DIY Electric Brew Kettle Help Needed

[Brounds24]

I know VERY little about electrical work and I want to make sure I am considering all elements during my build next week. I have attached a picture for reference. My major question is am I overloading any circuits and how to properly ground everything.

 

[cilestiok]

You would need a 30a rated circuit. Everything would have to be rated 30a from the panel all the way down the line.


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[Brounds24]

You would need a 30a rated circuit. Everything would have to be rated 30a from the panel all the way down the line.


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So if i run this off a 30A outlet (that isn't running any other appliance) and use a replacement cord from a dryer as my power cord would that work? How to i know the amps the controller can hold before ordering? Also is there any grounding issues?

 

[joshindc]

A dryer cord should work fine (that's what I used for my build). Are you buying a pre-built controller box? It should say either the power (Watts) or current (Amps) that it's designed for. Make sure it's built for 240V too. The 5500W heating element should draw around 25 W, but it's always better to upsize a bit (and it's necessary when talking about breakers, thus the 30A breaker cilestiok mentioned).

 

[Brounds24]

Would either of these work?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MXUN6QA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

or

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MXUN3VS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[jeffmeh]

Most people use a PID with SSR, rather than one of your linked temperature controllers. If you haven't already, read http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/. That will give you all of the underlying concepts you really need to understand what you are doing. Also, you need to think about a GFCI for your own safety.

 

[cilestiok]

Most people use a PID with SSR, rather than one of your linked temperature controllers. If you haven't already, read http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/. That will give you all of the underlying concepts you really need to understand what you are doing. Also, you need to think about a GFCI for your own safety.

+1 ^^^

This is what i used when i started building my new system. Although I went the 50a route, the fundamentals are all there and kal's system is second to none when it comes to standard functional diy electric brewing.

Also, the dryer cord you mentioned will work adequately enough in most cases but make sure to double check what size wire is inside the whip itself. Research what size wires you need for the loads/resistances the cord will be receiving. No sense hurting your expensive and delicate equipment over a cheap piece of wire failing. This piece of advice is obviously for after you do your research and decide what type of controllers/accessories you will be using.

 

[kal]

+1 ^^^

This is what i used when i started building my new system. Although I went the 50a route, the fundamentals are all there...

FWIW, I have a couple of articles on building 50A control panels too for those that are interested. They're add-ons to the standard 30A panel instructions.

See the links at the top of the instructions here:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-1

Kal

 

[jleiii]

If you are building a Boil Kettle, then you should not be using a temperature controller. These are the wrong devices for a boil kettle.

The standard control for boil kettles is a SSVR, which translates to Solid State Variable Relay, which is not what they actually are. They are variable control SCR (silicon controlled rectifier), and have a variable output from 0 to 100% using a potentiometer (knob control). You turn it up to 100% till you reach the boil then back it off to maintain the level of boil you want, in a nutshell.

Look at the P_J thread for lots of circuits and discussions on dozens (or more) variations of control circuits.

I'd also avoid the controllers you linked from Amazon, if you need temperature control for anything other than the BK. Those 2 look suspicions, and will never support 30 amps. Search for STC-1000, then go to the DIY forum and read the STC-1000+ or STC-1000 PI threads for the enhanced code that can be uploaded to (some of) them.

The STC-1000 is the 'standard' inexpensive control here on HBT, and they are only good to 10 amps. You can control an SSR (on/off device) easily with them to get the high current needed. These are normally used for RIMS and HLT use, and with the Alphaomega code and wilconrad's hardware support, you can do step mashing (STC-1000+) and step fermentation control (STC-1000 PI).

Hope this helps.

 

[kal]

The standard control for boil kettles is a SSVR, which translates to Solid State Variable Relay, which is not what they actually are. They are variable control SCR (silicon controlled rectifier), and have a variable output from 0 to 100% using a potentiometer (knob control). You turn it up to 100% till you reach the boil then back it off to maintain the level of boil you want, in a nutshell.

I'm not sure I'd call an SSVR "standard" for boiling. Many prefer to use a PID. I do myself because it gives me advanced features that aren't possible with an SSVR such as alarming (I can set to 208F and have an alarm go off to tell me I'm near boil to avoid boil overs), and ability to hold temperature to do hop stands. Neither are possible with a SSVR / knob control. Up to the user to decide which they prefer.

Kal

 

[Brounds24]

Okay, I'm sorry but I don't follow whats going based on descriptions. I have a good idea of what your saying but not enough to feel 100 percent comfortable building it. In the meantime (I know an electrician from back home who I can have build it for me during the holidays) if i build a heat stick, would this wiring be correct?

 

[kal]

No.

A 240V/5500W heating element has only two connection points. You connect the two HOT lines across those two, and then the ground goes to the chassis/kettle/threading of the heating element. Neutral is not used.

In your diagram you've shorted the two HOT lines together causing a short which will immediately cause try and pull infinite current through the wiring/breaker which would (should) pop the breaker.

Kal

 

[Brounds24]

So the Hots (x & y) do to the two mounts on the coil. The ground goes to the 3 mount I've added. But does the neutral get attached to anything or do I leave it unhooked?

 

[kal]

I've never seen a heating element with a third ground lug. Can you show us a picture?

The neutral is not used so you do not attach it. If there's a physical wire, it should be capped to ensure it doesn't touch somewhere. Better yet, just use a 3-wire cord so that there's nothing attached on the wall outlet end. It'll also cost less to buy a 3-wire instead of 4-wire cord.

 

[Brounds24]

Can you purchase a 3 wired cord with the same plug ( it's the only 240 outlet I have at my apartment)

 

[jleiii]

I'm not sure I'd call an SSVR "standard" for boiling. Many prefer to use a PID. I do myself because it gives me advanced features that aren't possible with an SSVR such as alarming (I can set to 208F and have an alarm go off to tell me I'm near boil to avoid boil overs), and ability to hold temperature to do hop stands. Neither are possible with a SSVR / knob control. Up to the user to decide which they prefer.

Kal

I'm no expert such as yourself, but quite frankly this post is the first time I've seen any mention of using a PID for a boil kettle. I can see how the alarms could be useful, but how do you control the rate of boil? Water simmers at 212 and boils ferociously also at 212 yet that requires much more heat input. The PID can't know what to do at a fixed temp.

 

[kal]

Can you purchase a 3 wired cord with the same plug ( it's the only 240 outlet I have at my apartment)

You can, but the spade layout is different:

Newer 4-wire 30A dryer cord:

Older style 3-wire 30A dryer cord:

Please note that plugging in/unplugging something like this as the means to turn it on/off is not recommended. It's not safe, and it's a lot of current flowing.

You need some sort of switch that is meant to handle 240V/30A for both the 4500W or 5500W element. A simple way to do this is to use a sub-panel breaker box off the main breaker panel, located near where you're using the heating element so it's easy to turn on/off. You would use a 2-pole GFI breaker rated for 240V/30A in this sub-panel breaker box as the switch to switch the 4500W or 5500W element on/off. That is a safe way. You can also use the main breaker as the switch but often it won't be anywhere near the outlet so it's not convenient and possibly not as safe. It won't be a GFCI breaker either so that should be changed.

Keep in mind too that power will be on 100% too. You won't have any way to throttle the power.If you're only boiling then running it 100% may be fine if your volume of beer is adequate for the element size: A 5500W heating element is good for boiling 8-20 gallons or so, or possibly more (depending on kettle configuration/insulation, ambient temperature, use of a kettle chimney, etc.). If boiling less, use the 4500W or smaller heating element instead.

If any of this is confusing then I strongly urge you to continue reading/do more research or get a licenced electrician to assist.

Good luck!

Kal

 

[kal]

I'm no expert such as yourself, but quite frankly this post is the first time I've seen any mention of using a PID for a boil kettle. I can see how the alarms could be useful, but how do you control the rate of boil? Water simmers at 212 and boils ferociously also at 212 yet that requires much more heat input. The PID can't know what to do at a fixed temp.

You use manual (duty cycle) mode on the PID to set the amount of on/off time. This is a very common way, in fact I'd say it's more popular than SSVRs which have only lately started to gain popularity. More details on PID manual vs. automatic modes and how it works here.

Kal

 

[jleiii]

You use manual (duty cycle) mode on the PID to set the amount of on/off time. This is a very common way, in fact I'd say it's more popular than SSVRs which have only lately started to gain popularity. More details on PID manual vs. automatic modes and how it works here.

Kal

Ok, you're using it like a SSVR. Makes sense now.

 

[Brounds24]

So something like this (this is just to see if im in the the ball park)

 

[kal]

Conceptually yes, that's the idea, if you replace "30A temperature controller" with "30A/240V, 2 pole GFI breaker".

Your circuit would also be 30A if it's a dryer outlet, not 40A.

Kal

 

[Brounds24]

Could I use a 30a/240vac/ double pole on-off switch in place of the outlet in the project box and still pair it with the breaker?

 

[kal]

I don't follow. A switch and outlet serve different functions. You can't replace an outlet with a switch.

Kal

 

[Brounds24]

I am truly sorry for all the questions and poor explanations. Thank you everyone for your input and help!

This i what i mean:

 

[kal]

Just to be clear again: Your circuit would be 30A if it's a dryer outlet, not 40A.

You don't need both a breaker and switch in the control box. One will do. You'll find that switches rated for 240V/30A are hard to come by/expensive. A breaker is simpler. Note that either this breaker or the one that protects the main circuit should be GFCI protected for safety reasons.

Kal

 

[Brounds24]

12 bucks doesn't seem expensive

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...ble-Pole-Switch-White-R62-03032-2WS/100356941

is this right?

 

[kal]

Nope, not expensive. My mistake. Specs say it's rated for 30A/240V so it should be fine.

Kal

 

[Wacki]

12 bucks doesn't seem expensive

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...ble-Pole-Switch-White-R62-03032-2WS/100356941

is this right?

This is exactly what I use to kill power to my element outlet...works great to stop boil overs very quickly as well, and for switching plugs (I only have one 220v outlet that's controlled right now).

 

[Brounds24]

You guys have been amazing. Final Questions and I think i can start my build Thursday as planned.

First question, Is this wire good to run from the heating element to the switch?:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwir...=RV-_-RV_search_plp_rr-1-_-NA-_-204724935-_-N

Second question, is my wiring correct in my diagram?

Thanks everyone again you all have been amazing! I can't wait to start electric brewing, and my wife and the kitchen thanks you also!

 

[kal]

First question, Is this wire good to run from the heating element to the switch?:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwir...=RV-_-RV_search_plp_rr-1-_-NA-_-204724935-_-N

No. You want wire that's protected, meant for use outside of walls. More like this:

http://www.homedepot.com/s/10%2F3?NCNI-5

Second question, is my wiring correct in my diagram?

Looks reasonable. FYI, "nuetral" should be "neutral". I thought it was a typo the first time you did it, but you've done it more than once. Doesn't change your wiring.

Please make sure to use a 30A/240V 2-pole GFI breaker on this setup.

Kal

 

[Jaybird]

No. You want wire that's protected, meant for use outside of walls. More like this:

http://www.homedepot.com/s/10%2F3?NCNI-5


Looks reasonable. FYI, "nuetral" should be "neutral". I thought it was a typo the first time you did it, but you've done it more than once. Doesn't change your wiring.

Please make sure to use a 30A/240V 2-pole GFI breaker on this setup.

Kal

Kal
Your dedication to safety and electric brewing assistance is top notch man, we're lucky to have you on the board!


Cheers
Jay

 

[Brounds24]

You don't need both a breaker and switch in the control box. One will do. You'll find that switches rated for 240V/30A are hard to come by/expensive. A breaker is simpler. Note that either this breaker or the one that protects the main circuit should be GFCI protected for safety reasons.

Kal

So I will need a breaker than.

 

[Brounds24]

You know I love my diagrams (visual guy):

Better?

*Control box is a typo ment project box

 

[kal]

You already have a breaker in your main panel so you don't need a separate one in your control box.

What you should have is GFI protection which is usually done in the breaker, so you'd have to swap out the one in the main panel for a GFI breaker.

If you wish to leave that breaker in the main panel as is (not a bad idea if you use the 30A outlet for other things that may prove problematic on a GFI breaker), put a separate GFI breaker in your control box as your last picture shows.

Thanks for the compliments Jay!

Kal

 

[Swab]

Maybe I've missed it, but how are you controlling the amount of power to the element? If you are using a manual 'switch' you won't be able to control the vigor of the boil, you'll need something to control the output to the kettle to do this (PWM, PID, etc.).

However, if you plan to use the vessel in question as a mashtun, a switch will work (although not as elegant as a PID setup).

 

[Brounds24]

Kal:
The Breakers in my main panel are all GFI so I will be fine. Thank you again for all of your help. I am making a KBS clone at the end of the month and I want to make sure I dot my i's and cross my t's.

Swab:
will this unit really create that vigorous of a boil? I generally make 10 gallon batches and Ive heard 1500W isnt enough to keep 5-6 gallons at a slow rolling boiling.

 

[kal]

Kal:
The Breakers in my main panel are all GFI so I will be fine.

That is very unlikely. GFI breakers are 5-10 times the cost. There would be absolutely no reason to have all GFI breakers, and some devices may not work properly with GFI breakers. There's no way a house builder or electrician would put all GFI breakers in a breaker panel. The cost would be astronomical for no reason. You're likely thinking of something different.

Kal

 

[Swab]

Kal:
Swab:
will this unit really create that vigorous of a boil? I generally make 10 gallon batches and Ive heard 1500W isnt enough to keep 5-6 gallons at a slow rolling boiling.

What size an element are you using? I use a 5500 watt element on my setup. For 5.5 gallon batches (so starting at 7 or so is gallons) I run it at 68% to maintain a good boil.

 

[Brounds24]

What size an element are you using? I use a 5500 watt element on my setup. For 5.5 gallon batches (so starting at 7 or so is gallons) I run it at 68% to maintain a good boil.

I have a 5500W also, but I will be using it on 12 gallons give or take. If you at 70 percent for 7 gallons (roughly 10% power per gallon) im assuming ill be running at 100%. I know its not a linear trend but it will be close.

 

[kal]

For a 60 min boil I usually start with 13.9 gallon (preboil) and boil down to 12 gallons. End result is 10 gallons packaged at the end of the day. I run my 5500W/240V element at 85%. YMMV.

Kal