Decoction mash plan

[h-bar]

I am planning to do a double decoction mash for my upcoming munich helles. I have never done a decoction mash, and want to make sure I have the right idea. I use a cooler MLT and will use a propane burner to heat the decoctions.

Total grain weight: 10.33 lb
Add 4.5 gal 134F water for dough in
Protein rest at 122F for 20 min

Remove 10 qt thick mash, boil 10 min
Return decoction to mash tun
Saccharification rest 150F, 60 min

Remove 9 qt thin mash, boil 10 min
Add back in, stir

Begin sparge

Should I boil the decoctions for more or less time? I chose 10 min because I don't want to darken the wort too much. Also, I've been told that adding boiling water to grain will extract astringent and grainy flavors. Why won't that happen here? What efficiency should I expect? I typically get 70-75% with a single infusion mash with my set up. Thanks in advance!

 

[NTexBrewer]

I've done a few decoctions but do not consider myself an expert.

You will not get tannins or astringency because the mash pH is low.

Some people recommend holding the first decoction at 155 for 10 minutes to get some conversion before bringing it to a boil.

My efficiency usually increases some.

Make sure you have some extra boiling water to help with temperature adjustment if you don't hit your temps and don't have a heat source to raise your mash temps

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I to am no expert either but I have done a couple decoction mashes and I am starting to "get" it. I think I remember hearing that decoctions don't pull the tannins because you are trying to only pull the thick mash leaving most of the thin mash (water) behind. Obviously you'll still get some liquid when you're pulling the thick mash but a little isn't a bad thing. Also if your mash ph was ok, then there shouldn't be any astringency issues regardless (I adjust now with acidulated malt).

Be really careful on the propane not to scorch the decoctions. First decoction I did it got away from me a little. I decided it'd be much easier to control my decoctions with an electric stove top. I lose surface area since I need to use a smaller pot on top of the stove, but I give that up for control and less chanc of scorching. Yesterday I did a double decoction Scottish wee heavy, each one was 10ish minutes. 10 minutes should be just fine.

 

[h-bar]

Alright, sounds good. Thanks for the advice!

 

[Cyclman]

I hold my first decoction at 150 for 15 min. For some reason, decoctions in my experience don't darken the wort, though I've never done one for a very light Pilsner. My favorite website on German style brews: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

EDIT: re-reading the article, my beer doesn't darken much because I only boil the mash for 10-15 min each time, apparently not long enough to have much carmelization / darkening reaction.

 

[helibrewer]

You really don't need the protein rest, I would dough-in to get 150F then pull a single decoction for mash out. 10 minutes is good for the boil, just take your time bringing it to a boil.

The other way is to start with your mash split, dough-in the main mash to 150F, bring the decoction portion up to 150F and rest for 20 min, then continue to heat it to a boil for 10 minutes, then add back to your main mash....this method is a bit easier than sloppying hot mash aound twice.

 

[wobdee]

I've read you need the decoction to boil at least 30 min for the malliard/melanoiden reactions to accure. I go 35 min in my single decoction process (Schmitz Process) and I usually see about a 2-3 SRM darkening compared to my Promash settings and also get a wonderfully malty brew.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I've read you need the decoction to boil at least 30 min for the malliard/melanoiden reactions to accure. I go 35 min in my single decoction process (Schmitz Process) and I usually see about a 2-3 SRM darkening compared to my Promash settings and also get a wonderfully malty brew.

I guess my experience is within a couple of minutes of boiling with vigorous stirring I get a color change, the lighter malts by 10 minutes start to turn a brown caramel color. I guess due to electric stove top and using a smaller pot I have less surface area and more concentrated heat I get quicker caramelization (I use propane for everything else the electric stove top I find to be easier to control for decoctions).

 

[h-bar]

Okay, so I read more about protein rests and decided it's not necessary. I don't want to ruin the head retention. So I'll do a single decoction for mash out. I worry about boiling for 30 minutes and darkening the beer too much. I want it to maintain a light <5 SRM color. Wobdee, you think that the propane burner won't darken it too much? When you say it increases by 2-3 SRM, are you referring to the decoction separately or the finished product?

 

[wobdee]

Okay, so I read more about protein rests and decided it's not necessary. I don't want to ruin the head retention. So I'll do a single decoction for mash out. I worry about boiling for 30 minutes and darkening the beer too much. I want it to maintain a light <5 SRM color. Wobdee, you think that the propane burner won't darken it too much? When you say it increases by 2-3 SRM, are you referring to the decoction separately or the finished product?

Not sure about a propane burner. I use a 3500w induction burner. My Straight Pils malt brews turn out around 4-5 SRM as a finished product according to my eye and comparing charts.

 

[VladOfTrub]

"I think I remember hearing that decoctions don't pull the tannins because you are trying to only pull the thick mash leaving most of the thin mash (water) behind."

You have tannin confused with enzymes. Boiling the thick decoction mash thermally denatures enzymes. The thin mash left in the mash tun is laden with enzymes. After conversion takes place, the thin mash is removed and boiled to halt any enzymatic action and to raise the main mash temperature.

OP..Before boiling the thick decoction. Ensure that the pH of the mash is at least 5.8, 5.5 is better. It's a good idea to adjust mash pH before beginning to mash.

If you decide to brew a style of beer that benefits from formation of mellanoidin. It is better to pull the first decoction from a mash resting at a temperature in which little enzymatic action is taking place. The decoction can be temperature stepped and boiled for an extended time period, favoring malliard reaction and formation of melanoidin.

When a decoction is being brought up to boiling temperature, the mash will darken, because some conversion has taken place. The darkening isn't to be confused with malliard reaction.


If you are going to get into decoction brewing, try Weyermann's light or dark pils floor malt.

If you get on Weyermann's site, take a look at recipes that use their malt. They recommend a 122F rest for 20 minutes. Their malt is standard protein and brewers standard modification. Their floor malt is slightly under modified. I have used many pounds of their light and dark pils floor malt and have had great success using it with the tri-decoction method.

Crisp EuroPils is advertized as being produced for decoction brewers. The malt jells like crazy during boiling of the decoction and it is very slow to convert after gelatinization. Ihommedieu and I brewed one, 20 gallon batch using Crisp. The next time I use the malt I'll know how to work with it. I am use to the performance of Weyermann malt and expected the same things to happen during mashing Crisp malt. It just didn't work out that way. It produces a Lager that tastes more like Harp.

I think that Wobdee contacted an European malster to find out if their malt is suitable for use in the Schmitz process. I can't remember who the malster was that he contacted.

Wob..when I find a few minutes to sit down, I'll let you know where I found the info on the Schmitz method. I was researching crush and grain conditioning when I stumbled on the article and I think that I read about the Schmitz in an abstract dated in 1896. I have to backtrack to find the abstract. The method fascinates me.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

No I was pretty specifically addressing tannin extraction concerns. The commonly held practice is to never boil grains in water due to the potential for extracting tannins (like an over steeped tea bag). Since the thin mash is left behind there's not as much fluid in the decoction to extract tannins.

 

[h-bar]

My LHBS doesn't have Weyermann floor malted pils, but they do have regular Weyermann pils. After talking to other brewers about this in another thread, I decided to just go with what my LHBS had. The inconvenience of ordering online didn't seem to outweigh the reward, according to the people I discussed it with. One guy said that he had done a pilsner with both types, and couldn't tell the difference. According to some other threads I've read on here, Weyermann pils is modified and doesn't need a protein rest, but floor malted does. Do you think a short protein rest would be of some benefit?

Since I'm making a helles, I really don't want darken the wort too much. I will lean toward a shorter decoction boil time.

 

[VladOfTrub]

"No I was pretty specifically addressing tannin extraction concerns. The commonly held practice is to never boil grains in water due to the potential for extracting tannins (like an over steeped tea bag). Since the thin mash is left behind there's not as much fluid in the decoction to extract tannins."

Yup, and you pretty much got it wrong. We ain't makin tea, Jr.. Mash pH impacts tannin extraction. As I mentioned, enzymes thermally denature. Thin mash is left in the tun during the time the decoctions are boiled in order to preserve enzymes. It has nothing to do with tannin extraction. Tannin is in the husk.

Read Noonan's book on Lager brewing. It will help you to understand what takes place throughout decoction procedures. Right now, you don't have a good grip on the method.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

"No I was pretty specifically addressing tannin extraction concerns. The commonly held practice is to never boil grains in water due to the potential for extracting tannins (like an over steeped tea bag). Since the thin mash is left behind there's not as much fluid in the decoction to extract tannins."

Yup, and you pretty much got it wrong. We ain't makin tea, Jr.. Mash pH impacts tannin extraction. As I mentioned, enzymes thermally denature. Thin mash is left in the tun during the time the decoctions are boiled in order to preserve enzymes. It has nothing to do with tannin extraction. Tannin is in the husk.

Read Noonan's book on Lager brewing. It will help you to understand what takes place throughout decoction procedures. Right now, you don't have a good grip on the method.

I know we arent making tea... We are leaving the thin mash in the tun and taking the thick mash and boiling it. I don't know what else I need to say to be honest as (one of) the concern(s) was extracting tannin during the boiling of the thick mash. I wasn't at all talking about enzymes, of course the vast majority of the enzymes are left in the thin mash.

I saw a question that was concerned about extracting tannins during the boiling of the thick mash. I don't know if you're purposely trolling me or something as I know this, a lot of the information is already online and I wasn't discussing the enzymatic side of the equation, only the tannins.

The tannins, in the husks, which are in the thick mash, which you are boiling, without the thin mash (that still has lots of enzymes in it), and are not extracting tannins due to the lowered water content in the thick mash. Do I need to bullet point it for you? Do you want to discuss tannin extraction in decoctions, as I would love to know more about this as my understanding of that side is less than I would like, but I understand the enzymatic side well enough as to not need someone to talk down to me.

 

[wobdee]

I think that Wobdee contacted an European malster to find out if their malt is suitable for use in the Schmitz process. I can't remember who the malster was that he contacted.

Wob..when I find a few minutes to sit down, I'll let you know where I found the info on the Schmitz method. I was researching crush and grain conditioning when I stumbled on the article and I think that I read about the Schmitz in an abstract dated in 1896. I have to backtrack to find the abstract. The method fascinates me.

Yes, I contacted Best Malting's. They told me all their malts were absolutely OK for decoction brewing and it wouldn't be very expedient for them not to make it so since the process is still used over in Germany.

I'd appreciate that info greatly, I'm still tinkering with the process and its making for some great lagers so far.

 

[VladOfTrub]

"According to some other threads I've read on here, Weyermann pils is modified and doesn't need a protein rest, but floor malted does. Do you think a short protein rest would be of some benefit?"

There are levels of modification, low, standard and high. A lot of English malt is high modified having an SNR 42, up to and sometimes above 45. Standard brewers malt runs between 38 and 42 SNR and low modified malt is SNR 38 to 36. Chit malt is around 33. The SNR and Kolbach number indicate level of modification. Go to the producer of the malt for direction. Most of Weyermann's recipes using their "modified" malt calls for a protein rest. Weyermann Pils is standard protein and modification. However, the SNR number is lower than the SNR of standard malt from other producers.

It's not a bad idea to get familiar with the malt data sheet on the malt you are going to use. There are different things on it that can aid a brewer when deciding on how to treat the mash. If you use Best or Weyermann, the bar code numbers can be used to trace the grain to the field where it was grown. Each sack of grain can be different. To know exactly what the make up of the malt is, the bar code numbers off of the sack can be e-mailed to the malster and they will give out the data on the malt in the sack.

I began learning the tri-decoction method in 1987 and have used mainly under modified malt throughout the years, unless I couldn't procure it. I rest the first decoction at 122 to 125F for 20 minutes, before going into a conversion rest. When brewing Lager and Pils I convert the first decoction at 155F. The mash pH during the first decoction favors alpha. The decoction is used to increase main mash temp into the higher end of the proteolytic range. I'm not really concerned about protein reduction. I am more concerned with reducing beta glucan and viscosity during the rest. Although beta glucanase is pretty much destroyed in high modified malt. Proteinase will reduce beta glucan, converting it to glucose.

Be more concerned about mash pH, than a protein rest or darkening of the mash. It's better to focus on dialing in the process and to learn what takes place throughout the process.
Another thing to be aware of is that during a short 10 minute boil a lot of amylopectin will be released. If the jelled mash is carried over to the lautertun without being converted, the quality of the final product will be reduced.

 

[VladOfTrub]

"The commonly held practice is to never boil grains in water due to the potential for extracting tannins (like an over steeped tea bag)."

Yes, in one way you are right. However, the topic is about the decoction process in which controlling mash pH is very important. Mash can be boiled if the pH is in the ball park. So, it is not a "commonly held practice never to boil grain in water" in decoction brewing. It's part of the reason a decoction works. It's pretty hard to boil thick dry mash without scorching it. Besides, if there was no water carried over to the decoction, what was boiling in the decoctions you performed? As I mentioned, Noonan's book is good to read. I have no reason to troll you, I apologize to you.

 

[VladOfTrub]

Wob...I will bet you are making fine beer. I'm gathering up the equipment to attempt the Schmitz process. I'm going to use a similar mash receiver as you use, except I'm not going to drill the wall of the cylinder, just the bottom. If it causes a problem, I'll drill out the wall. I have a 10 gallon kettle and a five gallon that I'm going to get drilled to be used as the mash receiver. I need to get one more kettle and I'll be good to go. Your system is nice and lean. I see before me, years of learning and dialing in another process. Hell, I was getting burned out on tri-decoctions, anyway.

 

[h-bar]

"
Be more concerned about mash pH, than a protein rest or darkening of the mash. It's better to focus on dialing in the process and to learn what takes place throughout the process.
Another thing to be aware of is that during a short 10 minute boil a lot of amylopectin will be released. If the jelled mash is carried over to the lautertun without being converted, the quality of the final product will be reduced.

What do you mean by quality being reduced? Less malty flavor?

 

[lhommedieu]

.. I rest the first decoction at 122 to 125F for 20 minutes, before going into a conversion rest. When brewing Lager and Pils I convert the first decoction at 155F. The mash pH during the first decoction favors alpha...

Thanks for an informative and enlivening thread.

If the optimal pH range for Alpha is 5.6-5.8, then do you add saurmalz prior to the protein rest at 122F if the pH does not come down sufficiently during the acid rest? Or do you extend the acid rest time? Or do you check pH again after the protein rest and then act accordingly?

Edit: Never mind. According to Noonan: "The rest is most successfully employed when mashing with reasonably soft or sulfate waters." (BLB, p. 106) If I'm using RO water then this shouldn't be an issue, and even my local water is not strongly carbonate.

 

[h-bar]

I usually start with RO water and add minerals back in. I'll be adding the amounts of CaCl2 and Gypsum specified by Braukaiser for his Edel Hell: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Edel_Hell

RO water typically has very little minerals to begin with, and the yeast does need some calcium...but no more than 50 ppm for this style. Also, I'll know that I'm getting a balanced Cl(-)/SO4(2-) ratio.

My RO water pH is close to 6.2, probably due to absorbed CO2. However, using carbonate speciation equations, I have calculated the corresponding bicarbonate concentration to be about 0.3 ppm. So, not worth worrying about too much. I do take the pH into account when doing my water calcs, in order to get the right amount of acid malt.