Dulling down too sweet of mead

[Wanne]

Yes...I'm a newbie with all of this. I started out making 3 different one gallon batches and did a 3 gallon cherry melomel. Problem I have is my gallon batches are sickeningly sweet. Used 3lbs of honey for each one. One is a dark cherry (which is the best of the batches). One is blueberry (really sweet). And the last one is a cyser that I put Cara Cara Oranges in (REALLY REALLY sweet). If you're not familiar with Cara oranges they're really juicy and pretty sweet. It's looks like orange HiC honestly lol. I can tell you one of my mistakes was using apple juice instead of water...rookie mistake I know.

I've transferred them all after 30 days. The ABV is sitting between 11-14% between them. The blueberry and cyser were so sweet I re- pitched some D47 with zero reaction (and no I didn't add the potassium sorbate or meta yet).

I've read a few things about some people adding vodka to them. Adding some water. I've even read some adding a dry white wine (but I don't want to introduce any additives in the wine...if that's a thing). So I'm not quite sure where to do from here?

Let them set another month or so in the carboys?
Degas and rack them?
Will they mellow out with age?

I'm finding the ciders sooooooo much easier and quicker...and so far pretty tasty. But I'd really like to get this mead thing down. My 3 gallon batch of cherry melomel will be fine...but I don't want to waste these first 3 batches I did (altho I think I'll just chalk it up to learning).

 

[Blacksmith1]

You can make a basic mead, ferment it dry and blend it to your sweet meads.

 

[NeverDie]

The OP is a good question.

However, something doesn't seem to add up here. Was the OG measured? If not, we can try to back out what it would have been: if the OP used 3 pounds of honey each, resulting in a volume of 1 gallon, then that implies about 3/4 gallons of water of water and an OG of 1.11. If the OG was 1.11, then then alcohol potential was 14.3 ABV. However, if one of the ABV's was 14% (as seems to be implied by the OP), then how can it be sickeningly sweet? Wouldn't nearly all the sugar have been used up in that case? I'm not denying that it is sickeningly sweet, but just that something doesn't seem to add up here.

What is the current SG?

 

[Maylar]

Did you measure specific gravities before pitching? What are they now? What yeast did you use?

 

[Wanne]

yeah...like I said...newbie right down to reading my hydrometer. And no...didn't measure OG before pitching like a bonehead! Also...I used 100% apple juice instead of water. With that cyser...3lbs of honey, apple juice and 2 cara cara oranges that are REALLY sweet as well. And I even re-pitched the yeast. I'm taking Blacksmith's advice and making a basic mead AND documented the OG on this one lol.

 

[Wanne]

no...I didn't like a big dummy. Used K1V-1116.

 

[Blacksmith1]

That likes to ferment dry. It should not have been sickly sweet, a little sweet maybe but..... Are you sure about how mich honey went in?

 

[NeverDie]

no...I didn't like a big dummy. Used K1V-1116.

What about the current SG? Not too late to measure that.

 

[Wanne]

That likes to ferment dry. It should not have been sickly sweet, a little sweet maybe but..... Are you sure about how mich honey went in?

Yessir. I had two 5lb jars of Sams Club honey that I divided into thirds. I really think it had to be the apple juice instead of water in all of them.

Dark Cherry: Somewhat sweet.
Blueberry: very sweet. (3lbs blueberries juiced)
Cyser: sickeningly sweet. Those Cara Cara oranges were really sweet too (2 of them sliced up).

 

[Wanne]

What about the current SG? Not too late to measure that.

1.050 on the cyser

 

[Homergah]

What is the og of apple juice? Has anyone figured that variable in for his real og? I've never made mead, just lurked around a lot, so my thoughts can be discounted as much as you think necessary. It seems to me like OP had a lot of sugar to ferment out. Between the honey, aj, and other fruit added.

 

[NeverDie]

Seems like it's either blacksmith1's advice then or else dilute it and restart it, maybe with a restart yeast (e.g. Red Star Premier Blanc is popular for that purpose) and let it ferment dry. Not sure which approach would be better or worse though. I think if it were me I'd try dilute/restart, if only because you're already part-way done and maybe (?) it would be faster overall than waiting on a fresh dry batch to mix with it.

Anyone else have any other suggestions?

 

[biochemedic]

You can make a basic mead, ferment it dry and blend it to your sweet meads.

I agree with this, make a gallon with a low OG, maybe only 2 lbs of honey per gallon, let it ferment out completely dry. You need to be sure of the current gravity of what you're trying to dilute out. There are calculators for "wort diluted with wort" (or must/mead in this case), you can play around with the volumes to put you where you want to be for an effective FG....

 

[Wanne]

What is the og of apple juice? Has anyone figured that variable in for his real og? I've never made mead, just lurked around a lot, so my thoughts can be discounted as much as you think necessary. It seems to me like OP had a lot of sugar to ferment out. Between the honey, aj, and other fruit added.

Good question. I'll check that out next batch of cider I make. Also...with that much sugar probably would have been wise to hydrate a full packet of yeast. I only used half...which might be part of the problem. That's another question...that I'm sure just comes with experience doing this...when is it ok to use a whole packet of yeast?...or just use half? I might give that restart yeast a shot with the blueberry one. Cyser I think is shot.

 

[madscientist451]

I've made lots of mead that didn't suit my taste and I always bottle it in 1.5L bottles or 1/2 gallon jugs and then wait until I have something to blend it with.
Mead gets better with age, so there's nothing wrong with hanging on to it while you make something else to go with it.
Perhaps make a plain hard cider and blend the sweet mead with it?

 

[NeverDie]

Good question. I'll check that out next batch of cider I make. Also...with that much sugar probably would have been wise to hydrate a full packet of yeast. I only used half...which might be part of the problem. That's another question...that I'm sure just comes with experience doing this...when is it ok to use a whole packet of yeast?...or just use half? I might give that restart yeast a shot with the blueberry one. Cyser I think is shot.

You're supposed to use more yeast with a higher OG, which it sounds like you clearly had. One of the yeast calculators can help you estimate how much yeast to add. From what I've read, there's almost never a downside to overpitching, whereas I have run into problems with underpitching (such as seemingly stalled ferments and/or ferments that never even seem to get started). I used to think that underpitching would still reach the goal line even if it takes longer, on the theory that the existing yeast would eventually multiply to the point where they can finish the job, but sometimes that isn't what seems to happen in realty. Not sure why though.

I had such an underpitching problem just very recently using wyeast sweet mead, which started but then seemed to stall out. I restarted with the Premier Blanco, and the fermentation resumed at a fairly fast pace almost immediately.

 

[Wanne]

I've made lots of mead that didn't suit my taste and I always bottle it in 1.5L bottles or 1/2 gallon jugs and then wait until I have something to blend it with.
Mead gets better with age, so there's nothing wrong with hanging on to it while you make something else to go with it.
Perhaps make a plain hard cider and blend the sweet mead with it?

that's a good idea too. Even mix it in a club soda or something. I'm usually doing at least one cider a week. I'm already anticipating having this sweet problem with my 3 gallon batch of cherry mead (even tho I used water and not AJ...it's had a ridiculous OG of (if I read this correctly 1.160. Used two cans of puree. It's still bubbling away (bubble every 12-14 seconds). Next week is 30 days on it so I'll take a measurement then. We'll see. I'm learning the hard way with the meads lol...

 

[CKuhns]

Purchased Apple juice is typically about 1.050 +- a bit, with 3 pounds of honey i think you were in the 1.160 range for an OG. Assumes .035 gravity points per pound of honey. Many yeasts have trouble with that high an OG and will stall well short of their potential if no nutrient additions and pH adjustment. 1.160 is doable but IMO just and really takes a bit of care and more advanced practices. Good idea Blacksmith with the blending option. The other option would be to split them add about 1/2 too 2/3 again the volume water and repitch your yeast.

 

[Blacksmith1]

He also has some extremely sweet oranges in it. I looked at a bag of those cara caras at the store today. Low acid, very sweet. Thats how the bag reads. If they are enough sweeter than other oranges to advertise it then my guess is they can raise the og noticably.
And may have some type of non/hard to ferment sugar in them.

 

[Wanne]

You're supposed to use more yeast with a higher OG, which it sounds like you clearly had. One of the yeast calculators can help you estimate how much yeast to add. From what I've read, there's almost never a downside to overpitching, whereas I have run into problems with underpitching (such as seemingly stalled ferments and/or ferments that never even seem to get started). I used to think that underpitching would still reach the goal line even if it takes longer, on the theory that the existing yeast would eventually multiply to the point where they can finish the job, but sometimes that isn't what seems to happen in realty. Not sure why though.

I had such an underpitching problem just very recently using wyeast sweet mead, which started but then seemed to stall out. I restarted with the Premier Blanco, and the fermentation resumed at a fairly fast pace almost immediately.

I read some guy that say he always uses an entire pack no matter what he's doing. Thought I'd try it in a couple batches of cider (D47)...and it's "angry bubbling" lol. My gal went into the spare room (I keep my fermentation vessels in the closet)...and she came out and told me it "smelled like ass" lol. So I moved them out to the garage....but they are friggin angry bubbling. Don't think the ciders really need a full pack (used cider for one and pure unfiltered AJ for the other)...but we'll see. I'll probably start overpitching like you say for the meads. Makes sense...

 

[Wanne]

He also has some extremely sweet oranges in it. I looked at a bag of those cara caras at the store today. Low acid, very sweet. Thats how the bag reads. If they are enough sweeter than other oranges to advertise it then my guess is they can raise the og noticably.
And may have some type of non/hard to ferment sugar in them.

did you get any...just to try? Really good (on there own). Lesson learned....

 

[Wanne]

Thanks for all the input gang....appreciate it!

 

[Blacksmith1]

You can just make a starter by using a diluted version of your mist to hydrate your yeast. Give it enough time to see the activity and then pitch it in.
This can be done with a partial yeast packet as you are growing a colony. One packet is good for up to 5 gallons. As a starter a full packet can do more depending on the size of the starter grown.

 

[Blacksmith1]

did you get any...just to try? Really good (on there own). Lesson learned....

Nope. I did some blood oranges 2 weeks ago, and with SWIBO being diabetic I try to stay away from super sweet. ( might sneak a few for myself tho)

 

[Bobby_M]

Next time make sure you're adding yeast nutrient every other day for the first week. On these batches, you can try adding some acid blend and a little more (boiled and cooled) water to balance it out.

 

[mwilcox]

minor note: almost no fruit will raise gravity above something that is already well above 1.100. Yes, Cara Cara are sweet oranges, but c'mon they aren't anywhere close to 32 brix. 16 brix is rare but seen sometimes in oranges; they are still mostly water and will dilute OG of something that is roughly 3/4 apple juice and 1/4 honey (which will get you to the 1.135 to 1.140 range, roughly). Remember sweet/acid balance and don't assume that something that "tastes really sweet" is higher sugar without examining whether it is simply a lack of acid. Cara cara's are less acidic than many others. While I'm on my soapbox and along the same lines I repeatedly see people that ferment mead dry, and then add fruit and when it restarts fermentation they add the potential alcohol of the fruit to their originally calculated ABV. This step did not raise alcohol in almost any standard gravity mead - it diluted it.

/soapbox

On the subject of balance: acid, tannin and alcohol will all provide some balance. And could be considered here, or a combination thereof. Last time I had a 1.040 passionfruit melomel I was unhappy with I diluted by 40% with soda water, put it in a keg and carbonated it. 1.024 chilled carbonated acidic fruit-heavy hydromel can be quite refreshing. With the ingredients used here I'd personally probably start by diluting with my off-dry Riesling or if the orange isn't too noticeable I'd start adding it to a keg of my sweet orange blossom/Gewurztraminer pyment.

If OP really wants to "get this mead thing down" then they need to commit to always measuring OG and even calculating it to make sure the numbers make sense. Know what you are working with. Honey roughly 34 points per pound. 10lbs/3 batches = 3.33 lbs; let's assume 3 lbs for simplicity, which is roughly 102 points and about a quart of honey. Apple juice, 1.045 to 1.050. Let's say 1.048 for a nice round 3:1 juice to honey number. 3:1 will work out to about 1.138 in this. I don't see anywhere where it says what volume of orange or apple juice actually went in this. Any roughly 1.060 orange juice that is added to the previous 1 gallon volume or takes the place of some 1.138 must will dilute it. If it takes the place of apple juice it will *slightly* increase it. Again, know what you are working with, which includes sugar content and volume of your ingredients. Then aim for a final gravity number and put your recipe together based on that.

It appears these were done in one-gallon jugs and that 1g is starting volume, not the racked, finished volume. Was puree used on both of the other two, or juice, or whole fruit? If, for example, half the volume is taken up by several pounds of blueberries there's the issue right there. Finally, it's just 1 gallon...Make more mead...A LOT more mead. You'll have more options and be less attached to sub-optimal results.

I apologize to OP if it seems I came down excessively harsh on them.
cheers--
--Michael

 

[DevilDogmeadguy]

Get yourself a couple packs of Lalvin EC-1118 yeast. It will eat through anything and hast a tolerance up to 18% ABV. It will easily take out some of that sweetness without issue. Be careful though if you only have 3-4% sugar left it can burn through that in a day or two.

 

[Wanne]

minor note: almost no fruit will raise gravity above something that is already well above 1.100. Yes, Cara Cara are sweet oranges, but c'mon they aren't anywhere close to 32 brix. 16 brix is rare but seen sometimes in oranges; they are still mostly water and will dilute OG of something that is roughly 3/4 apple juice and 1/4 honey (which will get you to the 1.135 to 1.140 range, roughly). Remember sweet/acid balance and don't assume that something that "tastes really sweet" is higher sugar without examining whether it is simply a lack of acid. Cara cara's are less acidic than many others. While I'm on my soapbox and along the same lines I repeatedly see people that ferment mead dry, and then add fruit and when it restarts fermentation they add the potential alcohol of the fruit to their originally calculated ABV. This step did not raise alcohol in almost any standard gravity mead - it diluted it.

/soapbox

On the subject of balance: acid, tannin and alcohol will all provide some balance. And could be considered here, or a combination thereof. Last time I had a 1.040 passionfruit melomel I was unhappy with I diluted by 40% with soda water, put it in a keg and carbonated it. 1.024 chilled carbonated acidic fruit-heavy hydromel can be quite refreshing. With the ingredients used here I'd personally probably start by diluting with my off-dry Riesling or if the orange isn't too noticeable I'd start adding it to a keg of my sweet orange blossom/Gewurztraminer pyment.

If OP really wants to "get this mead thing down" then they need to commit to always measuring OG and even calculating it to make sure the numbers make sense. Know what you are working with. Honey roughly 34 points per pound. 10lbs/3 batches = 3.33 lbs; let's assume 3 lbs for simplicity, which is roughly 102 points and about a quart of honey. Apple juice, 1.045 to 1.050. Let's say 1.048 for a nice round 3:1 juice to honey number. 3:1 will work out to about 1.138 in this. I don't see anywhere where it says what volume of orange or apple juice actually went in this. Any roughly 1.060 orange juice that is added to the previous 1 gallon volume or takes the place of some 1.138 must will dilute it. If it takes the place of apple juice it will *slightly* increase it. Again, know what you are working with, which includes sugar content and volume of your ingredients. Then aim for a final gravity number and put your recipe together based on that.

It appears these were done in one-gallon jugs and that 1g is starting volume, not the racked, finished volume. Was puree used on both of the other two, or juice, or whole fruit? If, for example, half the volume is taken up by several pounds of blueberries there's the issue right there. Finally, it's just 1 gallon...Make more mead...A LOT more mead. You'll have more options and be less attached to sub-optimal results.

I apologize to OP if it seems I came down excessively harsh on them.
cheers--
--Michael

wasn't taken as harsh at all...I'm a big boy with thick skin. And I'll take any and all advice. Appreciate the very sound input!

 

[bernardsmith]

Sounds like the real problem was a lack of experience and a failure to measure or at least have a reasonable idea of how high a starting gravity you were aiming for. There is absolutely no problem in diluting honey with apple juice to make a cyser. The problem may come from adding too much honey to the juice. Despite what many Youtube suggest the best balance of alcohol, flavor, acidity and tannin is when the mead is around 12-14% ABV and that means that your starting gravity is around 1.100. Most apple juice has a gravity of about 1.045 -1.050 and 1 lb of honey will increase the SG of 1 gallon of the juice by 35 points (to say, about 1.080) so another half a pound of honey will bring that closse to 1.100.
There is absolutely no sense using half a pack of yeast - in the first place you are exposing the rest of the yeast to moisture, bacteria and mold. And in the second place, you need a far larger colony of yeast to ferment anything with as much sugar as your mead. Anything short of a perfect rehydrating protocol means that you probably kill about half the yeast cells so splitting a pack in two means that you are likely to be using far , far fewer viable cells than your batch needs in the best possible world. How much does a pound of honey cost? How much does a pack of yeast cost? Doesn't make much sense to potentially waste 3 lbs of honey to save - what 50 cents? which as I say, is probably going to be covered with mold and bacteria if you store it in your fridge so it will spoil your next batch too.