Dextrose and Hop Bitterness

[oljimmy]

Hi all, just wanted to share something that might provoke a little discussion: I've been trying to figure out why my recent British Bitter is so undrinkable. I had a standard malt bill and used a fair dose of EKG and Willamette hops, aiming for something on the slightly bitter end of the style (1.045, with 38-ish IBUs).

My mash efficiency was low (bad crush at LHBS, I think, lots of non-broken grains) and I'd heard that makers of this style often add 5% of dextrose to increase fermentability. So, I compensated by adding .5 lb of dextrose to take my OG from 1.040-1.044. Didn't think much of it. Brewed as usual.

Big mistake. There is way too much earthy/sharp/smoky taste and aroma from the hops, and not nearly enough malt to balance this. Am I correct in assuming that the dextrose had a lot to do with this? i.e. it fermented out 100%, leaving the beer at 1.010, with much less unfermented malt sugar to balance the hops. I'm also wondering if dextrose reduces utilization in the boil like malt sugars do.

Bottom line: I think that if you're adding dextrose, you should reduce hop additions accordingly. I should have pretended I was making a 1.040 beer, for the purposes of hop addition. In other words, if you calculate BU:GU, use the gravity points you *would* have had without the dextrose.

Still gonna drink this keg dry, though! Otherwise I won't learn my lesson!

 

[McGarnigle]

Dextrose adds no malt sweetness which is needed to balance out the hops. So it is still effectively a lighter beer.

That being said, 1.040 vs. 1.044 isn't a huge difference. So I'm skeptical that that's the main issue here making your beer "so undrinkable."

 

[m00ps]

dextrose doesnt have any notable effect on hop flavors. It will dry out the beer a bit more, which can let the hops character more prominent, but it does not change the hop flavor. The off flavors you listed most likely came from improper yeast handling. Improper pitching rate or temp control can cause yeast to make those types of flavors. Or it could have somethign to do with with your water profile or maybe the wrong grain (peat malt) got into the mix by accident.

 

[Owly055]

I've found that when using sugar........which I frequently do, the balance between malty and hoppy needs to be based on what the OG would be without the sugar. Sugar contributes alcohol only. Thus if the chart says "extra hoppy" for an OG of 1.050 is 32-42 IBUs, but your real OG without the sugar is 1.045, you need to look at that chart level.

I've stopped using the charts, as I am at the upper end most of the time anyway..... What is your IBU??

If it is as you say "undrinkable"......... Set it in the back room for 6 months.........


H.W.

 

[oljimmy]

That being said, 1.040 vs. 1.044 isn't a huge difference. So I'm skeptical that that's the main issue here making your beer "so undrinkable."

This is partly true and partly not true. I think I may have just slightly over-hopped, period, because I've been concerned about under-utilization. But do the math:

38 IBUs, 1.045: .844 BU:GU.
38 IBUs, 1.040: .950 BU:GU.

So in terms of BU:GU, that is actually a fairly significant jump, comparable to the jump between a California Common and an American IPA on the BJCP charts.

 

[IslandLizard]

You said you had a "standard malt bill." Perhaps you can post your recipe to be able to help you better? What yeast did you use?

Bitters are about flavor, dextrose adds none, just alcohol, which you really don't want to boost. Bitters are well-balanced sessionable ales.
Willamette is not a traditional "English Bitter" hop, maybe that's throwing the balance off too.

 

[ncbrewer]

I agree with McGarnigle about matching hop bitterness with malt sweetness, and not counting sugar. In addition, there has been a lot of discussion in recent years about hop utilization vs boil gravity. Some have decided it's a complete myth, while others stand by it. One favored theory is that utilization is related to the hot break material. I personally lean toward this theory, which would indicate that hop utilization would be higher for your wort with dextrose. This would mean your IBU's were higher than you calculated.

 

[SnakeRidge]

I'm skeptical of this too. I brew a IIPA with a pound of dextrose and 100+ calculated IBU's. The biggest problem with it is that it is too drinkable. I can drink it like sweet tea, until my wife asks me why I'm walking funny.

 

[azazel1024]

Dextrose adds no malt sweetness which is needed to balance out the hops. So it is still effectively a lighter beer.

That being said, 1.040 vs. 1.044 isn't a huge difference. So I'm skeptical that that's the main issue here making your beer "so undrinkable."

Agreed. I just brewed a mild which was 70% 2-row, 15% coffee malt and 15% crystal 90l. Ended up accidently adding my hop additions early at pre-boil, 60 minutes and 5 minutes (I realized it before my final addition that was about to go in at 15 minutes). So I ended up mid 40's instead of low 30's on IBUs.

Still smooth on the bitterness, some very mild roast. A nice mild version of a brown ale.

It was 1.046 and it fermented down to 1.009 for the one I used Nottingham in and 1.010 for the S04 fermented (I split it to test the two ales).

 

[azazel1024]

You said you had a "standard malt bill." Perhaps you can post your recipe to be able to help you better? What yeast did you use?

Bitters are about flavor, dextrose adds none, just alcohol, which you really don't want to boost. Bitters are well-balanced sessionable ales.
Willamette is not a traditional "English Bitter" hop, maybe that's throwing the balance off too.

I would also ask what the malt bill was and also the yeast. In my little experiment, I found that Nottingham yeast resulted in a slightly lower FG, but also the hops were a little rounder and it actually tasted maltier than the S04. The S04 was a little sharper hop bitterness, but the maltiness was lower and the roast softer (not in a pleasant way, like too soft).

Both are decent milds, but I'd take the Nottingham over the S04 fermented mild by a long shot (maybe a 6 out of 10 for the S04, but an 8 out of 10 for the Nottingham).

 

[oljimmy]

Hey all, thanks for the input, here. Here's the recipe. I made a starter, matched my water to AJF's Pale Ale profile, sanitized everything obviously, fermented at 64 and raised to 70, etc. And sorry: shouldn't have said it was "undrinkable", since I am drinking a pint a day. But the bitter/earthy/smoky sharpness on the nose and the palate kind of ruins it.


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.52 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.72 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.25 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.045 SG
Estimated Color: 10.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 38.7 IBUs

Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7 lbs 5.0 oz Maris Otter (Crisp) (4.0 SRM) Grain 1 79.8 %
12.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.2 %
8.0 oz Caramel Malt - 60L (Briess) (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.5 %
1.5 oz Carafa I (337.0 SRM) Grain 4 1.0 %
8.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 5 5.5 %
33.60 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [4.50 %] - Boil Hop 6 19.5 IBUs
31.50 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [4.50 %] - Boil Hop 7 11.1 IBUs
29.75 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [4.50 %] - Boil Hop 8 3.5 IBUs
29.75 g Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 3.0 min Hop 9 2.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) [35.49 Yeast 10 -

 

[azazel1024]

Doesn't seem like a lot of Willamette based on the volume, but Willamette (IMHO) is a bit stronger than Fuggles in the earthy/bitter aromas. I personally like it because it is a little stronger, but I also know to use it in moderation, ESPECIALLY when using it for aroma.

You can give it a few weeks to mellow and it might be a lot better.

I tend to get Willamette in bulk and use it in most of my English Ale recipes because I love the stuff so much.

My father-in-law constantly comments about how my English beers "taste sour", which I think he is interpreting the meld of bitter and earthiness that Willamette and fuggle have as a sour taste on his palate.

However, with the exception of English IPAs, I never use more than half an ounce for aroma in a 4-5 gallon recipe because it is very pungent.

 

[oljimmy]

HI Azazel, yeah, I realized late on that the earthiness was definitely the Willamette and that I used too much aroma hop here. Over 2 oz in this kind of recipe is stupid. Also, a fair bit of the hop material made it into the fermenter, and this might have increased the perception of the Willamette. Thanks for the confirmation!