double decoction mash with BIAB?

[fun4stuff]

I plan on BIAB brewing a clone of Victory Prima Pils (https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/victory-prima-pils-clone/).

The recipe calls for a double decoction mash, which I've never done. I was hoping someone could give me some clarification on how this is done.

"Use a double decoction mash schedule with a protein rest at 122° F (50° C) for 20 minutes, main mash rests at 145° F (63° C) for 40 minutes and 155° F (68° C) for 20 minutes, and a mash-out at 165° F (74° C) for 10 minutes."

1. So target mash in temp should be 122 and hold it there for 20 minutes.
2. Then remove 1/3 of mash/grains from the bag, raise temp to 155 for 10 mins, then boil it for 15-30 mins and add it back to the mash which should raise the temp to 145 and hold for 40 mins.
3. Then remove 1/3 grains/mash, raise temp to 155 for 10 mins, then boil for 15-30 mins and return to it to the mash which should raise temp to 155 which hold for 20 mins.
4. Then heat everything to 165 and hold for 10 mins (i typically dont do mash outs)

Is this correct?

I've read decoction mashing doesn't really add anything nowadays. I've also heard no need to do protein rest. Should I just skip it?

If I skip the decoction, how should I do the mash? Could I just do a stepped mash with rests at 145 for 40 mins and 155 for 20 mins (directly heating pot raise temp after first rest)?

Thanks

 

[John Eberly]

Traditional decoctions contribute to malty flavors, allowed brewers to produce consistent results without thermometers, and made the best use of undermodified malts.

You could probably skip the protein rest at 122, mash in at 145, and do a single decoction to get the maltiness and raise temps to the higher mash target.

If you do the double decoction, draw off the thickest third of the mash for the first step. This keeps the active enzymes in the mash tun to work on the grain. Then raise the decoction to the 155 mash temp and hold it 15 minutes before you boil it. This helps conversion, then when you boil the decoction you get the temp rise and you break out more starch.

For the second decoction, draw the thin 1/3 of the mash and boil it to denature the enzymes and get your temp rise.

If you only do one decoction, do it with the thick part of the mash.

 

[Weezy]

Skip it. Use fully modified malts and put in 1% melanoidin. save yourself the trouble.



Does anyone actually think Victory uses a decoction mash schedule?

 

[bajaedition]

Decoction mashes are fun and you really should try the double you want, there will be a benefit from the protein rest, less chill haze
remember that highly modified grains do not mean there is not a benefit from doing something, it just means the macro breweries that developed the highly modified grains can brew using less expense, you do not have the facilities to do some of their techniques however. If you want to do a protein rest, by all means do it. it will help eliminate chill haze.

 

[Weezy]

Decoction mashes are fun and you really should try the double you want, there will be a benefit from the protein rest, less chill haze
remember that highly modified grains do not mean there is not a benefit from doing something, it just means the macro breweries that developed the highly modified grains can brew using less expense, you do not have the facilities to do some of their techniques however. If you want to do a protein rest, by all means do it. it will help eliminate chill haze.

Or you could just use melanoidin ... and gelatin if you end up with chill gaze.

 

[Homercidal]

Do the decoction if you want to. It's something I've wanted to do, but can't force myself to spend the time on yet. Your instructions are accurate. You can watch Braukaiser perform a decoction on his website if you want to see it in action.

But several experiments I've read seem to indicate that people have a hard time telling the difference and even when they do, they don't necessarily prefer that beer over a single infusion.

 

[fun4stuff]

Thanks everyone. Maybe I will give it a shot for the fun of it since I've never done it... And next time skip it and add a little melanoidin see if I can tell the difference.

I mainly just wanted to make sure I was understanding the process. A lot of the articles online go into a lot of detail which obfuscates the general process. Sounds like I just have to remember to hold the decoction at the Sach rest temp prior to boiling.

I watched the braukaiser vids which are good, but I really like this video from brewing tv:
https://youtu.be/IIQPQmELWPo

 

[dmtaylor]

I would skip the protein rest, which is detrimental with 21st century malts. Then you can easily do your double decoction.

Based on the general instructions, you need to first strike in with water hot enough to hit 145 F. Stir well, then immediately remove about 1/2 of the mash (mostly solids without much liquid) and bring to a boil for about 20-30 minutes, leaving behind the other half to rest at 145 F for the 40 minutes specified. Then recombine and stir well. New temperature should be roughly 155 F. Then immediately remove about 1/2 the mash again, bring to a boil for 5-10 minutes, while the rest of the mash is resting at the 155 F specified for 20 minutes. Then recombine, stir well, and you've mashed out. Drain everything off, sparge if desired, and continue to brew as normal.

That's all there is to it really. It only adds a few extra minutes to the brew day, and you've double decocted and had oh so much fun doing it.

Does decoction really improve flavor? Probably not. But it's just something fun to try sometime. Can you safely skip the decoction and step mashing? Of course you can. In this case, just mash at 150 F for an hour and call it good. But it's not as much fun.

 

[fun4stuff]

I would skip the protein rest, which is detrimental with 21st century malts. Then you can easily do your double decoction.

Based on the general instructions, you need to first strike in with water hot enough to hit 145 F. Stir well, then immediately remove about 1/2 of the mash (mostly solids without much liquid) and bring to a boil for about 20-30 minutes, leaving behind the other half to rest at 145 F for the 40 minutes specified. Then recombine and stir well. New temperature should be roughly 155 F. Then immediately remove about 1/2 the mash again, bring to a boil for 5-10 minutes, while the rest of the mash is resting at the 155 F specified for 20 minutes. Then recombine, stir well, and you've mashed out. Drain everything off, sparge if desired, and continue to brew as normal.

That's all there is to it really. It only adds a few extra minutes to the brew day, and you've double decocted and had oh so much fun doing it.

Does decoction really improve flavor? Probably not. But it's just something fun to try sometime. Can you safely skip the decoction and step mashing? Of course you can. In this case, just mash at 150 F for an hour and call it good. But it's not as much fun.

Thanks for the concise summary. I think I got it now.

 

[bajaedition]

Decoctions were started before they had good thermometers, and it worked, but besides that it helped develop some of the nuances of different styles it was used in. And that is the big reason to do them today is to match the style. Pilsner Urquell still does decoctions as does one of the big Oktoberfest beers out of Munich, i just forget which one. For that reason I do my yearly Oktoberfest Beer by a triple decoction. I like the way it turns out and like the experience of doing it that way. You know Bragging rights. The carmelization of the sugars is unique also.

 

[fun4stuff]

Well, I finally got around to brewing my pilsner using double decoction as discussed above. Wasn't that bad... Had fun doing something new. I don't think it really added much time to the brew day... Just not as much down time during the mash as I'm used to.