Joe Formanek found a year old cream ale he'd used it on and entered it in NHC. Scored in excess of 40.
Do "professional" brewers consider brulosophy to be a load of bs?
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Joe Formanek found a year old cream ale he'd used it on and entered it in NHC. Scored in excess of 40.
Thanks for the info. Now I understand, with the aging thing Bartan B stabilizes/protects the more delicate of the hop aroma/flavor compounds from oxidization. Is that correct? 
Thanks for the info. Now I understand, with the aging thing Bartan B stabilizes/protects the more delicate of the hop aroma/flavor compounds from oxidization. Is that correct?
That's the hope and prayer.
MaryB
Well-Known Member
So extracting tannin while sparging is bad but adding Brewtan B(tannin) is good?????
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Depends on the tannin. Tannin is an umbrella term and some specific tannins are desirable depending on the type of beer being brewed. Aging beer in a wood barrel or on wood chips, you're getting tannins. Smoking malts to impart a smoky flavoring to beer, you're getting tannins.
Brewtan B is also heavier than most tannins so it settles out fast.
Thanks for the info. Now I understand, with the aging thing Bartan B stabilizes/protects the more delicate of the hop aroma/flavor compounds from oxidization. Is that correct?
Yes, and malt flavor/aroma
5312santacruz
New Member
Some are happy to share. As I was enjoying a glass of their Riot Punch last winter, guys at Alvarado Street Brewery (Monterey, CA) told me how they set fermentation temp to avoid Saison stall. I went home, gave it a try with WLP565, and the got a gravity drop to 1.002 in just 5 days.
I'm quite pleased to have a repeatable method.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Where are you guys/gals purchasing your Brewtan B? I just online searched the three LHBS's that are within 45 minutes of me, and came up with zilch.
Airmail from Australia. Exchange rate and shipping shockingly inexpensive.
Ibrew.com.au
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
I don't use it, i use polyclar730 plus, its a PVPP and a silica gel and appears to me to do the same thing.
It's just about to hit the homebrew market. Brewcraft is a homebrew wholesaler. If your shop does biz with Brewcraft, they can order it through them.
Polyclar is very different. It is only a clarifier. Brewtan B also interferes with oxidative reactions to give your beer a longer life.
Just finished brewing my Darth Lager with Brewtan-B. Now the hard part--waiting.
Brewed a Cal Common w/ it, now I'm in the mode of seeing if it preserves the flavor. Had an earlier batch I'd bottled; a buddy and I did a blind taste test between them. The newer batch with BtB was tastier; now to see if it holds over time.
BTW, I had done the Australia thing--ordered 8 packets and with shipping they ended up costing less than $10 each. I sold some on here for what I paid. Shipping was, IIRC, $15. Yeah, $15.
If anyone wants some, could do a "group buy" with them. I believe there's now someplace else in the US that sells it, a pound for something like $28. Can't recall offhand where that is. If I find it I'll post it.
Brewed a Cal Common w/ it, now I'm in the mode of seeing if it preserves the flavor. Had an earlier batch I'd bottled; a buddy and I did a blind taste test between them. The newer batch with BtB was tastier; now to see if it holds over time.
BTW, I had done the Australia thing--ordered 8 packets and with shipping they ended up costing less than $10 each. I sold some on here for what I paid. Shipping was, IIRC, $15. Yeah, $15.
If anyone wants some, could do a "group buy" with them. I believe there's now someplace else in the US that sells it, a pound for something like $28. Can't recall offhand where that is. If I find it I'll post it.
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
Sigh only a clarifier? I don't think so mate, it has a PVPP which absorbs the oxidizable and polymerizable fraction of the phenolic and a silica gel which traps proteins. Polyclar730+ a PVPP and a silica gel.
http://www.rjoenology.com/ft_en/Specific products/FT_SOF_PVPP_EN.pdf
Thanks for the correction.
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
5312santacruz
New Member
Interesting coincidence. After reading that very article, I tried the open fermentation thing, got frustrated and asked the Alvarado Street guy for advice. What works for me is:
1.) Big yeast starter - perhaps over-pitching a bit.
2.) 45 second blast of o2 through a stone (into 5gal)
3.) steady fermentation temp at 74F, with an airlock
Not that it matters, but I like to put my Belgians into 750ml "cork & cage" bottles and bottle condition to 4.5 volumes. I give it a little more "neutral" yeast with the sugar at bottling.
lol now I feel like like Nurse Ratched! Its all good
Who's Nurse Ratchet? Just kidding, but that did date you a bit.
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
Who's Nurse Ratchet? Just kidding, but that did date you a bit.
That's like not knowing who Hamlet was. Anyone not knowing about Ken Keysey, the Merry Prankskers, or "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" may want to set aside some of their reading time to learn more.
Denny you look like you may have been to a dead show or 10 :rockin::fro:
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
The Malt Miller in the UK (no affiliation) has it for £5 for 50g (ie US$6.72 for 1.76oz), which works out a bit cheaper than ibrew's AU$9.50 for the same amount, I don't know how shipping compares though.
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I heard that other bands do shows as well. Not interested
Brulosopher
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Are you presuming both beers in our lager ferm temp xBmts were estery? Ive been drinking lager for over a decade, judging for nearly 5 years, and I havent detected esters in any of my warm fermented lagers with 34/70.
Not that I expect it to convince you or anyone else of the validity of our experiments, but I generally collect data in my garage between around 11am and 2pm. Most people bring beer with them that we store in my fridge until after data is collected. When we take samples to meetings and such, we try to catch tasters before things get going just to ensure their palates arent obliterated.
But hey, if you dont buy it, try it! Its pretty easy.
Remember post #24.
I'm actually going to try to do an exbeeriment this weekend. I can't brew two batches in parallel, my system won't accommodate it. So I'm brewing two batches sequentially. I'll make a big starter and split between the two at the end of the day, after I'm sure the batches are at the same temperature.
I already have approached the organizer of our LHBC about doing a tasting at our November meeting; I'll get there early and be sure that people did the test before drinking anything else there.
I'm pretty confident I can do two equivalent batches sequentially changing only the variable being tested. We'll see. And we'll see if there's a difference, and if there's a difference between them in preference.
I won't say what the variable is, but I'll report back later.
Die_Beerery
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Says the man who has a Helles "clone" kit with Kolsch yeast.
Also for the record, I am a professional and I do consider Brulopshy B.S.
17 times, but I was paid to be there every time but once. I actually can't stand the music. Makes me an anomaly where I live!
I recently did my own "short and shoddy" experiment, although not really shoddy, just short. 30 min mash and 30 min boil. From water collection to cleanup was done just short of 3 hours and that's with wort chilling taking a long time with my cheap chiller and warm tap water.
Beer turned out really really good. Took some samples to my LHBS and no one reported off flavors or DMS.
Beer turned out really really good. Took some samples to my LHBS and no one reported off flavors or DMS.
I'm not presuming anything... My concern was that ester production was not actually a variable that was tested by your method.
You performed a triangle test (good, determine if the change is detectable) and you performed a preference test (good, but limited). You did not ask anything about ester production.
Conventional wisdom is that yeast generate more esters at higher temperatures. I would want to know whether your fermentation temperature experiment bore that out in practice at the homebrew scale. By only addressing whether the effect was detectable and preference, you didn't ask nor answer that question.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I really like Bruosophers tests.
He does a lot of tests of practices that people question....whats the problem with that.
If anyone else wants to go through the time and trouble and can do it better than have at it and post your results....otherwise....quit your bitchin
He does a lot of tests of practices that people question....whats the problem with that.
If anyone else wants to go through the time and trouble and can do it better than have at it and post your results....otherwise....quit your bitchin
I can appreciate that. The "bitchin'" as you describe it comes from those of us with research and measurement backgrounds who see areas the work could be improved.
Why? It has to do with whether we're getting "actionable intelligence" or not. If--if--there are serious methodological or measurement flaws, then that's called into question.
That's all it is. If you want to believe the Brulosophy approach is perfect and you can unconditionally trust the results, that's your right.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I never said anything was perfect. I'm sure Brulosopher would agree. I like the fact that he puts in the effort testing questionable practices. Like I said if it can be improved and you know a better way then have at. Spend the time and effort for OUR benefit and post your results...otherwise....
SoCal-Doug
Well-Known Member
It really doesn't matter what a professional brewer thinks about anything. Once they take the leap of faith and spend a **** ton of money on equipment, lease, insurance and payroll, they have entered into another world where quality, survival and net profit become equal concerns.
They need to brew for quality of course but also need to be competitive on pricing and costs. In many cases, myths, realities, processes and best practice may collide with affordability and/or the available equipment and labor.
They also need to brew for what sells rather than letting batches go stale. I'm don't know about other areas, but around my area of Southern California, it's hard to find a brewery that has anything other than IPA's (and anything else that's extreme-hopped) and maybe a stout or porter in the mix. Those appear to the fad at the moment. It's hard to find one that will brew a Saison (unless maybe one that's fruited up) or anything soured or Brett'ed (using costly space to age without a quick return on investment is a tough nut to crack)
Many now are serving other breweries products to widen all of their offerings (IMO a smart move). The public simply does not have the range of interests, tastes and variety that the typical home brewer does.
They need to brew for quality of course but also need to be competitive on pricing and costs. In many cases, myths, realities, processes and best practice may collide with affordability and/or the available equipment and labor.
They also need to brew for what sells rather than letting batches go stale. I'm don't know about other areas, but around my area of Southern California, it's hard to find a brewery that has anything other than IPA's (and anything else that's extreme-hopped) and maybe a stout or porter in the mix. Those appear to the fad at the moment. It's hard to find one that will brew a Saison (unless maybe one that's fruited up) or anything soured or Brett'ed (using costly space to age without a quick return on investment is a tough nut to crack)
Many now are serving other breweries products to widen all of their offerings (IMO a smart move). The public simply does not have the range of interests, tastes and variety that the typical home brewer does.
The problem is the tests are useless. They make lazy assumptions, there's no justifications or reasoning for any of their experimental designs, they have multiple variables they don't control for and there's no actual data collected. They hide behind the taste testing because it allows them to provide "scientific" results without any actual results.
They're the kardashians of science, all show and no substance. A picture of a thermometer and scientific jargon they don't understand themselves doesn't validate the results. Maybe some people see that and think "wow they went through a lot and everything is measured so carefully" but there's really no scientific thought process in any of it, and it's presented with a certain air of snake oil salesmanship. Just read his response below, someone questions ester production his answer is "I've been drinking lager for 10 years and I cant taster esters" That's a salesman answer, not a scientific answer.
Why not either just accept it for what it is or ignore it completely? You're asking for it to be the way you want it to be and neither Brulosophy or Experimental Brewing is interested in doing things that way.
Gee, there are thousands of people out there who don't feel the tests are useless. If you do, all you have to do is ignore them.
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