Does a secondary really cut down bottle sediment?

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Beer-Baron

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Hello,

I've brewed 3 batches and I've only ever used a primary for 3 weeks and then bottle for 3 weeks.

I know I'll never be able to eliminate bottle sediment on bottle conditioned beer, but if I did secondary the beer, would that help? Or does my beer just drop all the yeast in the same amount of time anyway?

Thanks
 
A secondary is basically for clearing...it allows time for the yeast to fall out.

If you don't secondary all that yeast will end up as sediment in your bottles.

If you do that's just more yeast you won't have in the bottle. ;)
 
i dont entirely agree. of cours i may be wrong in my assumptions. the yeast is going to flocculate out at the same rate no matter if its in the primary or secondary. there is some outdated info out there that says if you lave an ale on the yeast for to long the yeast will go through autolysis. this is untrue. lagers are a different story they will pick up autolysis.

so, leaving your beer in the primary for 5 weeks wont hurt the beer and the yeast will flocculate out the same as if you left it in the primary for 2 then secondary for 3. this is especially true for high flocculating yeast. i left a stout in the primary for 6 weeks because i couldn't get around to bottling. right now there is practically no yeast in the bottles.
 
I guess for my next batch I will try a secondary and see if that helps!

Anyone else wanna chime in?
 
I think any time you transfer it off of yeast it reduces the chance of sediment you can get into the bottles. Think about it, if there is a 1 inch yeast bed at the bottom then you have a greater chance of sediment than if there was a 1/4 inch yeast bed. It's logical enough. I do not secondary, I'm perfectly happy with a long primary. I agree with TipsyDragon in that time is what helps flocculate...cold crashing helps too lol
 
It works I have proof. My bottles have a very thin layer of sediment in them that does not come out when pouring every last drop of beer into the glass. It has been commented on by all my brewing friends about how sediment free my beer is. I also follow my own made up of educated guess rule of 2/1/3 primary/secondary/bottle. Take it or leave it but until it stops working for me I will continue.
 
A secondary allows more yeast to floc out. I secondary my wine and sometimes a third time for this very reason. I rarely do this with beer, I don't mind cloudy beer, but I can't get it darn clear with a primary.
 
Ehh, 1/16th inch of sediment or 1/4 inch of sediment. As long as the beer tastes good!!
3 weeks primary, 2-3 weeks in the bottle and my beers always turn out fine!
 
I mainly use a secondary when I'm too busy to bottle but want to get another brew going. I will always give my beers a minimum of one week in the primary, but no more than 4. I've always found though that when(if) I go to secondary my beer, a lot more yeast will immediately crash out, and I definitely didn't suck all that up from the primary. I just did a Belgian trippel and there was a good inch of trub. Hours after siphoning it to a secondary, another 1/8" or so dropped out...and that thing was sitting in the primary for a good month.

Also, if you keg it's not a big deal either way. You're going to get that layer of yeast sucked up in the first glass anyhow. You just don't want to leave that beer sitting in the primary for TOO long as to prevent autolysis(?), though I think that takes a good long while before occuring.
 
To clear a few things up:

Secondaries are used for clearing and bulk aging. As TheMan said, it is much easier to avoid any trub when there is only a small amount present, as in a secondary. The yeast will settle at the same rate in a primary or a secondary. It will floculate when it is done doing what it is doing. A secondary definitely can result in a clearer beer with less sediment in the bottle. YOu can still get very clear beer with a primary only though.

The amount of trub in the bottom of the fermentor has no impact on the rate at which suspended yeast will settle out. For trub, only the surface is really exposed to the beer and might impact floculation and the surface area is the same whether 1/8" or 1" of trub.

From a technical (biological) point of view, autolysis begins as soon as the logorithmic phase of growth stops (really active fermentation ends). This is scientific fact. HOWEVER, what is debatable is the influence this has on flavor. If the beer is well cared for, the impact is minimal (varies with style, and your taste buds). The nasty "Autolysis" that every talks about is from when the beer is poorly mishandled and is probably more associated with an infection and the uninvited guest feeding on the dead yeast.

One of the biggest things your can do for a clear beer is to make sure the beer has reached it's FG before you bottle. If it hasn't, then the yeast will consume the sugars left, plus what you added for bottling, and result in more sediment
 
The yeast dont know if it is a primary or a secondary container. As mentioned before it is just the amount of time spent waiting. If you dont want to use a clearing tank just leave it in the primary for that extra length of time that you would have had it sit in secondary. Another thing to think about is, the more you transfer your beer, the more likely you might pick up an infection somewhere. Personally I use a secondary, but I am fairly confident in my sanitizing process. The first time I used a secondary, I was surprised by the amount of trub in the bottom and thought to myself, if I hadn't put it in secondary, this would all be in my bottles... then I realized it doesnt matter it is all about giving it the time to settle out.
 
My first beer was near brilliantly clear simply using Irish moss at the end of the boil. No secondary, no cold crash, chilled my first few bottles at fridge temp for 30 minutes or so.

My logic would be what some have mentioned before, the yeast don't know whether they are in a primary or secondary fermentation vessel. When they fall out, they fall out. Wouldn't just as much yeast would fall out after 4 weeks in the primary vs 2 primary, 2 secondary - if not less so since you would likely be disturbing some yeast during the transfer to secondary? It makes sense to me.

In brief, I'd leave in primary until FG is reached, cold crash, bottle. I feel secondary is pointless.
 
Search for "Revvy Autolysis"

Originally Posted by John Palmer


Tom from Michigan asks:
I have a few questions about secondary fermentations. I've read both pros and cons for 2nd fermentations and it is driving me crazy what to do. One, are they necessary for lower Gravity beers?
Two, what is the dividing line between low gravity and high gravity beers? Is it 1.060 and higher?
Three, I have an American Brown Ale in the primary right now, a SG of 1.058, Should I secondary ferment this or not?
Your advice is appreciated, thanks for all you do!

Allen from New York asks:
John, please talk about why or why not you would NOT use a secondary fermenter (bright tank?) and why or why not a primary only fermentation is a good idea. In other words, give some clarification or reason why primary only is fine, versus the old theory of primary then secondary normal gravity ale fermentations.

Palmer answers:
These are good questions – When and why would you need to use a secondary fermenter? First some background – I used to recommend racking a beer to a secondary fermenter. My recommendation was based on the premise that (20 years ago) larger (higher gravity) beers took longer to ferment completely, and that getting the beer off the yeast reduced the risk of yeast autolysis (ie., meaty or rubbery off-flavors) and it allowed more time for flocculation and clarification, reducing the amount of yeast and trub carryover to the bottle. Twenty years ago, a homebrewed beer typically had better flavor, or perhaps less risk of off-flavors, if it was racked off the trub and clarified before bottling. Today that is not the case.

The risk inherent to any beer transfer, whether it is fermenter-to-fermenter or fermenter-to-bottles, is oxidation and staling. Any oxygen exposure after fermentation will lead to staling, and the more exposure, and the warmer the storage temperature, the faster the beer will go stale.

Racking to a secondary fermenter used to be recommended because staling was simply a fact of life – like death and taxes. But the risk of autolysis was real and worth avoiding – like cholera. In other words, you know you are going to die eventually, but death by cholera is worth avoiding.

But then modern medicine appeared, or in our case, better yeast and better yeast-handling information. Suddenly, death by autolysis is rare for a beer because of two factors: the freshness and health of the yeast being pitched has drastically improved, and proper pitching rates are better understood. The yeast no longer drop dead and burst like Mr. Creosote from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life when fermentation is complete – they are able to hibernate and wait for the next fermentation to come around. The beer has time to clarify in the primary fermenter without generating off-flavors. With autolysis no longer a concern, staling becomes the main problem. The shelf life of a beer can be greatly enhanced by avoiding oxygen exposure and storing the beer cold (after it has had time to carbonate).

Therefore I, and Jamil and White Labs and Wyeast Labs, do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring. Racking to prevent autolysis is not necessary, and therefore the risk of oxidation is completely avoidable. Even lagers do not require racking to a second fermenter before lagering. With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl. The real purpose of lagering a beer is to use the colder temperatures to encourage the yeast to flocculate and promote the precipitation and sedimentation of microparticles and haze.

So, the new rule of thumb: don’t rack a beer to a secondary, ever, unless you are going to conduct a secondary fermentation.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/did-i-transfer-secondary-too-soon-158858/index3.html is the thread with full response from Revvy. I just C&P the John Palmer quote.
 
Wow what a post. !! I won't quote it for the same reason.
As for the subject, I was wondering when Revvys name was going to pop up. About time. Set em straight.
 
i put my secondary into my kegerator for 24 hours to clear it up even more, then i bottle. noticed a big difference even from doing just a secondary without chilling it.
 
I have to move my fermentor upstairs. It is impossible not to disturb the yeast. If I have a big trub of yeast, more gets disturbed. Therefore, more yeast gets racked off into my keg. If I secondary, then when I move the secondary, there is significantly less of a trub, less to disturb, and less yeast in my keg when I rack it.
 
I see no difference in 2 weeks primary, two weeks secondary to 4 weeks primary and no secondary. It all adds up to 4 weeks. Plus when you bottle with priming sugar, there is still suspended yeast. No matter how many times you rack there will still be suspended yeast during the carbonating process that will settle out. After 3-4 weeks of carbonating the yeast on the bottom of the bottles will stay there while pouring gently producing a nice clear beer.
I see no reason to keep racking your beer to clear it up when there is yeast still in suspension which is needed to carbonate it.

NRS
 
I believe it is as much a matter of HOW YOU RACK THE BEER as it is secondary or not. If you leave a beer in primary for 4 weeks, or primary 2 and secondary 2 I believe there will be the exact same amount of yeast fallout. The difference is how you get the beer off of the yeast cake. If you carefully lower the racking cane down into the beer and keep it off of the bottom then it will make little to no difference other than leaving a bit more beer behind. If in the other hand you do like I do and just jam the racking cane right down into the trub, then you are gonna get some trub into your bottles only doing a long primary. That is why I secondary( that and my 5 gallon carboys will fit in the cooler to cold crash) I rack to secondary then let that set in cold crash for a few days. Then again I put the cane tip right on the bottom but there is only a thin dusting of trub usually so That allows me to rack into the bottling bucket and leave nearly all of the trub behind yet still get all but a thimble full or so of the beer.
 
DO you guys realize that Andymoff, the guy who bumped this thread asked how to ask a question hasn't come back? nor has actually asked a question? You guys have all been having a conversation with someone who isn't around and never asked a question to begin with. ;)

More than likely it was a spammer who zombified the thread, and their link got blocked by the filter....So you're actually having a conversation with a bot who doesn't care.
 
DO you guys realize that Andymoff, the guy who bumped this thread asked how to ask a question hasn't come back? nor has actually asked a question? You guys have all been having a conversation with someone who isn't around and never asked a question to begin with. ;)

More than likely it was a spammer who zombified the thread, and their link got blocked by the filter....So you're actually having a conversation with a bot who doesn't care.

so I wasted a good response....damned spammers and bots
 
awww troll got me :mad: oh well. I'm sure some newbie read this and learned something new anyway.
 
I've fermented lagers at 54F and left them in the fermenters for 4 weeks before transferring them to secondaries to cold lager for another 4 weeks before bottling. I did that to keep the beer clean and reduce the trub that went into the bottles.
 
DO you guys realize that Andymoff, the guy who bumped this thread asked how to ask a question hasn't come back? nor has actually asked a question? You guys have all been having a conversation with someone who isn't around and never asked a question to begin with. ;)

More than likely it was a spammer who zombified the thread, and their link got blocked by the filter....So you're actually having a conversation with a bot who doesn't care.

I got a good laugh after seeing this post, great observation Revvy:rockin:
 
I like secondary, but for me it is more a matter of clean racking.

Just (an hour ago) kegged an oatmeal / chocolate stout. I did secondary because I could lay the racking cane on the turb while moving from primary to secondary and not worry about picking up a little. It just makes the second rack to the keg very clean.
 
Love the quote:

'Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour, teach him to brew beer and he'll waste a lifetime'.
 
No! No difference at all. I put my beer in the secondary and cleared it. When I racked it then primed it then put it in bottles to carb up there was still some
Sediment from
Carbonation. Remember, I said, I put the primed beer into bottles in a clear state and it still developed sediment after and during carbonation. It was an American pale ale.
 

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