Do we have an abnormal fear of contamination?

[Crucial-BBQ]

Prior to living in Boston, I resided in Maine for a few years. While there, I grew to love beers in which Alan Pugsley lent a hand in creating (Shipyard, Geary's, Gritty's, just to name a few). For those of you not familiar, Pugsley is a champion of Ringwood yeast here in the states, albeit primarily in/with Maine breweries.

So, being a fan of this "style", I looked into using Ringwood with my own homebrews and found that this yeast loves open fermentation. Going through many posts on various homebrew forums, one of the main comments to using Ringwood, outside of the diacetyl flavor, was that many, most, were not going to subject their beer to such treatment (said in Not in my backyard! tone). The thing is, many of our favorite beer styles either began with an open fermentation back in the day, or they are still used to this day. Many Belgian, Bavarian, and English brewers practice open fermentation to this day.

Now, while some breweries use methods to control contamination (air filters, temp control of fermentor, etc.), many still don't. While the brewmasters at these breweries would more than likely through a fit if they found contamination (word used lightly), the truth is they don't find any more contamination than breweries that practice a closed system of brewing.

Which got me thinking. As homebrewers, one of the very first things we learn is to sanitize, sanitize, and sanitize some more. The idea of keeping everything sanitized has been beat into our heads since day one. In the beginning, I made sure that anything and everything that touched, or even got close to, my wort, etc. was as clean as could possibly be, however, over the years, I have become lax in my sanitation. Not lazy, mind you, just not OCD about it.

I have touched things with my hands that came into direct contact with the wort prior to fermenting. I have "sanitized" items by simply rinsing them under hot tap water amongst other things that might make some of you cringe. Heck, probably the only thing I haven't done is use my mouth to siphon wort into a fermentor. Yet, over the ten years I've been homebrewing, I have only encountered contamination once, and I attribute that to a faulty seal around the spigot/valve on the fermentor (bacteria/yeast found the sweet food leaking out and crept into the bucket through the space in the leak).

Perhaps it is because I always brew indoors, in an inclosed area. And perhaps I have experienced contamination on other occasions and didn't realize it (only seen mold/growth on top once as mentioned above; never had any other specific signs--off flavors, odors, etc.). Or perhaps I have just been lucky?

Anyways, I am not suggesting that homebrewers give up any method of sanitization, I am just curious if as a whole, we are being overly paranoid?

 

[Double_D]

I think it's a huge superstition among homebrewers that everything has to be operating room clean. We all start there and I think it's beat into us so we can learn the fundamentals and then apply them to our process as needed. I understand what you're saying completely. I do all of my work in the garage with the door up and a fan running and I've put every unsanitized utensil and probably some extra with the exception of actually putting my feet in it and not had a more than one bad batch. I should add that it's before I boil I put the unsanitized stuff in not after. After the boil it's straight into the fermentor, don't stop at go and don't collect your hundred dollars just get in there.

The batch that was bad happened when I moved to my new house in the first batch I did. I let everyone taste it as it was fermenting because I was so excited and some wild yeast got in there. It went sour but had no character so I let it go.

I'm not saying I'm a slob with it. I'm a chef and I have an understanding of food safety that I can apply to my brewing. From sanitation for food handling to sanitation for beer is a short jump.

I do siphon by mouth though. But only enough to get the wort flowing. It touches never my lips until it's fermented.

 

[Token]

Anyways, I am not suggesting that homebrewers give up any method of sanitization, I am just curious if as a whole, we are being overly paranoid?

No.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

If being extra paranoid means doing everything I can do to make sure I have the cleanest product I can produce than, dernit, I'm extra paranoid.

 

[Nateo]

Try making six consecutive batches of gushers, then your opinion of contamination may change. This happened to me around my 30th batch or so, once I felt like I had a good handle on brewing practice and didn't REALLY need to do all that "extra" sanitizing. Boy was I wrong.

In traditional open breweries, they have rooms dedicated to fermenting. Even if they're not sealed and filtered, there is still a ton more yeast everywhere than other bugs. As long as the yeast outnumber the other bugs by a good margin, you're reasonably safe. In a typical home with a few 5 gallon batches, there are probably a lot more baddies than yeasties.

 

[Crucial-BBQ]

If being extra paranoid means doing everything I can do to make sure I have the cleanest product I can produce than, dernit, I'm extra paranoid.

I hear what you are saying. I want the cleanest product, too.

Bacteria and yeast have optimal growth environments (pH, food source, oxygen level, temperature, etc.). Change one or more factors and what-ever landed in your beer may not survive for long. It is impossible to escape bacteria and yeast. You just can't do it. As long as they don't metabolize and grow colonies, they will not produce any off flavors, which really is the main concern with contamination, right?

Try making six consecutive batches of gushers, then your opinion of contamination may change. This happened to me around my 30th batch or so, once I felt like I had a good handle on brewing practice and didn't REALLY need to do all that "extra" sanitizing. Boy was I wrong.

In traditional open breweries, they have rooms dedicated to fermenting. Even if they're not sealed and filtered, there is still a ton more yeast everywhere than other bugs. As long as the yeast outnumber the other bugs by a good margin, you're reasonably safe. In a typical home with a few 5 gallon batches, there are probably a lot more baddies than yeasties.

I've had gushers in the past (bottle conditioned) that I attribute to using too much priming sugar. I attribute it to the priming sugar as that was the time when I was meticulous with sanitizing. I found the gushing could be controlled if the beer was placed into the freezer for a little bit prior to opening, and the beer itself tasted fine.

Like I mentioned in my OP, perhaps I have produced contaminated batches and just not known it.

I am not criticizing any particular practice, just curious if as a "culture" we are a tad over-the-top with our efforts to keep everything sparkling clean.

 

[EdWort]

Nothing wrong about being anal retentive about sanitation when it comes to making beer.

I've made it a strong habit that everything my beer touches after the boil has been sanitized with Starsan and so far, life is good.

 

[Wakadaka]

I have done several things that I shouldn't have done, and ended up with great beer, but I have been facing a 3 batch streak of infections now. My sanitation has been anal on all of my plastics, but more or less no different on anything else. I am attributing it to my tap water at this point.

It all depends on the person too. My first batch I was super careful about sanitation, but after that I just decided that this was a hobby, and something I do for fun. I am going to do my best to make sure I don't get an infection, but if its not fun and becomes a drag then I am going to take my chances and cut back on the protection a bit.

And that last sentence has nothing to do with sexual intercourse, even though it sounds like it could

 

[OntarioBeerKegs]

I just keep a big pail of starzan solution around and toss anything without batteries in all day when I brew. Fish it out when I need it. Really cuts down my time worrying about sanitation.

 

[lmerg]

I wasn't before. I am becoming more paranoid now: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/sanitation-checklist-help-255946/

 

[Crucial-BBQ]

Nothing wrong about being anal retentive about sanitation when it comes to making beer.

Not if it suits you well. I am not arguing the need to sanitize, just questioning the "fear" and concern that most seem to have.

My guess is that being anal with sanitizing is a way for homebrewers to have more control over their final product each time, at least in the early days perhaps, but it seems as if many new to the game simply do it to extremes because they are told to.

There is an analogy to office policy that I'd like to use here:

Five monkeys are in a cage. hanging from the center of the cage is a bunch of bananas, and below the bananas is a ladder leading up to them.

One monkey begins to climb the ladder, and before he could reach the bananas, someone watching on the outside of the cage hoses the monkeys down. One monkey is removed from the cage, and a new monkey replaced.

The new monkey attempts to go for the bananas, but the the other four monkeys remember the hose treatment they got last time a monkey climbed the ladder. So, the other four monkeys freak out and stop the new monkey from climbing the ladder.

Another monkey is removed and replaced with a new monkey, and like the previous new monkey, this one attempts to climb the ladder and is met with the same fate.

This is repeated until all five original monkeys have been replaced with five new monkeys, none of which attempt to climb the ladder to get the bananas even though none of the new monkeys understands why the shouldn't.

The first thing homebrewers learn is that they can make beer at home. The second thing they learn is to sanitize everything. But, they do it because they are told to do it. Commercial breweries are anal about sanitation because they have to be. They want you to continue to buy their product, and at the very least, not sue them if you consume a "bad" batch. My perspective is that sanitation is reserved to primarily protect the flavor and characteristics of a particular style. As pointed out, you wouldn't want an IPA to taste like a Belgian. Er, maybe you do? Sounds interesting.

Ask many homebrewers why they sanitize, and they will give you a simple to prevent contamination type of answer. Sure, unless you are trying to contaminate your beer intentionally, I think it is safe to say that everyone wants to prevent contamination.

Yet, delve deeper into the question and you'll find them scratching their heads. So, what would happen if you got a wild yeast or bacteria? Like I said, it is ingrained into the minds of young homebrewers.

And, there is a difference between sanitation and sterilization. You can't sterilize your equipment. It would prove difficult. Sanitation is simply killing some bacteria, not all, and if you truly want to sanitize your equipment, you would use more than one type of sanitizer as brand A might not get what brand B does.

I should also point out that you need to clean your equipment first before you can sanitize it, otherwise sanitation won't be properly utilized. Which makes being anal kind of moot, doesn't it?

If what you do works for you, that is cool. Like I said, I am not debating the need to clean/sanitize our equipment. Based on my experience, it has been shown that it is okay to relax a bit from time to time as long as what you do works for you and you are happy with the results.

 

[djt17]

My first few batches I was very anal about sanitation; now, after 36 batches, I find my self being much more lax & much less fearful about contamination. I still sanitize everything post boil with StarSan, but I don't worry about it so much. I too have had unsantized fingers, wisks, etc that touched the wort accidently; but, I RDWHAHB.

 

[iasquith]

I wouldn't say my fear is abnormal, and yes, I do have fear of losing a whole 5 gallons as, as happened 8 times in the past. Inicialy I lost quite a few to poorly cleaned bottles,spigot on fermenter and such like until i got my cleaning sytem dialed in and then after a couple of years I got sloppy again and thought it would'nt matter , well it did, and it did catch up with me( 5 gallons of cidery\ band aid gusher horror)
I cleanse\sanitize the hell out of everything that touches the post boiled wort and even then i only relax when I'm transfering to secondary and can smell\taste its ok..
I would rather carry on being paranoid, than lose one more day of work \pleasure \expectation ... just my ten cents .....

 

[samc]

I don't fear it at all. But the difference between being anal and lazy is an extra couple of minutes in a brew day. So why wouldn't you spend a minute spraying down your fermenter with StarSan or similar. I can do my entire sanitation in the time it took you to write your post about monkeys.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

I wouldn't say my fear is abnormal, and yes, I do have fear of losing a whole 5 gallons as, as happened 8 times in the past.

GOO!!! I've dumped only one entire batch in my 5 years of homebrewing at that one was justifiable.

There are soooo few things that can't be fixed with time. I'd be willing to bet 7-8 of those batches would have been fine if you left them alone for 6 months.





Also, you "relax" when it comes to transfering to the secondary? Dude, it's not fermenting anymore so there aren't as many yeast cells or as much CO2 to keep out nasty bugs. I just hope you clean and sanitize the hell out of your secondary and racking hose.

 

[iasquith]

GOO!!! I've dumped only one entire batch in my 5 years of homebrewing at that one was justifiable.

There are soooo few things that can't be fixed with time. I'd be willing to bet 7-8 of those batches would have been fine if you left them alone for 6 months.





Also, you "relax" when it comes to transfering to the secondary? Dude, it's not fermenting anymore so there aren't as many yeast cells or as much CO2 to keep out nasty bugs. I just hope you clean and sanitize the hell out of your secondary and racking hose.

I couldn't even use the 'off' beer to cook with the taste was so dam horrible.

Yeah if it's good going to the secondary i figure the alcohol strong enough in there to ward off any nasties so i stop worrying, but by that i dont mean i take risks.

and oh yes the racking cane and tubing are cleansed with sodium percarbonate and iodofor before using.

maybe i should say that a recent loss was due to poor sanitation on a starter that carried through to the fermenter, but usually i dont have problems as long as i dont RELAX too much about it
:cross:

 

[HHP]

As Jamil will tell you, low bacterial load means you can age beers for years and they are just as good as the day you bottled. If you are properly treating your wort (aeration and pitch rate) and you keg ... you probably could get away with proverbial sanitation murder, because there is really no opportunity for bacteria to take a foothold. Sanitation becomes key when you want to age beers for a long time.

 

[Cosper123]

I hear what you are saying. I want the cleanest product, too.

Bacteria and yeast have optimal growth environments (pH, food source, oxygen level, temperature, etc.). Change one or more factors and what-ever landed in your beer may not survive for long. It is impossible to escape bacteria and yeast. You just can't do it. As long as they don't metabolize and grow colonies, they will not produce any off flavors, which really is the main concern with contamination, right?


I am not criticizing any particular practice, just curious if as a "culture" we are a tad over-the-top with our efforts to keep everything sparkling clean.

Yes they have an optimal growth environment but two things. Firstly, the range can be quite wide, by many degrees. Secondly, there are a ton of bacteria in each specific range. Thirdly, the overwheming majority of possible contaiminants in our environment reside in the home. And finally, they can create spores that can sit there for hundreds of thousands of years until that perfect environment occurs for them to start doing their dirty deeds.

It all comes down to chances. Many people live well into and past 100 having smoked for decades. I choose to not smoke, however...as it all comes down to chances. There are plenty of risks in life, and beer is a lot like life. You want to minimize the chance that the little bastards will get you. In the end, they could STILL contaminate regardless of how careful you are...just that one little spore sneaking in that floated up through the air.

In my brewing senarios a lot is riding on each and every batch of beer. I am married with multiple children. My brewing time is sacred. I invest a significant amount of valuable money and time into each and every brew, regardless of how cheap it may be. To lose a single batch...would be tragic!

 

[Cosper123]

And really with products like star-san it's so freaking easy and cheap why on earth wouldn't someone sanitize? I mean if you're THAT lazy why brew your own beer to begin with?

 

[wilserbrewer]

As Jamil will tell you, low bacterial load means you can age beers for years and they are just as good as the day you bottled. If you are properly treating your wort (aeration and pitch rate) and you keg ... you probably could get away with proverbial sanitation murder, because there is really no opportunity for bacteria to take a foothold. Sanitation becomes key when you want to age beers for a long time.

This!! I make all moderate gravity stuff that once fermented is usually kegged in two weeks, and in the cold keezer it goes. I would imagine if you are storing / aging your beer long term at warmer temps the potential for contaminations soars.

I get a kick out of the stories of fermenter go boom cause someone airlocked an active primary at high kruesen and the lock got plugged. Airlocking a primary is akin to making a bomb!

 

[lumpher]

people read posts that long?

 

[Token]

Nope.

 

[Token]

Seriously, I sanitize because I put a lot of heart into my beer. When I brew, I'm looking forward to something really yummy. I don't want to find out a month later that I messed up 5 gallons of beer because I couldn't be bothered to sanitize my stuff on brew day. Monkeys be damned; I'm sanitizing!!

 

[Nateo]

people read posts that long?

I just skimmed it.

 

[CheCulo]

This is from a very green noobie.....I'm going to be as careful as possible and be as clean and sterile as I can be, but.....the conditions in the 1600-1700's without all of the chemical cleaners we have today, and they were able to produce good beer, or they may have started the plague, hmmm...better do more research on that

 

[HHP]

This is from a very green noobie.....I'm going to be as careful as possible and be as clean and sterile as I can be, but.....the conditions in the 1600-1700's without all of the chemical cleaners we have today, and they were able to produce good beer, or they may have started the plague, hmmm...better do more research on that

Yeah, the conditions in beer make it impossible for known pathogens to grow, due to the acidity and alcohol content. Especially since the beers back then were fairly high gravity.

 

[Nateo]

I'm not convinced beer was actually "good" by today's standards back then. Just because people liked it doesn't mean it was good. There was a reason every got excited about the clean flavors of lagers. Lagers, at lower temperatures, probably had a lower bacterial load. I think most beers back in the day were at least a little sour, sometimes really sour.

http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml

 

[Reno_eNVy]

I'm not convinced beer was actually "good" by today's standards back then. Just because people liked it doesn't mean it was good. There was a reason every got excited about the clean flavors of lagers. Lagers, at lower temperatures, probably had a lower bacterial load. I think most beers back in the day were at least a little sour, sometimes really sour.

http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml

THIS! Randy Mosher mentions a lot of those things over and over in the historical seciton of his book.

 

[Cosper123]

This is from a very green noobie.....I'm going to be as careful as possible and be as clean and sterile as I can be, but.....the conditions in the 1600-1700's without all of the chemical cleaners we have today, and they were able to produce good beer, or they may have started the plague, hmmm...better do more research on that

And some people eat fried foods every meal and never develop heart disease or have MIs. Some people smoke for decades and never get cancer. Some people ride without their seatbelts their whole lives and live. Some people jump canyons with motercycles and live.

There's a reason they are called logical fallacies

Just because someone did something "bad" and it didn't blow up on them, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

 

[Crucial-BBQ]

I'm not convinced beer was actually "good" by today's standards back then. Just because people liked it doesn't mean it was good. There was a reason every got excited about the clean flavors of lagers. Lagers, at lower temperatures, probably had a lower bacterial load. I think most beers back in the day were at least a little sour, sometimes really sour.

http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml

Well, before sanitation and clean drinking water and all that, people drank beer back in the day because it was a lot safer than drinking the water from the local creek/pond/etc. Perhaps it was the boiling process, hop oils, or alcohol that killed/staved off bacteria, I dunno, but it safe to say that not many were getting dysentery from the beer supply.

 

[Nateo]

Well, before sanitation and clean drinking water and all that, people drank beer back in the day because it was a lot safer than drinking the water from the local creek/pond/etc. Perhaps it was the boiling process, hop oils, or alcohol that killed/staved off bacteria, I dunno, but it safe to say that not many were getting dysentery from the beer supply.

Sounds like a ringing endorsement. I can see Bud Light's new ad campaign: "Drink this, because it probably won't give you dysentery!"

 

[Token]

Sounds like a ringing endorsement. I can see Bud Light's new ad campaign: "Drink this, because it probably won't give you dysentery!"

HA!! I love it!!!!!!

 

[Yooper]

Yeah, the conditions in beer make it impossible for known pathogens to grow, due to the acidity and alcohol content. Especially since the beers back then were fairly high gravity.

I'm not convinced beer was actually "good" by today's standards back then. Just because people liked it doesn't mean it was good. There was a reason every got excited about the clean flavors of lagers. Lagers, at lower temperatures, probably had a lower bacterial load. I think most beers back in the day were at least a little sour, sometimes really sour.

http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml

Yeah, just because beer and wine was made and drank doesn't really mean it tasted great. It probably was sour, at least much of the time, but still very drinkable. That doesn't mean I want to emulate it in my brewery.

 

[evanmars]

Sounds like a ringing endorsement. I can see Bud Light's new ad campaign: "Drink this, because it probably won't give you dysentery!"

Just the NORMAL runs!

 

[scottland]

I find, so long as my fermentor is clean and santized, you can get away with a lot of mistakes between when your wort is cooled, and when you pitch your yeast. If you are pitching the proper amount of yeast, it's tough for anything else to take hold.

I am anal during packaging though. At this point we have very little yeast in suspension, and it's much easier for a bug to get in there.

 

[Homercidal]

Your monkey analogy is way off base. Most of us humans have a more advanced form of communication whereby we can tell the new monkey exactly what happened to the first one that caused the hose spray.

So, I'd like to think that by sharing experiences with each other, we can come up with some amount of concurrence on sanitation.

My take on it:

I sanitize pretty well, because StarSan is so freakin EASY to use.
I don't worry too much about stuff in the household air. I try not to leave fermenter open to grain dust, however.
I am extra careful about aging beers, as has been mentioned, as well as being extra careful about oxidation for bottled and aged beers. Not so much for my kegged beers, but then it's so easy to keg that it's usually not a problem.

I believe there is "contamination" and then there is "CONTAMINATION!". Lots of things floating around may contaminate our beer, but can't compete with the yeast, or won't do anything noticeable in our beer. Then there are things like acetobactor etc. that can sour the beer, or give it a vinegar-like flavor or worse.

Basically I usually don't sweat the unseen stuff, and really pay attention to cleaning and sanitizing is a simple matter of course that I don't have to think much about after that. If it ain't clean first, the odds of getting one of the bad boys in your beer goes way up.

 

[balto charlie]

The numbers of bacteria that can infect beer is small(if you infect with a dirty spoon) vs yeast huge numbers(if you use a decent size starter) so the yeast dominates the flavor profile. If the starter is infected then bacteria wins the race. I think the main source of infections in our beer is in our starters.
It is also important to sanitize to keep the bacteria numbers low in our breweries. If you do a decent job of sanitizing then bacteria numbers stay small for the long haul. If you start to get careless then bacteria numbers grow larger.
Do I worry about it....NO, I just sanitize.