Dry hop, kegs, secondary questions

[Joe61]

Hello,

I am planning to try an extract kit from Northern:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/grapefruit-pulpin


I read through the instructions and was hoping the experienced folks here could provide some advice.

The recipe calls for dry hopping in a secondary. It also mentions the secondary as optional, but doesn't give information on how/when to dry hop in that situation.

It also doesn't list a target FG. (any idea what it should be?)

I am not bottling. Going to a keg.

So... follow the instructions. Leave in primary fermenter for 2 weeks. Then what? Should I dry hop in the primary for an extra week (3 weeks total in primary)?

I considered using my bottling bucket as a secondary, but it seems like so much head space.

Is it better to dry hop in the keg? If so, what is the exact process for that? Rack from primary to keg, drop in hops, close and leave at room temp for a week? Do I pressurize the keg while dry hopping, just purge or do nothing?

Any suggestions?

 

[mongoose33]

You have a couple options--one is to dry hop in the primary for several days. Northern Brewer has "secondary on the brain" but it's pretty much established that you don't need a secondary unless you need to free up the primary for more fermentation, you're aging a long time, or you're doing some special sort of flavor infusion.

The enemy of hops is oxygen. What I would do--what I've done here--is to put the dry hops in a screened tube designed to be dropped into the keg. Beer is racked from the primary to the keg through the OUT post, into a keg that has been purged of CO2. You do this by filling the keg w/ Star San, purging the headspace several times to drive out the air as much as you can, then pushing the star-san out w/ Co2 (I push mine into another keg which is then ready for the next batch, but you could push it out into a 5-gallon bucket).

I'll take pains to ensure the inside of the screened tube is purged of O2, and use a small CO2 line at a very low pressure to do that--and to push CO2 into the headspace as I add the screened tube.

Others have used muslin bags to hold the hops. The benefit of hopping directly in the primary is that the beer will have somewhat better exposure to the hops, and if you're careful racking the hop residue will stay behind. But hopping w/ the tube contains the hop residue pretty well too.

 

[Enemygod]

Pretty good advice from Mongoose33. If you dont have the seutp for pressure transfer you can just leave it all in primary and dry hop from there, then transfer to your keg as well. You could even add the dry hop after the first week and be ready to keg (depending on gravity readings) in 2 weeks. You'll have some exposure to CO2 this way, but it should be pretty minimal.

I'll take pains to ensure the inside of the screened tube is purged of O2, and use a small CO2 line at a very low pressure to do that--and to push CO2 into the headspace as I add the screened tube.

Wow, this is crazy. How do you purge a screened tube of O2? I guess you kind of explain it, but it's a screened tube!

 

[mongoose33]

I'll take pains to ensure the inside of the screened tube is purged of O2, and use a small CO2 line at a very low pressure to do that--and to push CO2 into the headspace as I add the screened tube.

Wow, this is crazy. How do you purge a screened tube of O2? I guess you kind of explain it, but it's a screened tube!

I'm just trying to displace as much air inside it as I can with CO2. The hops will have air going in with them as they're poured in, so I want to purge away that air too if I can. Take that line pushing about 1psi or maybe 2psi, point it inside the tube, and let it displace the air, which comes out the top and the sides. Do this as you're starting to slide it into the keg, and keep adding CO2 to the tube until it's mostly submerged. Then cap it and let it go into the keg the rest of the way. Put the corny keg lid back on, then purge, purge, purge.

Of course, you're right, it's a screened tube, but what I'm trying to do is change the composition of the gas inside the tube so it reduces the amount of oxygen there. If I just slide it in full of air, as the beer displaces the air that air will go out into the headspace of the keg, which I do not want.

Overkill? Too compulsive? I don't know. It's either an admirable quality or a character flaw, you decide. Seems a small price to pay given all the time, money, and effort that has gone into getting the beer to that point.

And of course, the screened tube and anything else is dunked in star-san to sanitize it, including my hands.

BTW, here's the tube I'm talking about:


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=590731

 

[Enemygod]

Overkill? Too compulsive? I don't know. It's either an admirable quality or a character flaw, you decide. Seems a small price to pay given all the time, money, and effort that has gone into getting the beer to that point.

And of course, the screened tube and anything else is dunked in star-san to sanitize it, including my hands.

BTW, here's the tube I'm talking about:


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=590731

Definitely an admirable quality, one I don't have at this stage of the game. Although at some point soon I will be O2 transferring from my fermenter the same you posted in another thread. Ingenious.

I purchased the same screened tube. Haven't used it yet though.

 

[Joe61]

Thanks for the info. I was a little confused reading the part about racking through the out post, until I read the next message. I am not set up for a pressure transfer. I may look into that method for the future.

From the information here, it seems I will be okay just placing hops (and grapefruit included in the kit) in a muslin bag and dropping (carefully) into the primary. Slowly peeling up the lid and gently lowering the bag in should minimize exposure?

I can do this after about 1 week? Any harm (or advantage) in waiting two weeks before dry hopping in the primary then leaving it alone for an extra week?

 

[mongoose33]

Thanks for the info. I was a little confused reading the part about racking through the out post, until I read the next message. I am not set up for a pressure transfer. I may look into that method for the future.

From the information here, it seems I will be okay just placing hops (and grapefruit included in the kit) in a muslin bag and dropping (carefully) into the primary. Slowly peeling up the lid and gently lowering the bag in should minimize exposure?

I can do this after about 1 week? Any harm (or advantage) in waiting two weeks before dry hopping in the primary then leaving it alone for an extra week?

I'm not doing a pressure transfer, Joe, just a gravity transfer. If you have a spigot this is fairly easy to do. If you're using a siphon, somewhat more involved but still possible.

Here's a pic that shows it. My CO2 return line (to the top of the fermenter) goes into a cutoff airlock, as that's the only tube I had at the time that fit the CO2 line. A cutoff piece of a bottle filler or something similar would work as well.

 

[Saxon]

I'm not doing a pressure transfer, Joe, just a gravity transfer. If you have a spigot this is fairly easy to do. If you're using a siphon, somewhat more involved but still possible.

Here's a pic that shows it. My CO2 return line (to the top of the fermenter) goes into a cutoff airlock, as that's the only tube I had at the time that fit the CO2 line. A cutoff piece of a bottle filler or something similar would work as well.

View attachment 392814

This is brilliant! You can do this with glass too, I think. I've been trying to figure out a way to do low oxygen transfer into a keg from a glass carboy and I think with one of those carboy hoods you could pull it off this way without having to pressurize the carboy. If you stopped just short of completely relieving pressure in the keg after purging that residual CO2 pressure might be enough to start the siphon without blowing out your carboy. The way I do it now is with a small hand pump that forces air into the carboy, and it handles that pressure just fine - if you hooked up your CO2 line to the small hole on the carboy hood prior to connecting it to the keg it should accomplish the same thing. You'd have to be really careful not to introduce too much CO2 to the carboy but I'm pretty sure it's doable. Possibilities! :rockin:

 

[Joe61]

That looks pretty cool. I could rig that up if I used my bottling bucket as the primary (Same bucket, except it has the spigot).

So you prep the keg (star san which is pumped out via CO2). Keg stays sealed shut. I'm guessing the keg is not under any significant pressure?

Then connect the spigot to the "out" valve.
Connect an air hose to the "in" and run that back into the top of the primary. (as in your photo).

I realize you want to keep the system as "closed" as possible to avoid outside air coming in. However, does it need to be sealed for the siphon system to function? Or does the liquid enter the keg by gravity alone?

It looks pretty straightforward. You definitely have me thinking about it. Thanks!


Edited to add: In the end, this is just a fancy (and safer) way of racking to a keg, right?

 

[Saxon]

That looks pretty cool. I could rig that up if I used my bottling bucket as the primary (Same bucket, except it has the spigot).

So you prep the keg (star san which is pumped out via CO2). Keg stays sealed shut. I'm guessing the keg is not under any significant pressure?

Then connect the spigot to the "out" valve.
Connect an air hose to the "in" and run that back into the top of the primary. (as in your photo).

I realize you want to keep the system as "closed" as possible to avoid outside air coming in. However, does it need to be sealed for the siphon system to function? Or does the liquid enter the keg by gravity alone?

It looks pretty straightforward. You definitely have me thinking about it. Thanks!


Edited to add: In the end, this is just a fancy (and safer) way of racking to a keg, right?

Gravity pulls the beer out through your spigot, down the beer line, through the IN post, down the dip tube, and into the bottom of the keg. As the keg fills, the liquid pushes the CO2 in the keg up through the OUT post, through the gas line, and into the top of the fermenter. That way you aren't creating a vacuum inside your sealed fermenter, which would stop the flow otherwise.

Everything stays sealed and really the only oxygen you deal with, provided the keg was completely purged beforehand, is whatever happens to be in your headspace in the fermenter and in your lines - both should be minimal. The keg shouldn't need to be under pressure at all, although a slight pressure may help get things going.

 

[mongoose33]

That looks pretty cool. I could rig that up if I used my bottling bucket as the primary (Same bucket, except it has the spigot).

So you prep the keg (star san which is pumped out via CO2). Keg stays sealed shut. I'm guessing the keg is not under any significant pressure?

It can't be; otherwise you'd push CO2 up into the fermenter through the spigot. It would overcome gravity. Here's my procedure which once you get used to it, is very fast:

Once I've purged the keg of Star San, I'll remove the jumper I use I'll take it to the sink and connect the racking tubing/QD I use to connect it to the fermenter. Of course, that opens the keg to the outside and out comes pressurized CO2--along w/ any residual Star-San. I tip the keg to whatever side the dip tube is on unless it's centered. Usually I'll do that with the gas still connected unless i have a lot of pressure in there.

Then I remove the gas QD and then pull the pressure relief valve to eliminate any internal pressure in the keg. I'll take the racking tubing/QD, submerge it in Star-San for a moment, use a spray bottle to spray the inside and outside of the spigot to sanitize it, remove the tubing/QD from the Star-San and attach to keg and to spigot, spraying the post of the keg as well. I spray the crap out of everything with Star-San!

Then I dunk the QD for the gas return to the fermenter, change the airlock to the one I connect to, spray the gas post, connect the QD and the tubing to the top of the fermenter, and start the flow of beer.

Sounds more complicated than it is. BTW, I have some silicone tubing w/ .313 ID and it works wonderfully for my racking tubing. Easy to get on over the spigot barb.

Then connect the spigot to the "out" valve.

The out post and QD.

Connect an air hose to the "in" and run that back into the top of the primary. (as in your photo).

Yep.

I realize you want to keep the system as "closed" as possible to avoid outside air coming in. However, does it need to be sealed for the siphon system to function? Or does the liquid enter the keg by gravity alone?

I'm not sure what you mean by "does it need to be sealed." By keeping the keg sealed to the spigot and the gas line going to the fermenter, you keep it closed to the outside air (with one exception I'll note in a moment). It works no differently than if you had removed the Gas post and left it off, i.e., the CO2 would exit there.

In other words, there is enough head pressure on the spigot from 5 gallons of beer sitting above it to push it right into the keg. It'll take 10 minutes or so, maybe more, to do this, as it's not under pressure, but it'll go. Find something to clean, or do, or drink a beer, or sit, transfixed, as you watch the beer travel into the keg.

It looks pretty straightforward. You definitely have me thinking about it. Thanks!

Edited to add: In the end, this is just a fancy (and safer) way of racking to a keg, right?

It is pretty straightforward. Fancy? It's a KLUDGE! But it works perfectly.

**************

BTW, it's inevitable that you will think about and probably try this: why not pressurize the fermenter to speed up the beer transfer, i.e., connect the gas to the in tube to the fermenter, increase the pressure, and force that beer out faster?

Maybe you'll figure it out. At more than about 1 or 2 psi the top wants to pop off, either the cork or the lid if it can do that. And if you have glass, well, you pressurize that at your own risk.

I stopped trying. Didn't speed it up such that I could see it made a difference, and I had to hold the lid down to get it to work.

********************

Now, here's the one caveat which I'm thinking about changing. There still is one small source of air that will get into the keg: it's the air inside the spigot barb and inside the racking tubing. I'm probably going to start trying to purge that with CO2 before I connect it. It's not much air, and it all goes right to the headspace so beer entering the keg isn't in contact with it. As a proportion of all the gas in the keg as beer initially enters, it's probably 1/1000 or less than what you'd have with a keg full of air.

But I want NOTHING so even that tiny bit in the racking tubing is bothering me.

 

[mongoose33]

This is brilliant! You can do this with glass too, I think. I've been trying to figure out a way to do low oxygen transfer into a keg from a glass carboy and I think with one of those carboy hoods you could pull it off this way without having to pressurize the carboy. If you stopped just short of completely relieving pressure in the keg after purging that residual CO2 pressure might be enough to start the siphon without blowing out your carboy. The way I do it now is with a small hand pump that forces air into the carboy, and it handles that pressure just fine - if you hooked up your CO2 line to the small hole on the carboy hood prior to connecting it to the keg it should accomplish the same thing. You'd have to be really careful not to introduce too much CO2 to the carboy but I'm pretty sure it's doable. Possibilities! :rockin:

I can't take credit for it. I saw someone else doing it here. If I could remember who, I'd give him credit. I may go back and look so I can do just that.

EDITED TO ADD: Here's the thread I first saw this in--and PlexVector is the one who showed it. I've shamelessly used it ever since, but it came from him. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=587880

 

[Joe61]

Okay. I've read and re-read the info in this thread. Then I read the linked thread where the idea was born. I think I get it. Also see how it sounds more complicated than it probably is.

I'm going to ferment in my bottling bucket (with spigot) and try this method. Just have to get something to attach the "air in" hose to my bucket top. I may still end up dry hopping in the primary unless I also decide to get one of those cool hop baskets to use in the keg.


Thank you all VERY MUCH for the help and great ideas. Very much appreciated.


Edited to add: In for a penny, in for a pound. I just ordered the hop filter from NorCal. Going to try the gravity feed system with dry hopping in the keg. Thanks again for the help.

 

[Joe61]

I have two different beers currently fermenting. Bottling buckets (with spigot) were used for each and I have hoses with ball keg connectors ready to go. Going to try this direct to keg gravity transfer system.

Question -

How to I avoid transferring sediments to the keg? One of the beers had quite a bit of hops additions. When I mentioned to the LHBS guy about fermenting in a bucket with t spigot, he indicated it was a bad idea.