After several years of being to busy working and raising children to brew I am finally getting back to it. I have a brew kit that's several years old but has been well stored. I am going to assumed the grains are probably no good ( I will look today) and the pellitized hops have probably lost most of thier potency but I would assume the LME is still good. What says the hive mind ?
does extract go bad ?
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The liquid extract does have a shelf life. It's best used fresh. If properly stored, kept cool and dry, dry extract can last almost indefinitely.
If I were you, given that you're getting back to brewing after a long hiatus, I'd use fresh ingredients for everything. If the beer, using old, stale ingredients, doesn't turn out, do you blame the ingredients or the processes with which you're probably rusty?
Get good stuff. Enjoy the beer.
If I were you, given that you're getting back to brewing after a long hiatus, I'd use fresh ingredients for everything. If the beer, using old, stale ingredients, doesn't turn out, do you blame the ingredients or the processes with which you're probably rusty?
Get good stuff. Enjoy the beer.
You might want to get a fresh kit. Just my opinion.
http://brulosophy.com/2017/11/27/the-impact-of-age-on-liquid-malt-extract-exbeeriment-results/
http://brulosophy.com/2017/11/27/the-impact-of-age-on-liquid-malt-extract-exbeeriment-results/
I hate wasting stuff, but in this case, IMO it's a wise choice.
505-Brewer
Well-Known Member
Grains probably in better shap than the lme actually. It’ll make drinkable beer. It depends how discerning you are and your philosophy on brewing....
I agree, it will make beer. Now if the hops smell like parmesan cheese, don't use, buy new ones.
Probably also best to replace the package of yeast with a fresh and perhaps better one.
Oh, don't do a secondary after xx days, leave in primary fermenter for the entire duration. And keep your ferm temps in the recommended range for your yeast, and preferably on the low side of that.
If you want to spend a little bit of money against the risk of something not so good I would say go for it. The kit is already paid for. I would use amend with more grain and new yeast. But do a new kit first.
LME becomes very oxidized and stale indeed after just a few months of age or maybe a year. I'd replace anything older than a year. You can still use it to make yeast starters but even that can have a flavor impact.
I'd buy a new kit and brew that. If it turns out good, you have beer to drink and you know your process is OK. Then I would brew the old kit. If it turns out good, you win. If not, well...you tried. It may well turn out to be less than your best but still be drinkable. I might not enter it into a contest though.
BrewnWKopperKat
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http://blog.brewingwithbriess.com/secrets-to-keeping-your-liquid-extracts-fresh/
more information in the presentations from 2004 / 2005:
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Malting101/Technical_Presentations.htm
BruceH
Mostly Retired
Another way to look at it is what does it cost to brew it and find out? The kit is already paid for, maybe you need a pack of dry yeast to find out but that's about it besides your time.
I am not saying you're wrong but I am curious how LME in a sealed heat packed container can oxidize ? If there that much air in it when the package it ? honest question
There is "alot" of oxygen and water in the can, that is why it oxidizes. Temperature speed up the process.
BruceH
Mostly Retired
I've only used LME a few times. It's never gone stale on me but I haven't kept it around long enough for that to happen.
I did recently pick up a deal on 6 6lb containers of LME branded as Malliard but made by Briess. I've used one of them so far. There is no airspace in the containers. They are completely full, no air bubbles, and sealed very well with one of the ultrasonic welded peel off inner lids with a screw lid on top.
They are being stored in cold storage but I can't see how they would oxidize, time will tell.
I did recently pick up a deal on 6 6lb containers of LME branded as Malliard but made by Briess. I've used one of them so far. There is no airspace in the containers. They are completely full, no air bubbles, and sealed very well with one of the ultrasonic welded peel off inner lids with a screw lid on top.
They are being stored in cold storage but I can't see how they would oxidize, time will tell.
I'm surprised that Briess points to continuing Maillard reactions for being the cause of LME darkening. I still wonder if oxidation also plays a large role in that. It must...
The Presentations are very concise, informative overviews. Thank you!
The LME will be fine to use, you may find it darker than you expect, but that just happens with age. I quit brewing for 7 years and my first brew coming back used LME from an open container (really dark 'light' extract), and it turned out fine ... Seemed fine to me, I might not have the same response if I made it today).
Ridenour64
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I’ve been reading a book and where I left off, just today, talks about how LME rapidly degrades.
“Because malt extract is a highly concentrated mix of water, sugar, and protein, it has all the elements necessary for a Maillard browning reaction, even at room temperature, which can result in beer with an unpleasant lingering flavor that my colleagues in Chicago refer to as “ball-point pen” flavor. The term “cidery” is also sometimes used in this context. This browning reaction causes malt extract to darken as it ages, and also during manufacture, so it is often nigh impossible to brew an extremely pale beer, like a German-style Pilsner, with liquid extracts. Spray-dried extracts have a bit better track record for becoming stale and darkening, but they are not immune. Freshness matters, so find out which malt extract brands sell the fastest at your supplier, and stick to those.“
-Mastering Home Brew, Randy Mosher
with that being said, I would absolutely brew that kit unless there was something obviously off.
“Because malt extract is a highly concentrated mix of water, sugar, and protein, it has all the elements necessary for a Maillard browning reaction, even at room temperature, which can result in beer with an unpleasant lingering flavor that my colleagues in Chicago refer to as “ball-point pen” flavor. The term “cidery” is also sometimes used in this context. This browning reaction causes malt extract to darken as it ages, and also during manufacture, so it is often nigh impossible to brew an extremely pale beer, like a German-style Pilsner, with liquid extracts. Spray-dried extracts have a bit better track record for becoming stale and darkening, but they are not immune. Freshness matters, so find out which malt extract brands sell the fastest at your supplier, and stick to those.“
-Mastering Home Brew, Randy Mosher
with that being said, I would absolutely brew that kit unless there was something obviously off.
It does get a twangy taste. The package is not vacuum sealed, so yes, it does become oxidized. Some people can taste it, some can't, and it does get darker. You may be lucky and be 1 of the people who can't taste the age, but I definitely can.
I think the twangy cidery taste I used to attribute to the small amount of sugar used for priming the bottles (I did partial mash brewing a long time ago; bought the LME in bulk) was really from stale LME. I use a lot more sugar now without any problems. I still have some of that old malt in my deep freezer, it has gotten really dark.
It's probably okay for making yeast starters if you let the yeast settle out and pour off most of the starter-beer before you pitch the yeast. I don't know why I haven't thrown mine away... nostalgia, maybe?
It's probably okay for making yeast starters if you let the yeast settle out and pour off most of the starter-beer before you pitch the yeast. I don't know why I haven't thrown mine away... nostalgia, maybe?
Thanks for all the replies, I brewed it with some fresh hops ( although the original hops smelled weak but not bad ) the DME was a brick and did some buring to the bottom of my boil kettle so as soon as I cleaning it out a brewed a a fresh kit but fermented it anyow just so the kids could see it happen.
dwhite60
Well-Known Member
I'm very new to this and had my Christmas presents beer kit for 7 years, but thanks to Covid-19 shutting down both my jobs, I'm free to Brew.
Knowing I would probably not make a good beer my first go at it, I used my old LME, hops and corn sugar and am experimenting a little with a split batch of adding brown sugar to the boil and fruit slurry & spice to the second half.
I'm currently looking at ordering all new stuff but I've worked out all the uncertainties of my process.
Knowing I would probably not make a good beer my first go at it, I used my old LME, hops and corn sugar and am experimenting a little with a split batch of adding brown sugar to the boil and fruit slurry & spice to the second half.
I'm currently looking at ordering all new stuff but I've worked out all the uncertainties of my process.
coonmanx
Well-Known Member
The first batch of beer I ever made was with a can of Blue Ribbon hopped extract that I found on the shelves of a small grocery store in Iowa City, IA. It even had an insert under the lid with information on where I could get some supplies. Who knows how long it was there.... I used it along with some crystal malt, some dry malt extract and a few fresh hops that I got from the local brew shop and it came out great. And that was the beginning of the journey.
I have also used old hops that were not stored properly that someone gave me. But I supplemented them with some newer and fresher hops. It worked but I definitely could not count on the hops giving a whole lot of bittering.
I have also used old hops that were not stored properly that someone gave me. But I supplemented them with some newer and fresher hops. It worked but I definitely could not count on the hops giving a whole lot of bittering.
coonmanx
Well-Known Member
BrewnWKopperKat
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One of the advantages of using 10% to 20% table sugar in higher OG extract+steep recipes is that table sugar is 100% fermentable. Personally, I'm not a fan of IPAs that are 100% DME/LME - but an 80/20 DME/sugar blend works for me.
Brown sugar (which often contains molasses) can add interesting flavors. Mosher's book Mastering Homebrew has a section that covers additional types of sugars.
Brown sugar (which often contains molasses) can add interesting flavors. Mosher's book Mastering Homebrew has a section that covers additional types of sugars.
The corn sugar was for bottle conditioning. DME works for that as well or do you just mean as a fermentable?
I also have a few questions about the other half of my split batch that's still in the fermentation bucket. The yeast seems to have dropped out at 1.020 and I've tried a few ways to get it going again. Nothing has worked. How will this effect carbonation in bottle in about 2 weeks?
schmurf
Well-Known Member
1.020 seems to be a fairly common final gravity for LME beers. I think you'll be fine, stale LME taste isn't the worst taste a beer can have.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Recipe?
YES, absolutely. I've had this happen to me. LME goes dark quickly, and yours was 7 years old (right?). Yes, this is from the age of the LME. Use fresh next time and then it will "only" be a deep orange color instead of brown. If you want lighter color, use dry DME instead of LME.
FG 1.020 is normal for LME beers as well. DME can get the gravity lower.
5 gallon batch
6.6 lb wheat LME
1 oz UK gold hops
1 lb brown sugar
12.5g instant dry Baker's yeast
LME kept at a low boil for 60 minutes. Full 1oz hops at 60. Seriously brought brown sugar to a bowl just to dissolve in water and sterilize. OG 1.055 - FG 1.020.
Racked and bottled 2.25 gallons for bottling after adding 5 oz priming corn sugar. Second half is still in primary fermenter. I added 5 pears frozen, blended and heated for sterilization and a little caramelization. Pinch of allspice and 1 clove.
This is the beer 1 week in primary, 9 days bottled, 24 hour cold crash.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Not replying directly to anyone specifically, but to the idea that LME typically finishes at 1.016 to 1.020 (not clear if people are considering strain of yeast).
I don't brew with LME, so if the forum wants to have a "consensus opinion" that LME finishes around 1.020 (without regard to recipe), I can be OK with that. A couple of LME-based one gallon Hop Sampler style batches (US-05, S-05, S-33, ...) may be science-y enough to prove/disprove the consensus. It's also plausible that there would be some variation between brands (Briess, Muntons, ...) of LME.
With my DME+steep batches (mainly Briess, recently some Muntons), if I start at OG 44 (all DME, no table sugar), with US-05 or Nottingham yeast, I get a FG around 10. If I want to end at OG 20, I would use a strain like Windsor.
ncbrewer
Well-Known Member
My LME batches with around 1.050 - 1.055 OG average about 1.012 FG as a reference. I did have problems with poor attenuation, but attention to yeast management got me past these problems.
I opened a bottle of my beer and feel like it's mellowed it very nicely. My wife took a sip and said she thinks it tastes like a crisp yet toasty porter/Stout.
The carbonation is awesome. It's very soda-like, small prickly bubbles.
I'm actually very happy with this!
The carbonation is awesome. It's very soda-like, small prickly bubbles.
I'm actually very happy with this!
Sebastian Weetabix
Well-Known Member
Anytime you think your extract is bad, just put some on fresh, hot buttered pancakes!
You’ll never look at maple syrup the same way again!
You’ll never look at maple syrup the same way again!
Oddly enough, to test my Baker's yeast, I made a maple wine/Mead with shitty flavored corn syrup stuff and fresh strawberries.
Dunno how it's gonna turn out, but LME on pancakes and maple syrup in my Homebrew mash. I like how this is going.
smata67
Well-Known Member
I don't usually do LME, but I had the opportunity to get about 50 lb at $1/lb and did not pass. Price was due to age, probably around 2-3 years old. The ultralight MoreBeer stuff in the silver bags. All recipes I did with that LME ended up at 1.020 and even the lighter beer recipes (all ales) came out dark despite adding the LME at flameout. The LME tasted fine, but looked dark prior to use. All the beers turned out fine.
