Does everyone rack to secondary??

[BarleyWater]

Basically you answered your own question, but, also it is for the reduction of diacetyl.

BTW, I generally secondary, but, don't krausen my brew.

No I didn't, a conditioning tank/secondary does not carbonate the beer. Krausening would be done at bottling/kegging time.

And diacetyl can only be reduced by keeping the beer on the yeast, not by moving it off. The yeast will uptake the diacetyl (along with acetalaldehyde and other intermediary compounds) when the other food source (maltose) has been depleted. It isn't necessary to add yeast back into the beer to reduce diacetyl, if you never take it off the yeast to begin with.

 

[boo boo]

Krausening would be done at bottling/kegging time.

And diacetyl can only be reduced by keeping the beer on the yeast, not by moving it off. The yeast will uptake the diacetyl (along with acetalaldehyde and other intermediary compounds) when the other food source (maltose) has been depleted. It isn't necessary to add yeast back into the beer to reduce diacetyl, if you never take it off the yeast to begin with.

According to Aston Lewis krausening helps remove diacetyl if the beer was prematurely removed from the fermenting yeast.

 

[goplayoutside]

Just another guy chiming in to say that I don't bother with secondary and I like my beer. I am an extract brewer and I have found great improvements to my brew by switching to DME, doing a bigger boil, and keeping my fermentation temps in the primary stable. I am thinking of taking half of a batch out of the primary once it's done being active and putting it into a secondary for a side-by side, but honestly am probably too lazy.

Boring, I know.

 

[BarleyWater]

According to Aston Lewis krausening helps remove diacetyl if the beer was prematurely removed from the fermenting yeast.

Of course it does, because it re-introduces YEAST...

It isn't necessary to add yeast back into the beer to reduce diacetyl, if you never take it off the yeast to begin with.

...but it isn't a neccesary step, only needs to be done if you did something wrong to begin with.

 

[The Pol]

I just rack carefully to an empty keg and let it condition there at about 70F, then when it is ready to tap, into the kegerator it goes. The ONLY time I send a beer to a secondary carboy is if I am #1 dry hopping or #2 adding spices, oak, etc... that I do NOT want in my kegged beer. In the summer the beers I brew are all session (1.045 or less) beers and they go from the primary (cold crashed) to a keg and to my belly.

 

[TeleTwanger]

"Kraeusen is the German word used to describe the infusion of a strongly fermenting young beer into a larger volume of wort or beer that is past the stage of strong fermentation"

"Employing kruesen beer to top up the secondary (lager) fermenter induces a strong temporary fementation and reduces diacetyl and the risk of oxidation and contamination at racking"

Again, Noonan is referring to Lager yeast which go through a longer and more needed secondary fermention to rid diacetyl and also stabilize the beer and mellow the flavor. But I think that Ales also benefit from a secondary fermentation. Does one have to secondary Ales? No.

I think a lot of this goes back to the early days of (illegal) homebrewing when people were using suspect yeast, non-existing asceptic techniques, and there wasn't any available info other than professional brewery text books that didn't translate to small scale brewing. They ended up with nasty beer. I hear a lot of people tell me how thier Grandfather made beer and it tasted wicked bad, and often when I tell people I brew the first thing they say is, "Does it taste good?"

 

[homebrewer_99]

I haven't read the book myself, but tell me, why on earth would anyone add 5% actively fermenting beer to their conditioning tank. And why would this matter... ...if you are just going to add more yeast back in the with the 5%.

The process of krausening is well documented, and is for the production of bottle and cask conditioned beers in order to get carbonation.

This process allows the brewer to stay within the guidelines of the Reinheitsgebot. :rockin:

 

[KillerGX]

Hey guys,
Ok so, this is my first post, and im am a noob.

I hate to bring up an old thread, but this thread seemed the most relevant to my problem.

I just cooked up my first brew last night, a Honey Wheat Ale kit I bought from austinbrew(dot)com..... I used the White Labs Hefeweizen Ale yeast, and I got a lag time of 13 hours.

I have been getting different opinions from both veteran homebrewers, as well as the people working at my local homebrew shop, on the issue of racking to a secondary fermentation vessel...
The person at the homebrew shop suggested I dont use the secondary, since wheat beers tend to be hazy...
But, my brother who brews beer, suggested that I do use secondary, because I will have less sediment in my bottles... (i am bottling, not kegging)

So I understand that there are a lot of different opinions on this issue..
my question is, under my circumstances, and the equipment I am using.... what would be my best option for attaining a good quality, and clearer bottle for drinking...

I understand there are plenty of variables, so any help would be helpful... I have my first batch in the primary bucket right now... and I would like to know how long I should wait before I rack to secondary...or if I even should, for my particular style of beer.

I just really want to have a quality, and successful first batch... Any input would be appreciated.

Should I go by the 1-2-3 rule.... even for a Honey wheat ale?
I heard I should rack when my bubbles get down to 1 per 30seconds to a minute.

I also heard I should check my hydrometer readings, (which im more comfortable doing).....but in my beer has a OG of 1.046, and my target FG is 1.011....what gravity should I check for before I rack to a secondary........ this is something I couldn't find in any tread, or even the John Palmer book.

here is my recipe kit.

Honey Wheat Ale:

5 lbs. LME (wheat extract)
1 lbs Honey

8oz 2-Row Malt
4oz Crystal 20L Malt
8oz White Wheat
8oz Honey Malt

bittering hops: 3/4 oz. Cascade 60 minutes boil
aroma hops: 1.4oz. Cascade 5mins left in boil

Yeast: White Labs : American Hefewezen Ale 320

Thanks guys, and take it easy on the n00b.............
Im not here to bug people.... I just wanna make a good first homebrew is all...Thanks again.

 

[HomerJR]

This can sometimes be a hot topic to discuss here, with very strong opinions on both sides. And when there are strong opinions on both sides...... both sides probably work. Which is better? Whichever one works best for you!

That being said, I'd be wary of the 1-2-3 rule. Don't let the calendar be your guide, let your hydrometer be your guide! After AT LEAST a week, take a gravity sample. When you have the same gravity for 3 consecutive days, your fermentation is done, and you can rack to a secondary (if that's your choice). If you're skipping the secondary, then leave it in the primary at least another week, then bottle or keg.

Personally, I'm in the primary-only camp. I'm a busy guy and have lots of things to do. If I can skip racking to a secondary, it's one less thing to do, and still makes great beer.

 

[KillerGX]

This can sometimes be a hot topic to discuss here, with very strong opinions on both sides. And when there are strong opinions on both sides...... both sides probably work. Which is better? Whichever one works best for you!

That being said, I'd be wary of the 1-2-3 rule. Don't let the calendar be your guide, let your hydrometer be your guide! After AT LEAST a week, take a gravity sample. When you have the same gravity for 3 consecutive days, your fermentation is done, and you can rack to a secondary (if that's your choice). If you're skipping the secondary, then leave it in the primary at least another week, then bottle or keg.

Personally, I'm in the primary-only camp. I'm a busy guy and have lots of things to do. If I can skip racking to a secondary, it's one less thing to do, and still makes great beer.

Thank you......

I will check the hydrometer on day 5 then on day 7... to check if fermentation is done...

 

[Revvy]

Thank you......

I will check the hydrometer on day 5 then on day 7... to check if fermentation is done...

Honestly, even if you want to secondary why don't you consider waiting til days 10 and 12 or 12 and 14, just to give the yeast a little time to do what they like to do; clean up after themselves. Your beer will thank you for it.

 

[KillerGX]

Honestly, even if you want to secondary why don't you consider waiting til days 10 and 12 or 12 and 14, just to give the yeast a little time to do what they like to do; clean up after themselves. Your beer will thank you for it.

I cant argue with someone with 17k posts...

my primary is at a constant temp of 68-71 degrees....

even at those temps you think I should wait 10 days?....

my kit says to rack at 5-7 days..... but as I understand it from John Palmers book, as well as many other threads i searched, I should rack to secondary when Primary fermentation is complete? right?

thanks 4 ur help.

 

[Revvy]

I cant argue with someone with 17k posts...

my primary is at a constant temp of 68-71 degrees....

even at those temps you think I should wait 10 days?....

my kit says to rack at 5-7 days..... but as I understand it from John Palmers book, as well as many other threads i searched, I should rack to secondary when Primary fermentation is complete? right?

thanks 4 ur help.

Well I vote for the longest contact with the primary yeast possible, that's why many of us don't secondary at all...and that's becomming the trend despite what this 2 year old trend may say.

If I DO rack to secondary, I wait 14 days, and secondary for another 14, or if lagring, much longer.

Generally speaking kit manufacturers, especially kit an kilo manufacturers, are concerned with selling more and more kits NOT with the brewer making the best beer possible. They know that if they say in the instructions to wait, they may loose some people to hobbies that have more instant gratification.

They also know that the time that a homebrewer will remain buying kits is relatively short...they know that after a few kits, the brewer will either give up, start brewing extract batches from recipes in books and places like this, formulate their own recipes, or go all grain...so they want to sell as many kits as possible to the new brewer before he moves on to bigger and better things.

SO they know that even their beer will taste better if you leave it longer...but they know that in the time you wait you will be reading and learning and be less likely to buy another kit...They can sell three or four kits to you if you follow their directions in the same time frame that listening to us and waiting a month and bottle conditioning for another 3-4 weeks.

But Even Palmer says you should wait....

Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

 

[KillerGX]

Thank you Revvy..

So one last question...

So if I reach my target FG of 1.011 at day 7....should I still give it a couple of days to relax in the primary before racking.... or should I rack as soon as I reach my FG of 1.011

I like the idea of waiting for a few more days than what my recipe says. Ill wait as long as I have to, if it will give me a better beer.

 

[Revvy]

Thank you Revvy..

So one last question...

So if I reach my target FG of 1.011 at day 7....should I still give it a couple of days to relax in the primary before racking.... or should I rack as soon as I reach my FG of 1.011

I like the idea of waiting for a few more days than what my recipe says. Ill wait as long as I have to, if it will give me a better beer.

Yes, you wait..This isn't about waiting for the beer to reach terminal graivty, it's about letting the yeasts clean up all the messes they made while getting your beer to terminal gravity. All those things that could lead to off flavors. You leave the beer in contact with the yeast.

These days leaving my beers in primary for a month I only take 2 gravity reading, one on yeast pitch day and 1 month later on bottling day, that's it.

Even when racking to secondary I wait 14 days, more than likely fermentation was complete in a week, but again I am giving the yeast time to clean up after themselves.

 

[KillerGX]

Yes, you wait..This isn't about waiting for the beer to reach terminal graivty, it's about letting the yeasts clean up all the messes they made while getting your beer to terminal gravity. All those things that could lead to off flavors. You leave the beer in contact with the yeast.

These days leaving my beers in primary for a month I only take 2 gravity reading, one on yeast pitch day and 1 month later on bottling day, that's it.

Even when racking to secondary I wait 14 days, more than likely fermentation was complete in a week, but again I am giving the yeast time to clean up after themselves.

ahhhh ok... interesting.. I thought you rack once FG was attained.

thank you for your advice... I will follow it.

 

[Revvy]

ahhhh ok... interesting.. I thought you rack once FG was attained.

thank you for your advice... I will follow it.

Well, there's a lot of ways to do things....You could rack immedietly, I just prefer prolonging yeast contact as much as possible, I find that it improves my beers immensely to do so.

 

[n8ms]

Excellent discussion here! Revvy, you inspire confidence. I am going to wait two weeks before racking my current brew to a secondary.

 

[Revvy]

Excellent discussion here! Revvy, you inspire confidence. I am going to wait two weeks before racking my current brew to a secondary.

Well hopefully one day you'll get really brave, skip secondary and leave it in primary for a month.

 

[churdbird]

Has anybody came across when actuall autolysis sets in? It's most peoples concern and reason to rack to the secondary but I have yet to see or read at what point is happens.
Im sure it's based on yeast health, temp, and time. So, each batch is different, but are we looking at 7 days? 12? 14? 30 days?
Just currious?

 

[Revvy]

Has anybody came across when actuall autolysis sets in? It's most peoples concern and reason to rack to the secondary but I have yet to see or read at what point is happens.
Im sure it's based on yeast health, temp, and time. So, each batch is different, but are we looking at 7 days? 12? 14? 30 days?
Just currious?

People have successfully left their beers in primary for up to 6 months without any sign of autolysis. That's one of the reasons it's been pretty much disproved as nothing but a bogeyman to the homebrewer.

New brewers tend to be too busy cleaning up from crapping their pants after reading palmers section on it in HTB to actually notice his final comments on the subject

John Palmer

As a final note on this subject, I should mention that by brewing with healthy yeast in a well-prepared wort, many experienced brewers, myself included, have been able to leave a beer in the primary fermenter for several months without any evidence of autolysis.

Even when Palmer is talking about it, he's talking about it in terms of LAGERS not ales. Most people get so freaked out about in reading Palmer, that they don't notice it is in the Lager chapter, nor do they notice the caveat at the end of the section that I posted above.

I still believe that POSSIBLY autolysis WAS a concern to homebrewers 20-30 years ago, when the yeast came in dry cakes, of dubious heritage and came across from where homebrewing was legalized in the hot cargo holds of ships and may have sat for months in terrible conditioned...In other words was unhealthy to begin with.

And therefore may have crapped out and made for nastiness, (and also was prone to stick fermentation as well.) and tales of it just continued to perpetuate over time, even though yeasts are much more healthy and fresh, and more is understood about them nowaday....people gravitate to the negative and fear and still perpetuate those worries...over and over and over....

And I still maintain that as much as I like Palmer, he contributed to the hysteria.....I mean noone but me seems to notice that that section on the scary autolysis appears in the chapter on lagering. He is not talking about it with ales...or beers in general..just lagers..because flaws are more perceptable in lagers...since in essence most commercial lagers are tasteless...anything would stand out..

So really, you have little to worry about in terms of autloysis, especially in those timeframes you are asking about.

DO you think we'd repeatedly leaving our beers in primary for a month, if it were really an issue? Don't you think we'd be saying move your beer, rather than saying that we have found our beers actually better being left in an extended primary in contact with the yeast?

 

[bigjoe]

Depends on style and gravity. I leave it on the yeast for a couple of weeks after I;m sure fermentation has finished with most run of the mill 1.050-1.060 ales I do.

I don't have experience with American Wheat beers, but m Bavarian Hefeweissen I brew I've drunk 8 dats after it went into the fermenter. Its a hood beer when very young. Most of my other ales are terrible that young. But when the other ales are getting to be ther best the Hefe is on it way out. Losing a lot of flavor, but still very good.

I brewed a Tripel at the end of the summer last year that I left in the carboy for a month and a half and transfered to a corny keg to condition for 3 more months. Still not ready yet, but its a high gravity beer.

 

[johnnybrew]

Gonna stir the pot!

Below is an actual thread with John Palmer from yesterday. Take it as you like.

===========

On Mar 23, 2010, at 11:55 PM, John Palmer wrote:

Hi John,

You don't need to secondary unless you are brewing with fruit added after the initial fermentation, or souring the beer after the initial fermentation. Your secondary fermentation, in other words the conditioning of the beer, the refinement of flavors, should be occuring in the primary fermenter during the late first week or the second week of the fermentation.

A secondary USED to be recommended all the time to get the beer off the yeast before they autolyzed, but today, homebrewers are more aware of yeast health, they are the sickly things rising from dry yeast packets that they used to be and a transfer off the yeast after the first week is no longer required.

Okay? Good Brewing,

John


On Mar 23, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Johnnybrew wrote:

John,

I am CERTAIN you have gotten this question before. Is there a clear definitive answer? The blogs and boards are rife with opinions and no one has any data (here's an example: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/does-everyone-rack-secondary-82693/). I have your 2006 edition of How to Brew and have read it from cover to cover. It's 2010... do you have any new data or thoughts?

Thanks for any input and thanks for the education. Your book is great.

Regards,

John M

 

[user 34267]

All I know is I just tried, for the first time, doing an IPA entirely in a primary fermenter. Dry hopping and everything.

~12 days, then 10 days for dry hopping. 12 days bottle conditioning so far and it's carbonated and delicious - I expect it to be even more delicious in a couple weeks when the last of the green flavors have faded.

Makes for a more compact brewing setup, less risk of contamination, less mess and I can invest that time into new brews rather than fussing with my existing ones. Revvy's posts on the subject were no small influence in my decision to do away with secondary for most brews - so thanks, Revvy!

 

[johnnybrew]

... Revvy's posts on the subject were no small influence in my decision to do away with secondary for most brews - so thanks, Revvy!

Revvy Schmevvy. What does he know? He only has 20K posts

 

[andrew300]

I usually get a lot of hop trub and break material into the primary. Sometimes on purpose and sometimes accidentally. If I have a lot of this material in the primary, is it still advised to leave the beer on it for a long period of time?

 

[Revvy]

I usually get a lot of hop trub and break material into the primary. Sometimes on purpose and sometimes accidentally. If I have a lot of this material in the primary, is it still advised to leave the beer on it for a long period of time?

I am a confirmed dumper, everything goes in my primary, and after a month it has compressed so much that it is left behind.

 

[Yambor44]

I cant argue with someone with 17k posts...

D-A-M-N Revy! You had 17k post on January 9th and now your over 20K???

 

[johnnybrew]

I usually get a lot of hop trub and break material into the primary. Sometimes on purpose and sometimes accidentally. If I have a lot of this material in the primary, is it still advised to leave the beer on it for a long period of time?

From http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.4/barchet.html

Hot Trub: Formation and Removal

by Ron Barchet

Republished from BrewingTechniques' November/December 1993.

Hot trub, the protein precipitate formed during the boil, can impede fermentation and produce undesirable qualities in the finished beer. Simple, effective methods allow professional and home brewers to remove this unwanted by-product.
:
:
:
Removing hot trub is essential to produce a quality beer. A well-engineered whirlpool or hop back provides an inexpensive, effective separation method.

For me, after my boil, I cool it down as quickly as possible with an ice bath and a wort chiller. I gently stir the wort several times to ensure even cooling and get a vortex going. The vortex will move the majority of the trub and other particulate matter to the center. Then, when I siphon, I put my racking cane in the corner of my boil pot to reduce pulling any trub up into my carboy. The less trub the better.

 

[kyles609]

I like using a secondary so I am not rushed to bottle at any point. My question is. When you guys use a secondary and give it a little extra time, do you notice the time to carbonate is much longer? Two batches I've done have taken about 3 times as long as when I go straight from the primary. I assume this is because more yeast is dropping out in the secondary, but each time my carbonation isn't nearly as high as my other batches. For now I'm just using the same amount of priming sugar per batch.

Thanks

 

[passedpawn]

No 2nd for me (except when racking onto fruit).

Also, I bottle off the primary about 7-10 days for an ale. 14 days lager. Up the establishment.

 

[hoppheadIPA]

I secondary all the time, unless it's already in use. I like the fact that it gets a week or 2 more of aging before I bottle. It always imporves taste

 

[Revvy]

My question is. When you guys use a secondary and give it a little extra time, do you notice the time to carbonate is much longer? Two batches I've done have taken about 3 times as long as when I go straight from the primary. I assume this is because more yeast is dropping out in the secondary, but each time my carbonation isn't nearly as high as my other batches. For now I'm just using the same amount of priming sugar per batch.

Thanks

No...the time it takes to carbonate has nothing to do with the length of time you primary or secondary. Time to carbonate has to do with the gravity of the beer and the temp you are attempting to carb at, nothing else. Length of time in primary and/or secondary MAY influence how long it takes for a beer to condition- how long to lose it's green taste....but has nothing to do with how long the yeast in a bottle will take to eat the priming sugar you feed it, fill the headspace on a bottle, max out the headspace and force itself into solution and carbonate. A 10.60 beer will tale approximately 3 weeks at 70 degrees to carbonate, regardless of if it sat 4 weeks in primary, 2 weeks in primary and 2 in secondary, or whatever the combination you throw at it.

If your beer is taking longer, then you need to look at the gravities and the temps you are storing at, nothing else.

 

[Steelers77]

I only goto secondary when I am making something big. Since I started kegging primary, dryhop(if needed) then keg. I love kegging!

 

[BrewMcGoo]

if ive no way to crash cool, will my beer still be ok in the primary for 2-4 weeks? wouldnt fermentation be done by then anyway?

 

[Revvy]

if ive no way to crash cool, will my beer still be ok in the primary for 2-4 weeks? wouldnt fermentation be done by then anyway?

I never crash cool and I leave my beer in primary for a month minimum. Crash cooling really has nothing to do with long primaries/no secondaries.

 

[johnnybrew]

if ive no way to crash cool, will my beer still be ok in the primary for 2-4 weeks? wouldnt fermentation be done by then anyway?

You don't need to cold crash. Doing so will only clear the beer up. Letting your brew sit for 2-4 weeks in the primary is perfect. Less time for smaller beers and more time for bigger ones. If you bottle you will essentially cold crash when you chill your beer for serving. Just pour it gently and you will never have to worry about getting any yeast in your glass.

 

[Stankonia]

I have an IPA in primary right now that I'm going to dry hop with 1oz of hops. Tomorrow will be 7 days since it was brewed. I am still deciding on whether to dry hop in secondary or just do it in primary.

Any tips or tricks to dry hopping in primary as opposed to secondary? I was thinking about this Thursday or Friday (10-11 days of fermentation) for throwing the hops in the primary for 5-7 days before bottling.

 

[TotemWolf]

Yes for most brews, but only because I want the yeast and prefer it as 'fresh' as ever. Otherwise, when I not going to harvest the yeast, I just use the primary

As far as cold crashing, I don't see the need. For me anyway.

You should brew the way the works best for you.

 

[jacobmarley]

I always do. I like to do it for clarity. Ill filter out the sludge that settles on the bottom. I think its personal preference.