Dishwasher will make brown bottles prone to shatter?
- Thread starter dmaxdmax
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Plenty of people use the dishwasher, but there's no doubt that repeated heating will weaken glass. LHBS guy is right on that fact, but it may or may not actually lead to bottle bombs.
I have doubt. Do you have ready references for this? Not looking for debate here, just education.
I'd like more info too. I've just never heard of the heat and/or chemicals in a dishwasher being enough to degrade glass then again I never exactly researched it, lol.
pohldogg
Well-Known Member
The thermal expansion will eventually weaken glass, but I don't know if there's a specific tipping point for a failure. However, I wouldn't expect the dw to Be too risky since it's below even boiling. The bigger risk is for those that repeatedly oven sanitize in the 300-400 degree range.
I just used the dw because of a brett cross contamination and I wanted to be extra careful. Don't do it regularly though.
I just used the dw because of a brett cross contamination and I wanted to be extra careful. Don't do it regularly though.
Sardoman
Well-Known Member
I don't have any references on this. However, I have experiences.
I never heat my bottles and I use mostly 12oz brown glass longnecks, almost all reclaimed from domestic craft brews that I purchased and drank. I have reused some of these 20+ times. I've never had a bottle bomb and never had a bottle break while cleaning or sanitizing.
A friend of mine has been brewing for the same amount of time and he also uses 12oz longneck bottles that he reclaimed from domestic craft brews. He autoclaves his empties every time prior to bottling. He has breakage on a regular basis. Not just in the autoclave, but also while capping and bottle conditioning. Occasionally they also break just from being set down on the counter too hard. He says he loses a bottle or two on almost every batch. This guy is not unusually clumsy or brutish.
This is evidence to me that not only is my friend a moron, but also the high heat and pressure in an autoclave weakens the glass. Beer bottles are not tempered and therefore it is unwise to autoclave them on a regular basis.
For obvious reasons that does not necessarily mean that the dishwasher would be doing the same thing to bottles as an autoclave. However, it is a plausible suggestion and I have no desire to run that experiment.
I never heat my bottles and I use mostly 12oz brown glass longnecks, almost all reclaimed from domestic craft brews that I purchased and drank. I have reused some of these 20+ times. I've never had a bottle bomb and never had a bottle break while cleaning or sanitizing.
A friend of mine has been brewing for the same amount of time and he also uses 12oz longneck bottles that he reclaimed from domestic craft brews. He autoclaves his empties every time prior to bottling. He has breakage on a regular basis. Not just in the autoclave, but also while capping and bottle conditioning. Occasionally they also break just from being set down on the counter too hard. He says he loses a bottle or two on almost every batch. This guy is not unusually clumsy or brutish.
This is evidence to me that not only is my friend a moron, but also the high heat and pressure in an autoclave weakens the glass. Beer bottles are not tempered and therefore it is unwise to autoclave them on a regular basis.
For obvious reasons that does not necessarily mean that the dishwasher would be doing the same thing to bottles as an autoclave. However, it is a plausible suggestion and I have no desire to run that experiment.
Special Hops
Well-Known Member
Cheap glass can degrade with repeated washings with dishwasher detergent. But honestly I not sure what the threshold is.
cadarnell
Well-Known Member
never heard that one ... been using some of the same bottles for a year and a half now ... putting them thru the dish washer everytime I use them ... no problems so far
No worries, of course.
I don't have anything off hand, but it's a frequently observed thing in laboratory work. If you heat and cool the same beaker over and over again, the repeated cycles of expansion and contraction exaggerate already existing structural weaknesses in the glass. That's the reason labs spend big money on borosilicate, though even this stuff won't last forever.
I'll see if I can find any references.
I can understand autoclaving or like boiling in it but the whole dishwasher part didn't make sense to me. I guess if it is high enough to cause expansion though the fatigue would eventually weaken it.
Special Hops
Well-Known Member
I think cheap glass is the soda ash glass. Going from memory. And dishwasher detergent does wear at it over time.
Is it enough to worry about. I doubt it.
Is it enough to worry about. I doubt it.
TomSD said:
Any amount of heat change will cause expansion and contraction. If the dishwasher is hot enough to sanitize, that's plenty hot.
Special Hops said:
Exactly. There's credence to the notion, but whether or not this would lead to an actual broken bottle in any given individual's lifetime is still an open question. I suspect it's probably not actually that big of a deal, but I've got nothing to back me up on that but anecdotal experience.
I put a logging thermometer in my dishwasher and the temp hovered about 150, never exceeded 160. I've posted that graph on this forum several times. That was with the NSF sanitize option enabled on the DW.
Coffee and tea enter the cup at close to boiling, but those cups aren't subjected to pressure.
If the contraction cycles of the dishwasher can cause a problem, wouldn't the same cycles occur by putting the bottles into a cold fridge? I guess that's not as big a temp swing, but still exists.
Just some food for thought. Cheers gents!
Coffee and tea enter the cup at close to boiling, but those cups aren't subjected to pressure.
If the contraction cycles of the dishwasher can cause a problem, wouldn't the same cycles occur by putting the bottles into a cold fridge? I guess that's not as big a temp swing, but still exists.
Just some food for thought. Cheers gents!
Reeaaaallly.... 150 is a lot cooler than I would have expected. In any case, I suspect you're right about the fridge, though I wonder if the expansion is linear to temperature. I don't use the dishwasher anymore for various reasons, but I wouldn't hesitate to if it were convenient.
I suspect that, at worst, the dishwasher would expedite otherwise inevitable aging processes. But, the cautious part of me hesitates to say that something is harmless without having good data to back me up.
Yet more ways to justify the move to kegs to myself. 
Here you go, found an old thread of mine with data. It's a 1-yr-old kitchenaid. BTW, I stopped using the DW when I finally got a vinator (which was better). Kegging now
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/dishwasher-temperatures-datalogged-graphed-202607/
But the big difference is the pressure aspect. I don't say that it would be a make or break deal for me (though I never used the DW for sanitizing), however I would have to find truth to the idea that the varying of temperatures may cause a weakening of the glass.
Brewskii
Well-Known Member
dmaxdmax said:
Let me guess....
.... He doesn't sell dishwashers?
dmaxdmax
Well-Known Member
winner! the main reason that the dishwasher may increase the rate of bottles cracking is simply the fact that they are banged around against each other during the wash.
the problems come when the glasses rattle against each other when they are stacked in the rack from the pulsing water jet. even small repeated impacts cause micro stress fractures which can weaken the bottle over time.
if you dont believe me, go get a rolling rock bottle (or other very thin beer bottle) and drop a dime into it. swirl the dime around the bottom of the bottle for a 10 minutes or so and it will explode out the side of the bottle. the dime isnt very heavy at all, but it will still break the bottle if it impacts it enough times.
this is a good discussion and im glad i finally found one regarding heat on the beer bottles. I threw a bunch of empty beer bottles in the dish washer half an hour ago to clean them up. I did leave a decent amount of space between them and didnt over load the dish washer either. I just read someone mentioning that the bottles can clang and bang around in the DW so i was like **** , and i ran downstairs and opened up my DW and took a peak, the DW was running and cleaning and doing its thing but the bottles were completely still. Just to make sure I opened and closed it Numerous times to make sure , and each time i opened it up the bottles sat very still and didnt move. Maybe because our dishwasher is an older model it may be different than the rest out there but I did not see any movement from the bottles in my DW!
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