Cost vs. Labor - Before I do anything!

[jjones17]

If you answer this question objectively, not as a homebrewer but strictly as a beer drinker, all costs including labor must be worked into it. If you skip it, you're cheating and you fail.

Lol! While I appreciate your opinion, I must completely disagree. I am not suprised you say this, since you obviously make a living in the beer industry. If its a job you HAVE to factor in the labour, since its part of your expenses on your income statement.

Just because a hobby costs money for supplies does not mean you HAVE to factor in your labour. If I go 20 minutes to my favorite liquor store that carries my favorite beer, I don't factor in my time on that side of the equation. Strictly as a beer drinker, all I have to do is this:

Buying beer all January (10 gallons): $150.00
Making beer in Febuary (10 gallons): $75.00

Something tells me the which of the above is cheaper. If I sit on my A$$ for 5 hours when I am NOT brewing, I hardly consider myself "Spending less on my cost of labour" LOL!!

Anyway, just my 2cents, do what makes ya happy! I am sure we all can agree making beer makes us all happy.

 

[Hang Glider]

I'm glad the OP got something out of this - however the TITLE of the thread is probably what got us so many pages deep with so much discussion.
Ingredient cost vs. a sixer is a whole different argument than "Cost vs. Labor"

 

[olllllo]

If the labor costs you all nothing, perhaps, I could get you all to brew beer for me, if I paid for the ingredients.... or better yet, why not open a brewery since your labor is free. You'll kick everyone's ass, those suckers have to pay wages!

 

[Chuck_Swillery]

If I sit on my A$$ for 5 hours when I am NOT brewing, I hardly consider myself "Spending less on my cost of labour" LOL!!

Hitting on something there - it all depends on how you value your time. Sitting in front of the TV all day feels like a waste of time to me and therefore is pretty friggen' expensive when I could be sitting in the garage next to a rolling boil, smelling hops, and laughing with friends. Far worth it to me to spend the time brewing. Can't says as I've ever had the sense of accomplishment by driving down to the local store and picking up a 6 pack as compared to grabbing something I made myself from the fridge. Negates the end cost of the product for me.

 

[NorCalAngler]

If the labor costs you all nothing, perhaps, I could get you all to brew beer for me, if I paid for the ingredients

I think you're being facetious, but the Internet doesn't translate context or sarcasm very well.

Since this is a home brew forum and it's illegal to sell home brew, labor costs don't factor into the equation at all. If we're all commercial brewers and had to pay wages to others or there are opportunity costs of not holding another job then labor would be part of the equation. I don't think anybody on these forums is staying at home to brew rather than working 9-5 other than a vacation day here or there for a brew day.

In the home brew world the ingredients necessary to make beer are far less than what you can buy comparable amounts of the final product for in the store.

 

[Synovia]

Golf isn't a hobby that produces a product that people buy. .

Neither is homebrewing.

 

[StarCityBrewMaster]

NorCal I literally laughed out loud at the name of the beer in your primary. That sounds exactly like my wife!

 

[Synovia]

99% of us can easily justify the hidden costs of this hobby because we so thoroughly enjoy it. In fact, I'd probably still homebrew if I gave most of it away. The decision to homebrew has to be based on the intrinsic enjoyment of the act of homebrewing because unless you consider your time worthless, ignore energy costs, and work with bare minimum equipment, it is not a cheap way to get beer.

Work it out like a school word problem.

What is the cheapest way to obtain beer, buy or make? If you answer this question objectively, not as a homebrewer but strictly as a beer drinker, all costs including labor must be worked into it. If you skip it, you're cheating and you fail.

Between the hours of 5pm and 8am, I am not being paid, so strictly speaking, my time IS worthless.


IE, there is no labor costs, because I'm not getting paid whether I'm homebrewing, sitting on the couch, out kayaking, or whatever. I have no interest in taking a job at night, so theres no lost wages or costs associated with the time itself.

 

[Synovia]

That's exactly what it costs to watch a movie. The cost of the ticket plus the marginal value of the time. You will only choose to watch the movie if the marginal utility of leisure spent in that fashion is greater than the cost. If you go to a movie rather than working, how can you interpret that in any way other than that you value going to the movie more than the money you would have earned by working?

This argument makes the fundamentally incorrect assumption that we all could, and should, be working 24 hours a day.


Does it cost me $400 to go to bed at night?

 

[NorCalAngler]

NorCal I literally laughed out loud at the name of the beer in your primary. That sounds exactly like my wife!

Sorry this is
My wife and most her friends don't really have hobbies so they just don't get it. It helped that our local news station had a special on brewing in Sacramento and the home brewing scene because it's beer week in Sactown. She'll be sold when I pour her a glass of the wheat beer I have on deck.

For whatever reason home brewing still has a slight back-woods, prohibition stigma even with people (my wife) that haven't thought about home brewing or met a home brewer (that they knew brewed) their entire life. During a work conference call the other day it came out that just about everybody on the call either home brews themselves or their spouse does.

 

[AnOldUR]

If I go 20 minutes to my favorite liquor store that carries my favorite beer, I don't factor in my time on that side of the equation.

So, if a liquor store across the street has the same beer as one across the state that beer costs you the same if you drive for 2 hours to get it or if you walk for 5 minutes?

If I sit on my A$$ for 5 hours when I am NOT brewing, I hardly consider myself "Spending less on my cost of labour" LOL!!

The problem is that we live jaded lives. We consider leisure time a birthright. It’s easy to think that if you’re not "at work" there’s no need to do something constructive. The thing is, you have the potential to be productive, but you choose not to. If you’re watching TV, playing video or making beer, it’s costing you something in loss of potential. You can choose to ignore this, but it doesn’t change it.

Between the hours of 5pm and 8am, I am not being paid, so strictly speaking, my time IS worthless.

It's only worthless if you choose it to be. You could be working on your house, improving it's value. Doing maintenance on you car rather than pay someone. Get a second job. If you can’t find something productive to do, you’re not looking. Not saying you have to or should, just that you could.

Does it cost me $400 to go to bed at night?

Sleeping and eating are basic necessities that we work for. Video games and beer aren't.



I make beer, but I accept it's costs because I enjoy it and because I can.

 

[olllllo]

. I don't think anybody on these forums is staying at home to brew rather than working 9-5 other than a vacation day here or there for a brew day.

You just proved my point. If you will not take a vacation day to brew (I won't), then you accept that your working wage is too valuable to spend on brewing. In order for me to justify a vacation day to brew, I would have to find the experiece more valuable than what I can make working.

If you choose to take a vacation day then you feel that brewing is a good substitute for working. ie your brewing labor rate is less than your working wage.

With or without your agreement, labor economists can figure this out. It's not an opinion.

As wages increase, so does the opportunity cost of leisure. As leisure becomes more costly, workers tend to substitute more work hours for fewer leisure hours in order to consume the relatively cheaper consumption goods, which is the substitution effect of a higher wage.

Read more: http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_gu...icleId-9789,articleId-9781.html#ixzz0ggU72jdI
​

 

[Tripod]

Brown Ales like Newcastle are one of my favorites, too. I brew a Newcastle clone I call "Nearcastle" which yields around 2 cases (48+ bottles) for around $35.14 which comes to $0.65 per bottle or $7.80 a 12-pk. That cost includes shipping of the ingredients and it is an extract recipe which might cost a bit more than if i converted it to AG.

I'm not trying to save money at all by brewing my own but I do track my spending so I thought those numbers might help answer your original question. Naturally, I'm not accounting for time/labor in those numbers because I can't put a price on love.

Hope that helps...

-Tripod

 

[StAnthonyB]

This argument makes the fundamentally incorrect assumption that we all could, and should, be working 24 hours a day.


Does it cost me $400 to go to bed at night?

Depends upon how much you pay for rent. If you pay the average say $1500/month then it does cost you around $400/week to lay your head down (to factor in utilities).

 

[olllllo]

I'm not accounting for time/labor in those numbers because I can't put a price on love.

In some respects, you are.

What if the brew process took 19 hours of continuous labor? Would you agree that it bears a higher cost to you? What about 24 or 36 hours?

On the flipside, what if I had a free device that would cut your brewday to a quarter of what it is now with the same results? You could get done quicker OR you could brew 3 more batches. Wouldn't you say that your labor cost became cheaper?

 

[NorCalAngler]

I think a lot of the debate occurring is because a few people enjoy the healthy debate of economics, not because they actually believe what they're saying. The post a couple above mine talking about how we could/should all be productive in our leisure time, inferring we're all lazy and entitled is impractical at best and awfully arrogant and assuming at worst.

 

[olllllo]

I believe what I am saying because I just gave you a practical example. A vacation day is not worth a brew day for me. Not even close. I love to brew. Been doing it since ~95.

 

[StAnthonyB]

Brown Ales like Newcastle are one of my favorites, too. I brew a Newcastle clone I call "Nearcastle" which yields around 2 cases (48+ bottles) for around $35.14 which comes to $0.65 per bottle or $7.80 a 12-pk. That cost includes shipping of the ingredients and it is an extract recipe which might cost a bit more than if i converted it to AG.

I'm not trying to save money at all by brewing my own but I do track my spending so I thought those numbers might help answer your original question. Naturally, I'm not accounting for time/labor in those numbers because I can't put a price on love.

Hope that helps...

-Tripod

$10.50 for pale malt
$5.00 for crystal and specialty malts
$3.50 for hops

yeast... Well, I harvest that. So, what's that come to $19.00 for ingredients plus few dollars for propane. This is not assuming a payoff schedule for the one time fixed cost of certain equipment, which I have spent a decent dollar for.

I'd say I pay $22.50 or less to get myself 5.5 gallons of IPA.


Or, I could pay out $16 for a sixer of 12oz bottles.

 

[NorCalAngler]

I believe what I am saying because I just gave you a practical example. A vacation day is not worth a brew day for me. Not even close. I love to brew. Been doing it since ~95.

I only threw out vacation days as a caveat to the fact most of us don't brew during working hours because we have jobs. The vacation day issue is simply opportunity cost of using the time to brew vs. another leisure activity if your vacation is paid by your employer. That is, unless you're self-employed and the vacation day is costing you money.

 

[cimirie]

I think a lot of the debate occurring is because a few people enjoy the healthy debate of economics, not because they actually believe what they're saying. The post a couple above mine talking about how we could/should all be productive in our leisure time, inferring we're all lazy and entitled is impractical at best and awfully arrogant and assuming at worst.

As to a few of us enjoying a healthy debate on economics, I emphatically disagree!

 

[StAnthonyB]

I only threw out vacation days as a caveat to the fact most of us don't brew during working hours because we have jobs. The vacation day issue is simply opportunity cost of using the time to brew vs. another leisure activity if your vacation is paid by your employer. That is, unless you're self-employed and the vacation day is costing you money.

I figure most guys who brew here are not all that different in technique.


It's Saturday and I want an excuse to drink before twelve o'clock, so I invite some fellas over and drink/brew/shoot-the-breeze for 8 hours. What in the world else would I be doing on a Saturday?

I suppose I could drink beer and play softball, but what do you do when you run out of beer?!

 

[monk420]

labor shouldn't be factored in if you enjoy brewing and thats what u want to do on your day off so b it. I look at it like my garden i grow a garden to save money. I account the price of the seeds/fertilizer. etc. Then take into account that whats it produces is cheaper than me buying it. I don't count the time digging/watering picking as a labor cost because i enjoy doing it the same as brewing. If i didn't like doing it I would want to get paid or stop doing the hobby. So I think it's about you doing it because it's a hobby you like doing and saves money

 

[djt17]

It's Saturday and I want an excuse to drink before twelve o'clock

...and I thought I was the only one.

 

[Bobby_M]

What you're all saying is that you can't possibly fathom being a beer drinker that does NOT enjoy the process of brewing as hobby. As soon as your argument even resembles "but it's a hobby", you're not understanding that in a pure make vs. buy equation, enjoyment doesn't play into it. In order to understand the premise of make vs buy as a pure economics problem, you have to imagine the process as dreadful and boring as hard as that is to do.

Example. You probably all know that you can raise chicken/hens in the yard and eat the eggs and turn the crap into fertilizer for the garden right? What if you freaking hate the idea of having a chicken coop? You'd probably just rather go buy the eggs and fertilizer right? Why? It's a hobby.

 

[Tripod]

labor shouldn't be factored in if you enjoy brewing...

That's kind of what I was trying to say. I'm not really debating the economics of brewing. It is true that my time is valuable, very valuable, and if I could cut the time it takes to brew I certainly would. But I do not count brew-time in the cost because I freakin' LOVE to do it.

If I take a vacation day to do somthing I love (not that I do...just sayin'), what difference does it make if it is brewing beer or swingin in the hammock? Time is time and an hour of lounging cost the same in TIME as an hour of brewing if I consider it to be equally leisurely. If I do something as productive as brewing with the same hour of time then the economics of TIME lean in my favor...at least it does IMO.

But the point is true that if you are brewing to save time/money then it is not economical in that dry of a perspective. If, however, you brew for love then it becomes pricless.

-Tripod

 

[eppo]

i went back and read the original post. he was talking about cost. mentions nothing about cost of the labor to produce the beer.
so as far as I'm concerned, the cost is out of pocket expense. so it will cost you for equipment, it will cost you for ingredients. it doesn't cost me anything to sit in my kitchen and watch it boil. I'm not hiring anyone to brew my beer for me, so its not an out of pocket cost.

 

[olllllo]

The thread title is:

Cost vs. Labor - Before I do anything!

 

[eppo]

But that's not the question he asked.

 

[PanzerBanana]

Well you can certainly save in the long run if you reason the kind of beer you drink and figure how much it would cost you to buy 5 gallons of it.

Not counting any other tools I may need, just ingredients have cost me about $30-35.

The actual supplies though are a "hefty-ish" investment. When I got my tools, my local shop had a special. $159 for EVERYTHING.

I cringed at the price when I thought of it as a whole. But then I realized how much time and money it would cost getting everything individually.

As for labor. It's a lot of work, cleaning, sanitizing, cleaning some more, but if you enjoy it it's worth it. Just make sure to stay on top of cleaning and washing as you finish with particular tools. The leftovers of beer making will be a lot bigger pain if you put it off.

Plus you get to be creative. It's a kick presenting your beer to friend's that are beer lovers and having them rave over it.

 

[Bobby_M]

But that's not the question he asked.

Cost vs. Labor - Before I do anything!
I'm trying to search the forum but can't seem to find what I'm looking for.
I would like to brew my own beer, personally I favor something like a Newcastle nut brown ale.
I am curious what it would cost for me to do a typical brew like this and how much beer it would produce. I can buy a 12 pack at a local grocery store for $15-$16. If the cost difference isn't much to brew my own I'm not sure I have the time nor the funds to get started right now. If the cost difference is substantial then I am highly interested in home brewing!

The title plus the context implies that the OP realizes there may be a significant investment of time and understands that labor can apply to the equation. Of course, we all know that homebrewing is enjoyable and a great hobby, but I don't ever assume that as a given for everyone looking for cheap beer.

 

[AnOldUR]

labor shouldn't be factored in if you enjoy brewing . . .

Using that logic, if you enjoyed your job you'd work for free. All well and good until the rent comes due. :cross:

 

[monk420]

Using that logic, if you enjoyed your job you'd work for free. All well and good until the rent comes due. :cross:

If I enjoyed my job it wouldnt be called work. It's called work because you don't enjoy it

def.
la·bor
   /ˈleɪbər/ Show Spelled[ley-ber] Show IPA
–noun
1.
productive activity, esp. for the sake of economic gain.
2.
the body of persons engaged in such activity, esp. those working for wages.

 

[olllllo]

If I enjoyed my job it wouldnt be called work. It's called work because you don't enjoy it

def.
la·bor
   /ˈleɪbər/ Show Spelled[ley-ber] Show IPA
–noun
1.
productive activity, esp. for the sake of economic gain.
2.
the body of persons engaged in such activity, esp. those working for wages.

Soooo, as I understand it, you're able to make beer for economic gain (ie saving money) without labor by doing some magical incantation, called "It's a hobby"'

Why not make all labor a hobby?

 

[aa_atw]

As Mark Twain said when Tom Sawyer got all his friends to white wash the fence, "Work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do. Play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do." You can save considerable money if you belive that brewing is play and not work.

 

[Bacchus]

...and I thought I was the only one.

You only need an excuse if you care about what anyone else thinks. I learned to stop caring about that when I was about 30. LOL!!!

 

[BBKing]

Do you consider this Kit overkill for a newb like myself or about the best start I can get for the money?

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/everything-a-carboy-complete-brewing-package-equipment-kit-2.html

First off, I havent read through all 11+ pages of this thread. I apologize if I'm repeating what someone has already said.

Second, I LOVE Midwest Supplies.

I'm still stuck in the low world of extract brewing and I've yet to find a place that has lower prices on their products and ships for a decent price. Plus if I remember right, if your order is over 70 pounds, you only pay for 70 pounds when it comes to shipping.

I ordered 3 kits from them last week and the guy I spoke with was very knowledgeable and willing to answer questions. Some may find this annoying, but he also gave me an opinion on yeasts that I've been thinking about.

A few things I'd say about the equpiment set you're looking at:

12 oz bottles are nice to have for the higher ABV brews that you may do (in my opinion that means Mead). Otherwise, you're just asking for more work and find more space to store bottles.

Some may argue with this (it seems to be an ongoing argument with brewers in one of two camps) but the secondary fermenter isnt needed. Just use it as a primary and let it sit awhile longer.

Again, I love Midwest and HIGHLY recommend them.

Also, they do give away a lot of free/reduced price stuff when you order.

Get to brewing man. Do one batch and I guarantee you dont care if you save money or not

 

[BBKing]

Using that logic, if you enjoyed your job you'd work for free. All well and good until the rent comes due. :cross:

Jobs usually come with days off.

Days off are for brewing.

(Just messing around half pinted, I see what you're saying)

 

[Synovia]

What you're all saying is that you can't possibly fathom being a beer drinker that does NOT enjoy the process of brewing as hobby. As soon as your argument even resembles "but it's a hobby", you're not understanding that in a pure make vs. buy equation, enjoyment doesn't play into it. In order to understand the premise of make vs buy as a pure economics problem, you have to imagine the process as dreadful and boring as hard as that is to do.

Example. You probably all know that you can raise chicken/hens in the yard and eat the eggs and turn the crap into fertilizer for the garden right? What if you freaking hate the idea of having a chicken coop? You'd probably just rather go buy the eggs and fertilizer right? Why? It's a hobby.

Again, none of that is relevant ON THIS WEBSITE,.

 

[Synovia]

Sleeping and eating are basic necessities that we work for. Video games and beer aren't.

So, by your logic, it still costs me $400 to sleep, adn I could stay up all night and get that money back.


A human being can not live without leisure. If you were to work during all your free time, you'd pay for it with poor health.

 

[Dynachrome]

I am out of beer (eccept the two New Glarus - Unplugged, which aren't pallatable to me).

The economics.... Hmmn, I've so far been amazed at the quality of the home brews I've done. I bought enough materials, not including equipment, to make about 40 gallons for about $100. zthtz about what, 40*128 ~ 5000 ozs of beer. Rwich isz roughly 416 12 oz bottles.

Seriously, all the IPAs and Stouts etc. down at the grocery store run about $8~$10 per six pack. That $100 would only bring me home about 15 six packs. Even at case prices I think we're ahead.

Doesn't change the fact that I'm out of beer though....

I'm going to have to wash up some bottles though. My first All Grain is coming due.