Cost vs. Labor - Before I do anything!

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olllllo said:
Soooo, as I understand it, you're able to make beer for economic gain (ie saving money) without labor by doing some magical incantation, called "It's a hobby"'

Why not make all labor a hobby?
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SO then i guess your job would be a hobby then

def.
hob·by 1 (hb)
n. pl. hob·bies
An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.
 
It is unbelievable that most people figure you can save money when you home brew your own. I buy my hops in bulk and my base grains in bulk as well. Having just spent $40 for supplies on an IPA I figure my end result will be 50 bottles of beer. This works out to be $0.80 per bottle or $4.80 per 6 pack. This cost does not include the cost of the bottle which I got for free, the cost of the water, the propane, cleaning chemicals, equipment or any consideration for my time. When you figure a 3 year amortization schedule on the equipment, a monthly batch and an all grain equipment cost of approximately $750 for a kettle, wort chiller, grain mill, 2 glass carboys, bottling equipment,cooler mash tun, burner, temperature controller and other extraneous equipment, the equipment adds proximately $20 per batch on a straight amortization. In other words the cost of my beer is actually $60 for a 5 gallon batch. At $60 per batch this works out to $1.20 per bottle and $7.20 for a 6 pack. When I can go to the store and buy a premium beer for roughly the same amount of money, I did not get into the hobby to save money on the cost of my beer. I got into the hobby because I enjoy hand crafted beers of various styles that are not available locally and I wanted to take pride in creating my own recipes, my own brewery and to be able to show off my skills to family and friends alike when I can serve them my beer and say I made this.

Don't justify your interest in the hobby as a cost savings. Get into the hobby because you enjoy hand crafted beer and want to create your own. Because once you get in the hobby it will be just like owning a boat. When you own a boat you always want a bigger boat. In home brewing you alway want that next gadget or a bigger fridge or a bigger brew pot and pretty soon you are investing not hundreds of dollars in the hobby but thousands. Brewing is a great hobby to have and you can brew as a solo pursuit or brew with a group of friends. But in the end it does become a communal hobby as you can't wait to show off your latest creation with your family and friends.
 
I dunno I order my extract and hops online. to make a 5-6% beer costs me about 25$.

~20$ in extract (6-7 pounds)
~2$ in hops (2-4 ounces)
~1.50$ in yeast (I buy whitelabs but reuse a yeast cake 3-4 times)
~1-2$ in steeping grains or partial mash grains
~1$ in bottle caps

So that is like 12.50 a case for some amazing beer. You can get a case of budlight for 12 dollars around here...and that is what..3.5-4% and taste like watered down piss? I mean highlife often costs 3$ a sixer and thats what my oatmeal chocolate stout is costing me a 6 pack. I can't think of any 6 pack of oatmeal chocolate stout that cost 3$ or even 6$...9$ is the going price honestly...

I can make an awesome india pale ale in basically 90minutes start to finish cleaning included for 22$. I can make an imperial pale ale of about 8-9% for 35$. 35$ for two cases of an IMPERIAL PALE ALE?!? You can't find those prices anywhere. They usually cost 4-7$ for a single 22oz.

And whats even funnier is I am an extract brewer...I do the partial mash stuff but I only need 1-2 pounds of grains at a time to do that.

All grain brewers can make the same beers I make for a good 10$ cheaper at least because they can get their grains for ~1lb, whereas I am paying $2.50 pound but they need to use a little extra..

Anyway If you buy all your stuff online from the right places brewing your own beer is super cheap.

I'd buy from your LHBS for your first 5-10 brews...but after that you should have the hang of things and need to start ordering in bulk online.

Btw i live in an apartment so i can really get into all grain. And at this time i'm not quite sure i want to. I can't invest the money for the necessary equipment...and honestly I'm not to sure I want to deal with the extra work...

If anything in the future I want to get a turkey fryer kit so that I can make 10gallon extract brews (That would cut my effort put in by half because I would be getting twice the beer for basically the same amount of work...and I could brew less often)
 
So you're paying $2.50 a pound for grains but also say that you spend ~$2 a batch on steeping/partial mash grains? Less than a pound then? For hops I assume you're buying by the pound to get them under $1 an ounce.
 
By 2.50$ a pound for grains thats 2.50lb for extract.

yea the steeping grains are mostly roasted barley, blackpatent, chocolate malt, and crystal. Those are each about 1.50 per pound at the LHBS I may end up trying to purchase them along with my extract in the future but right now i use so little at a time. Its usually 1/3 pound to 1/2 pound of each for my stouts.

Then i buy a pound of pale malt or so to mash with oatmeal when I make my oatmeal stouts.

And yes I buy my hops from hops direct by the pound. I mean 1 oz of cascade is 2$ an oz at the lhbs. 1oz of amarillo if 3.75. I guy a 16oz of cascade for 9$ and 16oz of amarillo for 11.50$ from hops direct. Both pelleted.

You can literally save A LOT buy shopping in bulk online. And given I like making single hop india pale ales My constant supply of chinook, cascade, amarillo, and fuggles are plenty to switch between India PA, Imperial PA, American Stouts, and More english tasting Stouts...

My trappists are a bit mre expensive. I usually use a fresh vial of white labs chimay or trappist and have to buy the hops from my LHBS and then the damn candied sugar.. but I make them once in a blue moon.
 
As someone who is not yet a homebrewer (I've been on a work trip since I discovered this forum and I'm dying to get back home and try my hand at it) this discussion is similar to something that crops up on motorcycle forums

Every so often someone will post on motorcycle forums saying essentially "I don't have much money, can I save money commuting by motorcycle?"

The answer is usually as heated as this debate is. The cheapest way to get around is to buy a 10 year old corolla/civic. Motorcycles require more maintenance, tires are more expensive, you need to buy gear, and you really need to love it in order to not mind riding when it's cold/hot/raining/etc. However, if you both love riding *and* are willing to skimp and do things halfassed, you can manage to get it cheaper. (buy a 125cc scooter and a used helmet, don't buy good gear, things like that.) If you really love riding, you'll want nice things. Nice things cost money, and then it becomes more than just "cheap commuting", and as we all know, hobbies are expensive unless your hobby is seeing how cheaply you can do things.

It seems like this discussion is similar. If you just want to get drunk, malt liquor or cheap vodka is much less expensive than brewing beer. If you just want to drink beer, a case of decent beer at costco will get the per-bottle cost down to $1 per, without involving hours of work.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to brewing, I think I'm going to love it. I don't think I'll ever break even over what I'd pay per-bottle for deschutes or alaskan - I like gadgets too much.
 
akramer said:
As someone who is not yet a homebrewer (I've been on a work trip since I discovered this forum and I'm dying to get back home and try my hand at it) this discussion is similar to something that crops up on motorcycle forums

Every so often someone will post on motorcycle forums saying essentially "I don't have much money, can I save money commuting by motorcycle?"

The answer is usually as heated as this debate is. The cheapest way to get around is to buy a 10 year old corolla/civic. Motorcycles require more maintenance, tires are more expensive, you need to buy gear, and you really need to love it in order to not mind riding when it's cold/hot/raining/etc. However, if you both love riding *and* are willing to skimp and do things halfassed, you can manage to get it cheaper. (buy a 125cc scooter and a used helmet, don't buy good gear, things like that.) If you really love riding, you'll want nice things. Nice things cost money, and then it becomes more than just "cheap commuting", and as we all know, hobbies are expensive unless your hobby is seeing how cheaply you can do things.

It seems like this discussion is similar. If you just want to get drunk, malt liquor or cheap vodka is much less expensive than brewing beer. If you just want to drink beer, a case of decent beer at costco will get the per-bottle cost down to $1 per, without involving hours of work.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to brewing, I think I'm going to love it. I don't think I'll ever break even over what I'd pay per-bottle for deschutes or alaskan - I like gadgets too much.
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You get it. That is the way I felt right before I started. I feel it is the only way to go into it. Passion is what makes good beer. If it wasn't, no one would do all grain as it is much easier to drop a bag a malt into your pot.
 
AirBronto said:
You get it. That is the way I felt right before I started. I feel it is the only way to go into it. Passion is what makes good beer. If it wasn't, no one would do all grain as it is much easier to drop a bag a malt into your pot.
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So would it be far to say some ppl get into to brewing their own beer because they love doing it and some ppl get into to save money. But in the end if you like doing it your prob going to upgrade gadgets products etc. In the end it's prob. more expensive inless all you buy is 120 min dogfish head with is $160 a case . Witch is ok to do once in a while. But I still don't think you factor in labor as a cost.
 
monk420 said:
So would it be far to say some ppl get into to brewing their own beer because they love doing it and some ppl get into to save money. But in the end if you like doing it your prob going to upgrade gadgets products etc. In the end it's prob. more expensive inless all you buy is 120 min dogfish head with is $160 a case . Witch is ok to do once in a while. But I still don't think you factor in labor as a cost.
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Factoring in labor as a cost is silly. If you dont enjoy the process then dont do it.
 
That last post is self contradictory. You think factoring in labor is silly, but you agree that if you don't enjoy the process, you shouldn't brew. Well, if the labor is free, there would be no reason to discount the process as a way to get cheaper beer.

I agree with your second sentence. "because you enjoy it" is the only real reason to homebrew.
 
well if some one asked how much it cost to go fishing.I would add up equip/ gas/ I wouldnt count casting and realing in the line and fighting a fish. If i was fishing for 4 hours should i consider that in the cost. No because i enjoy doing it, same as brewing add up equip. and
ingredients but not the time of brewing it
 
Depends. If you caught no fish in 4 hours, would it still be cheaper than buying them on the store?

Which brings another point, "present value". I'd love some blended 1, 2 and 3 year old lambic. Sure I could brew it, but you have to agree, it's cheaper to buy and more practical... Three years from now, I might want a porter.
 
monk420 said:
well if some one asked how much it cost to go fishing.I would add up equip/ gas/ I would count casting and realing in the line and fighting a fish. If i was fishing for 4 hours should i consider that in the cost. No because i enjoy doing it, same as brewing add up equip. and
ingredients but not the time of brewing it
Click to expand...

What if they asked what the cheapest way to get fish was?
 
Flipping burgers for $ to purchase commercial beer might be the "cheapest" way to get beer, but find me a job where I can work any 5 hours/month of my choosing with no recurring commitments.
 
Bobby_M said:
What if they asked what the cheapest way to get fish was?
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Fly fishing from a stream in your backyard with a pole made from a branch blown off of a tree using butterflies that land on your head as bait. :p

Hey, you asked.
 
Bobby_M said:
That last post is self contradictory. You think factoring in labor is silly, but you agree that if you don't enjoy the process, you shouldn't brew. Well, if the labor is free, there would be no reason to discount the process as a way to get cheaper beer.
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Pardon my french, but.... HUH? I read this like 3 times and I still have no idea what you are trying to say. (Disclaimer: I have seen many of your various posts and happen to LIKE all the very helpful info you bring to the table, so do not take this as a personal jab).

I think I have commented before, but the logic on this just is weird. I guess this means when I buy a six-pack, I need to factor in the following:
- Prorated time & money it took me to buy my car that drove me there
- Prorated gasoline to drive my car
- The MONEY I used to buy the beer - I need to factor in the time it took me to earn that money, while I am at it
- The time it took me to drive to the store, and buy it, then drive home. I must factor this in or I am cheating I guess
- Prorated price of the bottle opener if not twist off
- Factor in the time it takes me to dispose of the bottles that I cannot reuse
- Prorated cost of the shoes, pants, shirt, jacket (if winter), sunglasses (if summer), and my stained hole ridden ginch. ALL of which I had to wear in order to get to the store

Did my point drive home yet? Probably not, since I am being a bit silly and I just drank a fullers ESB. I mean its just basic accounting - If you do not use the item on the balance sheet to make the company money in some way, you do not discount its cost!

FYI the ESB, It cost me $3.99 in canadian dollars. When I factor in alllll of the above - It actually cost me $27 for one beer. Ouch!
 
jjones17 said:
If you do not use the item on the balance sheet to make the company money in some way, you do not discount its cost!
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Correct, but in this case the company is you and the money (profit) is your personal enjoyment. Since all the things you listed were used in leading you to the enjoyment of the beer, yes, they all should be factored into the cost.

Either ignorance (ignoring something, not being stupid) or low self-esteem may be causing some brewers to discount their labor, but personally, I value my time. (Might be because I’m old and can see it running out.) I’d much rather use it doing something that I enjoy (like brewing), but regardless, it has value. Putting a dollar amount on that time may seem arbitrary, but it is an effective way of judging worth. If you say your time is worth $30/hr and you spend three hours watching TV, did you make good use of that $90? If you enjoyed the show and you can afford it, sure, it was worth it. So, sleeping 8 hours cost you $240, but it an unavoidable cost of living expense.

Not sure where I’m going with this argument, but I have to get some work done so that I can pay for my brewing time. :cross:
 
jjones17 said:
I think I have commented before, but the logic on this just is weird. I guess this means when I buy a six-pack, I need to factor in the following:
- Prorated time & money it took me to buy my car that drove me there
- Prorated gasoline to drive my car
- The MONEY I used to buy the beer - I need to factor in the time it took me to earn that money, while I am at it
- The time it took me to drive to the store, and buy it, then drive home. I must factor this in or I am cheating I guess
- Prorated price of the bottle opener if not twist off
- Factor in the time it takes me to dispose of the bottles that I cannot reuse
- Prorated cost of the shoes, pants, shirt, jacket (if winter), sunglasses (if summer), and my stained hole ridden ginch. ALL of which I had to wear in order to get to the store
Click to expand...

You double counted at least one thing there, so I question how hard you really worked on this.

Unless you have some sort of device that I don't have, there are 24 hours in a day. If you spend an hour going to buy a beer, is it not clear to you that you had to give something up to do that? An hour of TV, an hour with your kids, an hour of masturbation, whatever it is that you would have done. In order to spend an hour buying a beer, you must implicitly decide that buying the beer has some utility and there is no other use of that hour that has higher utility. If you are like me and at least for certain parts of the year can work as much as you want (and have variable compensation based on how much you work) then you obviously think the value of spending a marginal hour buying a beer is higher than the marginal wage you would earn for a marginal extra hour of work.

I have a feeling that if you ranked people in this thread by their opposition to the basic economic arguments being advocated and then separately ranked them by income you would see a very strong negative correlation.
 
The "labor must be factored in to any make vs. buy equation" is so difficult to understand when the labor itself is considered by some as leisure time/hobby. It's even harder when the person doing the figuring is one of those people. I think many of the folks who "get it" have really exhausted all the arguments and changing anyone's mind is inconsequential because none of us is going to argue against homebrewing. It's awesome.
 
I didn't think anyone was employed here since this is business hours and everyone is posting :p





If you go into this as a cost saving measure you will be disappointed. I do it as everyone else who homebrews for the enjoyment and relaxation it gives me. A few hours not thinking about work. I ride too, While yes the Harley gets great mileage it in no way saves me money. Its a money pit and so is this hobby.
 
Mathematically speaking you absolutely could save money. If you bought ingredients in bulk you could save a lot if you drink a **** ton of beer.

Realistically though I doubt just about anyone really saves any significant money. Expect to put in probably 3 hours per brew session of work and weeks of waiting for the beer to be ready. Also factor in the known fact that everyone and their brother is going to want free beer when they find out what you are doing. Nobody minds taking a sixer off your hands but they sure as hell won't be willing to donate cash for the next brew.

I'd say that's where most of my potential savings goes, to friends and roomies who drink my beer for free.
 
Just as an insight, I buy a 55lb bag of 2-row for 40 dollars, bought 4lbs of hops for about 46 dollars, I harvest my yeast, and my specialty grains cost about 4 dollars per recipe on average. I only get about 4-5 batches from one 55 bag. So, if you buy, say, 4 bags worth to use up all the hops, that'd run you about $64 (specialty grains), $160 (2-row), and 46 (hops). That makes about 16 five and a half gallon batches (not including yeast). So, only 270 dollars for 88 gallons of beer. That's about 915 bottles of beer. Let's say you buy a 24 case every two weeks. This would cover about be about 38 cases of 24 (76 weeks). If you pay about 13 dollars on average for that case of 24, you'd pay 495.73 on beer. Total saved (minus yeast and equipment): $225.73 (probably about 50%). Just know that you'll have to factor in equipment, time, and yeast to those equations and you'll probably break even in the first year or two of brewing (IFF you buy in bulk). After two years, assuming you don't buy equipment, I'm sure you'd save about 50% with those numbers. Keep in mind that the 4lbs of hops I bought were probably the 4 cheapest, so you'd probably have to add another 20-30 bucks in there, meaning you would only save about maybe 45% after two years. Add yeast in and it's probably be around 30-40% depending on what you are brewing and if you harvest your yeast. Hope this helps.

Moral of the story: yeah, sure you can save some money, but you have to buy in bulk and you really don't save money with all the stuff you have to buy. After two years, I'm sure you'd buy more equipment and replace old things. Your lucky if you break even.

Edit: this is also just assuming you buy cheap BMC beer, which is not the case for most brewers.
 
StarCityBrewMaster said:
I'm trying to search the forum but can't seem to find what I'm looking for.

I would like to brew my own beer, personally I favor something like a Newcastle nut brown ale.

I am curious what it would cost for me to do a typical brew like this and how much beer it would produce. I can buy a 12 pack at a local grocery store for $15-$16. If the cost difference isn't much to brew my own I'm not sure I have the time nor the funds to get started right now. If the cost difference is substantial then I am highly interested in home brewing!

Thanks for any info!
Click to expand...

Ahh - the ORIGINAL POST - Not really a Cost v Labor question -
more a homebrew ingredient cost v storebought cost question


StarCity - hope you had a fun time reading all the opinions and humor here. In the end, we all LOVE brewing beer, or we wouldn't be here. I think you get the win for one of the LONGEST threads in the Beginner section!:rockin:

:mug: So, forget the cost and start brewing! :mug:
 
Thought I'd bring one of my first ever threads (and one of the longest ever beginner threads) back to life just to thank everyone who expressed their views and opinions on this site!

I am now over 30 batches into my home brewing process! I went all grain by my 3rd batch, I am making beers that people can't believe are coming out of my basement and not a store, I think about and design recipes daily and brew about once a week. I am getting ready to start washing yeast and hope to upgrade my system to brew 10+ gallon batches soon as well as keg.

What all started as a "let's see how little we can spend to make good beer" has turned into "how can we start our own brewing company!?" The latter of the two is kind of a joke but that is literally how much I now enjoy the process and how much I enjoy trying all kinds of different beers in the world so that I can compare my creations to those that are making profits.

What once started as cost vs labor reasoning has turned into a "how can I continue to improve my efforts and make the highest quality beer?" Notice cost and/or labor are not anywhere in the second part of that sentence nor are they considered in our equation anymore. :)
 

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