Difference between Whirlpool and Dry Hopping?

[Gee Tee]

I'm about to embark on my first ever fully self-designed Hazy IPA recipe with Kveik Hornindale and a blend of Fuggle, Chinook, Idahoe 7 and Simcoe hops. What is the difference between adding whirl-pooling the hops and letting it stand them for 15 minutes and dry hopping. Does whirlpooling pull out more of the flavors (and maybe a bit of the bitterness)?

 

[lumpher]

Yep, whirlpooling pulls out a lot more hop oil, so you get more flavor and bitterness. Dry-hopping gives you aroma but very little hop flavor. If you want both, do both. If not, then use dry hopping for aroma or whirlpooling for flavor and bitterness. They aren't mutually exclusive, but you get a lot more of 1 than the other depending on method.

 

[hotbeer]

Dry hopping is done in the FV. Whirlpooling is done between the end of boil and the end of chilling. So higher temps involved for the whirlpool addition of hops that will bring out different stuff.

Though perhaps in it's truest since whirlpooling is done when the wort is chilled to it's pitch temp for the FV. Though it seems some just use the term to reference adding hops at the time the beer is being chilled whether or not a actual whirlpool is being formed.

Also whirlpooling will be before fermentation takes place and dry hopping will be after most or all of the fermentation has happened.

Or at least that's what I've imagined. Certainly I've not ever read the real definition of the terms.

 

[sibelman]

I agree with @lumpher but add one note : Supposedly, whirlpool hops don't add bitterness if wort is cooled to <170°F before the hops go in.

 

[d40dave]

I agree with @lumpher but add one note : Supposedly, whirlpool hops don't add bitterness if wort is cooled to <170°F before the hops go in.

I have some recipes that call for flameout or 0 min hop additions. I have been letting the wort cool to 185 then add the hops for 15 minutes then cool the wort to fermentation temps. I was never sure if this is how it should be done. Thanks.

 

[VikeMan]

I agree with @lumpher but add one note : Supposedly, whirlpool hops don't add bitterness if wort is cooled to <170°F before the hops go in.

Hops definitely can add bitterness below 170F. While the isomeraization of alpha acids at lower temps doesn't seem to have been much studied (but see An Analysis of Sub-Boiling Hop Utilization on the AlchemyOverlord site for an interesting read), bitterness also comes from oxidized (non-isomerized) alpha/beta acids and even polyphenols.

Mark Malowicki studied temps of 90C and above. https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/downloads/bz60d000z And although he didn't look at temps below 90C, the curves extrapolated from his work seem to work nicely (subjectively and as supported by the analysis by AlchemyOverlord). I use a formula derived from Malowicki's work in BrewCipher's post-boil hop addition calcs. (To be clear, I use a formula I derived from Malowicki's data, not AlchemyOverlord's formula, but they yield similar results. See Figure 4 in the AlchemyOverlord writeup at An Analysis of Sub-Boiling Hop Utilization for the money shot.)

 

[Miraculix]

Hops definitely can add bitterness below 170F. While the isomeraization of alpha acids at lower temps doesn't seem to have been much studied (but see An Analysis of Sub-Boiling Hop Utilization on the AlchemyOverlord site for an interesting read), bitterness also comes from oxidized (non-isomerized) alpha/beta acids and even polyphenols.

Mark Malowicki studied temps of 90C and above. https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/downloads/bz60d000z And although he didn't look at temps below 90C, the curves extrapolated from his work seem to work nicely (subjectively and as supported by the analysis by AlchemyOverlord). I use a formula derived from Malowicki's work in BrewCipher's post-boil hop addition calcs. (To be clear, I use a formula I derived from Malowicki's data, not AlchemyOverlord's formula, but they yield similar results. See Figure 4 in the AlchemyOverlord writeup at An Analysis of Sub-Boiling Hop Utilization for the money shot.)

Nice graphs! I only knew some tables which basically said similar, but the graphs are more handy and look like they do closely match what I would guess based on my whirlpool only beer experiments (which resulted in marvelous beer btw.).

 

[tracer bullet]

I've been running WP at 170F for 20 minutes. Immediately after boil, I throw in my WP arm and copper coil chiller to let them be sanitized for a minute or so. Then I turn on the pump to start the whirlpool and the water to the chiller. The pump stays running but the chiller is only used a minute or so until I'm getting near 170F. I have an Anvil Foundry so I go ahead and set that temperature at half power. I've been considering 170F for 20 minutes to contribute IBU's similar to if I boiled for 5 minutes, so that's what goes in my calculators (the hops AA and a 5min boil to represent the 20min at 170F).

Thus far it seems to work well. Perceived bitterness is a complicated thing but I'm pretty sure something like this is not way off. In fact I may have taken that 20min @ 170 = 5min at boil idea from the first link in VikeMan's post.

 

[sibelman]

Perceived bitterness is a complicated thing

This seems to be the essence, whatever the graphs show, but data are valuable notwithstanding this subjectivity. My wife and I differ in perception of both bitterness and floral/tropical aromas.

I guess I'm gonna consider the alpha acid of Whirlpool hops more in the future.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Dry-hopping gives you aroma but very little hop flavor.

I would contest this statement. Flavor is a combination of taste and aroma (you could probably lump other sensations into what we count as flavor as well). Both whirlpool and dry hopping will give lots of hop flavors. There are a number of NEIPA recipes where the vast majority of the hops are in the dry hop, and those beers can be saturated with hop flavors. You just might get different flavors from both. It could be that some of the more volatile aroma components are scrubbed off during fermentation. It could also just be different oils are extract based on the time and temperature differences of whirlpooling and dry hopping.

I feel like I can get a decent amount of hop character in a Pale Ale with just a whirlpool addition vs a dry hop addition. I tend to think that a dry hop addition is important to get the desired hop level in an IPA, and I tend to lean on heavy whirlpool and dry hop additions for Hazy IPA style beers.

 

[Deadalus]

I have some recipes that call for flameout or 0 min hop additions. I have been letting the wort cool to 185 then add the hops for 15 minutes then cool the wort to fermentation temps. I was never sure if this is how it should be done. Thanks.

You are whirlpooling them at that temp (even without stirring if you aren't) and it in all likelihood produces a different aroma profile than a flameout addition might provide. Bitterness is also likely different to some degree. The thing about flameout hops is that you are cooling down right after which is different than holding at 185 for 15 minutes. As you drop from boiling down to 185 that may drive off more, less or perhaps no difference as by adding at 185 and holding. Depends on the hop composition and the speed of the temp drop. Concsider trying a flameout addition on the next go of the same recipe and see which one you prefer!