does it taste the same as it always has?

Thanks.

The temperature prob in the brewzilla I never trust but I have a system down using a separate Thermapen that I trust. I have 2 of them and just checked the temps with the same water and they both are reading the same. I will boil some water and see what happens tho.

I fly sparge around 170. And I have brewed other batches recently with the same process with no issues. I tasted the wort at different times during my last 5 gallon batch and nothing seemed off - tasted great. I can't remember tasting it during the batches in question. I normally do though although i will say i forget a lot of times. I do check gravity though out with a refractometer

I check my mash PH and always around 5.3 - 5.5 lately

Always making fresh starsan

I have an RO system and use that with salt adjutments. It taste great out of the system. I have brewed other batches and no issues.

This is all so confusing

 

[Panderson1]

Only time I had a very prominent metallic taste was early on in my brewing when I first purchased a copper wort chiller. I cleaned it with soap when I first got it but it imparted a bad metallic taste. Once it oxidized it was perfectly fine. I had a mild metallic taste from my well water early on which had iron in the water. I now use RO water too.

Here's advice from John Palmer:
Metallic flavors are usually caused by unprotected metals dissolving into the wort but can also be caused by the hydrolysis of lipids in poorly stored malts. Iron and aluminum can cause metallic flavors leaching into the wort during the boil. The small amount could be considered to be nutritional if it weren't for the bad taste. Nicks and cracks ceramic coated steel pots are a common cause as are high iron levels in well water. Stainless steel pots will not contribute any metallic flavors. Aluminum pots usually won't cause metallic flavors unless the brewing water is alkaline with a pH level greater than 9. Shiny new aluminum pots will sometimes turn black when boiling water due to chlorine and carbonates in the water.

Thanks. My wort chiller is Stainless. The Brewzilla is stainless. Firmzilla is plastic

 

[TheMadKing]

Thanks.

The temperature prob in the brewzilla I never trust but I have a system down using a separate Thermapen that I trust. I have 2 of them and just checked the temps with the same water and they both are reading the same. I will boil some water and see what happens tho.

I fly sparge around 170. And I have brewed other batches recently with the same process with no issues. I tasted the wort at different

I check my mash PH and always around 5.3 - 5.5

Always making fresh starsan

I have an RO system and use that with salt adjutments. It taste great out of the system. I have brewed other batches and no issues.

This is all so confusing

Hmmm

Are you adding acid to your sparge water? At 170 if your sparge water is not acidic enough, you could be getting tannins that could cause the flavor you're describing. The reason it's happening on the large batches and not the small batches could simply be a volume to surface area issue, i.e. you're sparging double the volume of grain with the same surface area and as a result you end up with a large pH gradiant through your grain bed and extract tannins from the top layers of grain (Very much speculating here!)

Another question, have you brewed a batch fermented in the 65L Fermzilla that tasted good since this problem started?

 

[shoengine]

Do you ever taste your gravity samples?

 

[Panderson1]

Hmmm

Are you adding acid to your sparge water? At 170 if your sparge water is not acidic enough, you could be getting tannins that could cause the flavor you're describing. The reason it's happening on the large batches and not the small batches could simply be a volume to surface area issue, i.e. you're sparging double the volume of grain with the same surface area and as a result you end up with a large pH gradiant through your grain bed and extract tannins from the top layers of grain (Very much speculating here!)

Another question, have you brewed a batch fermented in the 65L Fermzilla that tasted good since this problem started?

No. I haven't fermented in the Firmzilla with a successful batch since this issue. The last 2 done in the Fermzilla were the dumped brews. 1 batch was brewed in a separate 13 gal conical and the same flavor resulted.

Prior to these bad batches I had around 12 successful batches done in the firmzilla.

I will look into the sparging a bit more. But It's the same process i've always used and never had this problem before.

Nevre added any acid.

Thanks for responding

 

[Panderson1]

Do you ever taste your gravity samples?

I can say this I def need to do this more often. I do here and there. Normally taste the grains after mashing/sparging. The last brew I made sure to taste the samples and tasted great. I need to do this more often though.

 

[Panderson1]

Makes me think something is going on with the sparging. Even though It's the same process I've always used with this brewzilla system. Probably close to 20 brewdays in the Brewzilla with good results

 

[Henbrew]

Thanks. My wort chiller is Stainless. The Brewzilla is stainless. Firmzilla is plastic

I have the same setup so that's why I don't think the equipment itself is an issue. Oxiclean/PBW can cause astringent off flavors, but as long as you're rinsing well, including flushing out the pump on the brewzilla, that shouldn't be an issue. Is your brewzilla nice and shiny inside? I like to occasionally clean mine with Barkeepers Friend to really keep it looking new. Might be good to take samples of the wort before pitching yeast and taste throughout the fermentation. You can even sample during/right after the mash.

 

[Beerstein]

Did you soak the rubber gasket at the bottom with oxyclean or PBW? I just got a replacement and noticed it left rubber on the lid when I pushed it through.

 

[Panderson1]

Did you soak the rubber gasket at the bottom with oxyclean or PBW? I just got a replacement and noticed it left rubber on the lid when I pushed it through.

I soaked everything. But I also did batch #2 in a separate stainless conical with same resulting flavor.

 

[Panderson1]

I have the same setup so that's why I don't think the equipment itself is an issue. Oxiclean/PBW can cause astringent off flavors, but as long as you're rinsing well, including flushing out the pump on the brewzilla, that shouldn't be an issue. Is your brewzilla nice and shiny inside? I like to occasionally clean mine with Barkeepers Friend to really keep it looking new. Might be good to take samples of the wort before pitching yeast and taste throughout the fermentation. You can even sample during/right after the mash.

Yea I like cleaning it up. I normally clean it with half gallon PBW mix and run the pump and let it soak too and scrub. Then I dump and do the same with Hot water. Then Starsan... And then one final rinse of hot water. I heard StarSan can help rinse the PBW residue - that could be a myth tho. Hot water always goes last though (for the brewzilla)

 

[TheMadKing]

So one thing that I am struggling with (and I'm sure others) is that you seem to be all over the place with your troubleshooting statements:

Nothing has changed but the yeast
I have fermented 120 batches all the same with no issue before
I have fermented 150 batches successfully (the other thread)
I have fermented 12 successful batches in the fermzilla
1 of the 3 bad batches was fermented in a separate stainless fermenter
two 5-gallon batches were fermented in buckets and they were fine
You are super anal about cleaning and sanitizing
You rinse your star san (it's a no rinse sanitizer)

so when you say "nothing has changed" and then it comes out that a whole bunch of little things have changed, it makes it really hard to help identify the issue. Troubleshooting is a systematic process of looking at ALL possible variables, and then eliminating those that don't apply one by one, so it's really important to keep that in mind when you're describing your issue.

I'm not trying to be a jerk at all, just trying to help with something I can see.

 

[Panderson1]

So one thing that I am struggling with (and I'm sure others) is that you seem to be all over the place with your troubleshooting statements:

Nothing has changed but the yeast
I have fermented 120 batches all the same with no issue before
I have fermented 150 batches successfully (the other thread)
I have fermented 12 successful batches in the fermzilla
1 of the 3 bad batches was fermented in a separate stainless fermenter
two 5-gallon batches were fermented in buckets and they were fine
You are super anal about cleaning and sanitizing
You rinse your star san (it's a no rinse sanitizer)

so when you say "nothing has changed" and then it comes out that a whole bunch of little things have changed, it makes it really hard to help identify the issue. Troubleshooting is a systematic process of looking at ALL possible variables, and then eliminating those that don't apply one by one, so it's really important to keep that in mind when you're describing your issue.

I'm not trying to be a jerk at all, just trying to help with something I can see.

I'll give you the bold. I went back and re-estimated my brewing history and was much less. I can't exactly remember how many since 2013. Definitely over a 100. I guestamate 120. Maybe i should have used the "guestamate"

Also, i made a typo in the "I have fermented 12 successful batches in the fermzilla " comment above. I just edited


I don't see the problem with the others.

"1 of the 3 bad batches was fermented in a separate stainless fermenter" This should tell you it's not a specific fermenter problem.

"two 5-gallon batches were fermented in buckets and they were fine" This should somewhat imply that my brewing process is good.

I rinse off the star san in the brewzilla. I know it's no rinse but call me anal but It's rather do a final rinse with water before I start heating up water/brewing with it. I never rinse it in a fermenter or keg. Never said that.

I don't see your point. Other than using a separate fermenter, everything else in the brewing process was the same -- talking about the dumped beer in the thread title here. I threw in the 5 gallon batches for added info. Sorry it's confusing there's a lot i'm trying to get across and figure out.

 

[Miraculix]

Easy way: make a full volume, no sparge beer without a starter, single infusion, just the yeast (one pack of kveik can go a loooooooong way). Alternatively, use two or three packs of us05.

If this beer has the of flavour, use the other fermenter with the same recipe.

 

[Beerstein]

Easy way: make a full volume, no sparge beer without a starter, single infusion, just the yeast (one pack of kveik can go a loooooooong way). Alternatively, use two or three packs of us05.

If this beer has the of flavour, use the other fermenter with the same recipe.

This is good guidance. I might also skip making a yeast starter and go straight to sprinkle in dry yeast to eliminate one or more variables.

 

[Miraculix]

This is good guidance. I might also skip making a yeast starter and go straight to sprinkle in dry yeast to eliminate one or more variables.

Well, I said that as well But good that you agree!

 

[TheMadKing]

I don't see the problem with the others.

"1 of the 3 bad batches was fermented in a separate stainless fermenter" This should tell you it's not a specific fermenter problem.

Initially you said all 3 batches were identical and you hadn't changed anything in your process - so it calls in to question what else you might have glossed over that could be relevant

"two 5-gallon batches were fermented in buckets and they were fine" This should somewhat imply that my brewing process is good.

I think there are too many different variables here to say that for sure, different recipe, different sized batches, different fermenters, different yeast, different water volumes - so it could be any of those things.

I rinse off the star san in the brewzilla. I know it's no rinse but call me anal but It's rather do a final rinse with water before I start heating up water/brewing with it. I never rinse it in a fermenter or keg. Never said that.

Are you rinsing with RO water or tap water? You could be leaving behind minerally residue from your rinse water that is affecting the taste

My only point was that the smallest of details can matter so it's very important to be specific, accurate, and methodical when you're asking for help online. We can't know anything except what you tell us. I'm really not trying to be rude, sorry if I came across that way.

 

[Panderson1]

Easy way: make a full volume, no sparge beer without a starter, single infusion, just the yeast (one pack of kveik can go a loooooooong way). Alternatively, use two or three packs of us05.

If this beer has the of flavour, use the other fermenter with the same recipe.

Damn. That's a pretty expensive experiment. But I might have to give it a go. Just wondering... what if they both fail lol. Then what would you think the problem is?

Also, I have made this beer successfully prior to these 3 brews. I also brewed a very similar IPA using us05. All in the same fermenter and came out good.

 

[Beerstein]

You could split the batch in two. Half into each fermentor.

 

[Panderson1]

Are you rinsing with RO water or tap water? You could be leaving behind minerally residue from your rinse water that is affecting the taste

Actually no. I rinse with hot sink water. But this has always been the case for years and have never tasted anything at all. It is usually 5 days evaporated by the time i brew. But i guess the residue from city water is still there. I have never tasted anything like this current problem before though

 

[Dland]

I feel your pain, I had a string of three dumpers a couple of years ago. I would describe the taste of those acidic, almost vomit like though, but maybe metallic too. Had had many successful prior batches as well. I also considered my cleaning and sanitation practices to be good.

What I ended up doing to finally solve the problem was a deep cleaning, full disassembly and sanitation of entire system, including MT and BK. Baked my plate chiller in oven and did multiple PBW/starsan cycles. Also gave everything a blast through w Idophor iodine sanitizer. When dissembling some of the valves, I did find some suspect slime under a couple of the seals. Not sure what the infection was, but the deep cleaning and sanitation did solve the problem.

I will note that only time I brewed with Hornadal Kveik I got a brew w distinct and unpalatable plastic overtones, my only other full batch dumper.

 

[Panderson1]

I feel your pain, I had a string of three dumpers a couple of years ago. I would describe the taste of those acidic, almost vomit like though, but maybe metallic too. Had had many successful prior batches as well. I also considered my cleaning and sanitation practices to be good.

What I ended up doing to finally solve the problem was a deep cleaning, full disassembly and sanitation of entire system, including MT and BK. Baked my plate chiller in oven and did multiple PBW/starsan cycles. Also gave everything a blast through w Idophor iodine sanitizer. When dissembling some of the valves, I did find some suspect slime under a couple of the seals. Not sure what the infection was, but the deep cleaning and sanitation did solve the problem.

I will note that only time I brewed with Hornadal Kveik I got a brew w distinct and unpalatable plastic overtones, my only other full batch dumper.

Interesting. Thanks. The vomit might be a good description. "watered down vomit".

It is interesting to think about infection. 2 different fermenters at the same time. Maybe the hose I'm using to transfer is bad? Although fairly new. And I soak it in PBW and wash. Or something with the brewzilla pump? That would make more sense to me. I do whirlpool with the pump at 180ish for 15 mins you would think that will kill anything inside. But maybe i need to just open it up.

I don't have a plate.

I also taste these beers before they are kegged as well. So it's not happening in the keg

 

[Panderson1]

One thing I just thought of. I have a Munich Helles that is in the conical going through a diacetyl rest. It will be interesting to taste it and see if it has the off flavor.

 

[Protos]

Never dumped a beer before this month ... Hornindal Kveik yeast.

Same here. Exactly the same. OYL-091 Hornindal. Not infected. Just shitty. Dumped 3 batches for the 1st time in my 180-ish "carreer".
IDK what's the reason of the shittiness. Brewing and yeast propagation regimens were different in all three batches. Sanitation was same as with successfull non-Kveik brews brewed right before and after.
All three dumped.
My conclusion is, it's just not a good year for Hornindal.

 

[Panderson1]

Same here. Exactly the same. OYL-091 Hornindal. Not infected. Just shitty. Dumped 3 batches for the 1st time in my 180-ish "carreer".
IDK what's the reason of the shittiness. Brewing and yeast propagation regimens were different in all three batches. Sanitation was same as with successfull non-Kveik brews brewed right before and after.
All three dumped.
My conclusion is, it's just not a good year for Hornindal.

Wow. Seriously? I had a vision that more and more homebrewers were going to start coming out with similar complaints/issues. This really will be interesting. I swear my gut just tells me something is wrong with this yeast. Obviously I could be wrong.

What would happen if their packaging got mixed up with a normal ale strain (or lager). And people are unknowingly fermenting it in the 90s (on purpose)? Highly unlikely lol. But thinking out loud.

Thanks for your reply. Good to hear. Unfortunate

 

[Protos]

The only decent batch I brewed with OYL-091 was the first one, inoculated from the manufacturer package. Not great but decent, comparable to Lalbrew's dry Voss, just a bit mellower. Then I reused the yeast in three different ways: fresh yeast cake from the decent batch, frozen vial with glycerol (no viability problems after 4 months in freezer) and top-cropped yeast crust dried the traditional way (good viability and no signs of infection as well). All three beers turned out very similar and shitty: severely underattenuated (66 to 69%), very dull and almost flavourless. I won't buy Hornindal anymore, in my experience its subsequent generations loose the character right after the first batch. And even the first "decent" batch was nothing to write home about, to begin with. Dried Voss gives very similar and more predictable results with way less hassle.

 

[Panderson1]

The only decent batch I brewed with OYL-091 was the first one, inoculated from the manufacturer package. Not great but decent, comparable to Lalbrew's dry Voss, just a bit mellower. Then I reused the yeast in three different ways: fresh yeast cake from the decent batch, frozen vial with glycerol (no viability problems after 4 months in freezer) and top-cropped yeast crust dried the traditional way (good viability and no signs of infection as well). All three beers turned out very similar and shitty: severely underattenuated (66 to 69%), very dull and almost flavourless. I won't buy Hornindal anymore, in my experience its subsequent generations loose the character right after the first batch. And even the first "decent" batch was nothing to write home about, to begin with. Dried Voss gives very similar and more predictable results with way less hassle.

Was there an off flavor? Or just didn't do their jobs properly?

 

[Panderson1]

For what it's worth, i just sampled the Munich Helles (11 gal batch) out of the conical and it tastes good. No off flavors at all. This brew was done after batch # 2 that got dumped and a week before batch #3 that got dumped. #2 was done in the same conical

 

[TheMadKing]

For what it's worth, i just sampled the Munich Helles (11 gal batch) out of the conical and it tastes good. No off flavors at all. This brew was done after batch # 2 that got dumped and a week before batch #3 that got dumped. #2 was done in the same conical

that definitely eliminates the fermenters as a source of the issue, as well as persistent infection.

If your gut is telling you it's the yeast, then just do a riff on what Miraculix said and brew the exact same beer (5 gallons or less) with a different yeast and see if it comes out without the flavor

Maybe there really is an issue with Hornendal from what others here have added.

 

[bkboiler]

Take apart your ball valves.

That's all I got.

 

[Protos]

Was there an off flavor? Or just didn't do their jobs properly?

There was a slight metallic twang to all my OYL-091 beers. Not too pleasant but not significant enough to be called the main issue. Underattenuation and dullness were bigger problems in my case.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Last summer I brewed an IPA recipe I've made before, but I used OYL-091.

Horrendous. Undrinkable.

Very astringent and overall really weird character. I can't confirm it was the yeast, I had some process changes around that time too, but boy was that beer was a dumper.

To add some balance though, a local nano uses it to brew their berliners which are very, very good. It wouldn't be a commercial vs hb pitch thing either, as he is buying hb packs.